English Mysteries Club discussion

Oh good. One that I already have (and hadn't read yet)!

Hahaha - I just realized that we read the first book in this series in March 2013!

Hooray!

Jean-Luke wrote: "The March 2014 Book of the Month winner is Enter a Murderer by Ngaio Marsh. Discussion opens on the 15th."

Congratulations to Ngaio Marsh!

Yes, I just finished rereading this book. One of my favorite authors. Great choice.

Oh, what fun. I love Marsh!

I've just started reading this and am looking forward to the discussion later in the month.

Great choice. Am looking forward to reading this. Think I've neglected quite a few 'classics'

I don't think I've read the first in the series, and I am a fanatic "read in order" person. Will I be missing much by jumping into the series at #2?

I am re