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Random Chats > Fleming: The Man Who Would be Bond

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message 1: by Clive, Founder and Moderator (new)

Clive Lee (CoralHare) | 32 comments Mod
Anyone here watch the show? I myself liked the show, but I wonder how much of the show sensationalized his life.


message 2: by Janet (new)

Janet I also enjoyed most of the show, but preferred Nicholas Rankin's "Ian Fleming's Commandos: The Story of 30 Assault Unit in WWII".

Also Ben Macintyre's "Operation Mincemeat" which was briefly mentioned in the show.


message 3: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
There's also a Netflix documentary called, "Everything or Nothing: The Untold Story of 007"

And a TV movie made about his early years, entitled: "The Secret Life of Ian Fleming"; which painted him as a 'Walter Mitty' type figure. In truth he always did feel himself to be living in the huge shadow cast by his elder brother Peter.

Here's a slice of my personal admiration for Fleming's career: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 4: by Clive, Founder and Moderator (new)

Clive Lee (CoralHare) | 32 comments Mod
Thanks for the posts! I'll check out those recommendations. Sounds intriguing!


message 5: by Don (last edited Feb 27, 2014 08:07PM) (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments Dusko Popov was the WWII double-agent that Ian Fleming used as his Bond character. His book:
Spy/Counterspy: The autobiography of Dusko Popov is probably the best WWII espionage account I have read. This man was James Bond...only better.


message 6: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Feb 27, 2014 08:14PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
Well no, its not really that simple. Popov was just one figure from among a dozen or more influences, acquaintances, and role-models. Fleming supervised a sizable unit of men during WWII, he encountered all sorts of odd characters...and he also took into account other spy or crime characters written by other authors to concoct his invention.


message 7: by Don (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments If you read about the life that Popov led during his days as an MI6 double-agent, you'll see he truly was James Bond. Most spies stay under the radar, unobtrusive, blending in while gathering intelligence. Popov was wealthy, a womanizer, flamboyant, and daring. According to Popov's book, MI6 didn't actually trust him nor did the OSS and the FBI because of his flamboyance and wealth.

Being an author myself, I understand that any protagonist/antagonist you create draws heavily from people and characters you have met. In this case, I would say that perhaps 80 percent of James Bond is Dusko Popov.


message 8: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Feb 27, 2014 08:35PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
I hear you, and I appreciate your enthusiasm, but its really giving short-shrift to the facts. Its well established that Fleming drew from a dozen+ sources.

For just one example: Sidney George Reilly who very nearly, single-handedly seized control of Russia from the Bolsheviks. Just as flamboyant as Popov. Hard to top that legend. How many spies can you name who steal a regime away from a revolution and set themselves up as new ruler?

If I think about it, I can probably name at least 8 others off the top of my head. Corroborated by Fleming's own statements. Figure 10% of each of them into the mixture.


message 9: by Don (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments Honestly, you really have to read it. Then you'll see. Like I wrote, I know any character is an amalgam of traits and ticks and circumstances of people you have known. I get that.

But you can't come away from Spy/Counterspy and not see that this is 80 percent of the Bond character. In fact, in his book Popov states that Fleming was actually shadowing him as validation for MI6. They thought Popov was a triple-agent. His operations name was "Tricycle."


message 10: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Feb 27, 2014 09:09PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
Fleming also said that half --50%--of James Bond was based on Bulldog Drummond. The upper-half. He said the entire upper half of Bond's body and everything it did, was modeled on this famous, two-fisted detective. How do you account for that?

How do you account for his praise of William Stephenson, 'the Man Called Intrepid'?

"James Bond is a highly romanticized version of a true spy. The real thing is ... William Stephenson." --Ian Fleming

Ever heard of William Stephenson? Is there a bigger name in British Intelligence?

You just can't go overboard in your enthusiasm like you're doing. It omits too many other factors.


message 11: by Don (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments Read that book.


message 12: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Feb 27, 2014 09:35PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
Like I said, I appreciate your enthusiasm.

But I already know quite as much as I need to know of Popov, as far as this question of Bond is concerned. Frankly, I'm not very interested in the man personally (and that may stem from my lack of enthusiasm for biographies in general). The thing about D.P. is that this Fleming issue is usually the only connection in which his name ever appears. More data on this one individual ...just won't alter the rest of the landscape we're looking at here. Too many other figures in Brit history--actual Brits, not wogs--loomed large in Fleming's writing process, I think. Fleming's personality was formed most from his experiences in the 1930s. When his brother was rocking the globe and when he was covering Moscow trials and organizing the Home Guard. Remember too, that Maugham's 'Ashenden' was published in 1928. Fleming just didn't need to--nor would he have wanted to--rely on "80%" of any one figure to comprise Bond. He had too many aims to satisfy, he had too many affairs he was involved in. A rich and busy life.


message 13: by Don (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments Well, I can't convince Feliks, but everyone else take a gander at the reviews on Amazon --Here

Book description reads:
Spy/Counterspy by Dusko Popov

A wealthy lawyer, debonair ladies' man, consummate actor, and courageous gambler, Dusko Popov played the role of playboy among the top echelons of British society to become one of Germany's most trusted spies. In fact, he was one of Britain's most successful double agents (codename: Tricycle) and, some say, the inspiration for James Bond.


Read the reviews and judge for yourselves.


message 14: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Feb 28, 2014 10:14AM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
Well--like I said--it may be highly entertaining book and filled with "much" fodder-for-speculation..but you can't get over-dazzled by just one piece of evidence. Especially if there is other (equally significant) evidence which competes with it. If anyone is really interested in the truth behind the matter, they would not just read one set of book reviews on Amazon dot com. They would familiarize themselves with the life of Ian Fleming in general--his thoughts, his habits, they would read what he wrote about his career, his many relationships. They would look for records of his conversations and his interviews. They would look into criticism of his books; they would study the history of the unit he ran in WWII; and they would study up on early-20th century European espionage in general. After all that, I'd be mighty surprised if anyone still wished to claim there is --in this case--just one, lone, 'one-to-one relationship' between Popov and Bond. The evolution of this character is clearly a multi-faceted circumstance rather than just stemming from any one inspiration. Fleming himself confirmed that many times. I'm not being dismissive towards Popov--it's being nothing more than fair and open-minded, to admit that there are other interpretations.

p.s. not sure why you keep reminding us of Popov's codename?


message 15: by Doubledf99.99 (new)

Doubledf99.99 | 175 comments Glad to see you folks up and about, most interesting discussion, I kind of lean towards the view of Fleming's vast array of experiences his network of peers/friends and acquaintances that he used for his model of Bond.


message 16: by Jerry (new)

Jerry (banjo1) | 42 comments Feliks wrote: "Fleming also said that half --50%--of James Bond was based on Bulldog Drummond. The upper-half. He said the entire upper half of Bond's body and everything it did, was modeled on this famous, two-f..."


Stephenson was a fabulous figure, but his biographer, William Stevenson, gilded the lily unnecessarily. He should have left well enough alone. But who can ever do that?


message 17: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 467 comments Mod
How annoying that their names are so similar!

Its like saying hey, I'm Joe Roosevelt, please buy my biography about Teddy Roosevelt (no relation!)


message 18: by Jerry (new)

Jerry (banjo1) | 42 comments Compounding the problem is Stevenson dabbled a bit himself in the spy game.


message 19: by Don (new)

Don Satalic (donsatalic) | 32 comments Feliks wrote: "Well--like I said--it may be highly entertaining book and filled with "much" fodder-for-speculation..but you can't get over-dazzled by just one piece of evidence."

Here's another source, besides Spy/Counterspy: The autobiography of Dusko Popov and Codename Tricycle: The true story of the Second World War's most extraordinary double agent:

Double Cross: The True Story of the D-Day Spies by Ben MacIntyre (also author of Mincemeat and Agent Zigzag) devotes the first chapter of his book to Dusko Popov. Here's the very first paragraph describing the lifestyle and friendship with Johnny Jepsen, an Abwehr operative:

"Dusko and Johnny were friends. Their friendship was founded on shared appreciation of money, cars, parties, and women, in no particular order and preferably all at the same time."


Popov was an international businessman and playboy, as described by Ben MacIntrye and others. Tar Robertson, the architect of the British "Double Cross" system, which controlled every German agent in England, met Popov in the Savoy Hotel and welcomed him into the network, giving him the codename "Skoot." Popov was a deep- cover double agent with an outlandish lifestyle.

Sound like someone we know?

Of course, as a writer, I know any character is an amalgam of people we have known or researched. But Popov exhibits so many of the characteristics of Bond--wealthy, international playboy, double agent--it's hard to imagine he was not the basic outline for that character. In fact the sketch Fleming drew himself of the James Bond character looks amazingly like a youthful Popov.


message 20: by Adam (new)

Adam Chance | 12 comments I found an interesting fictionalised(?) account of an operation in which Fleming participated. In the 'look inside' feature it is quickly apparent that the author held Fleming in little regard.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clash-Baltic...


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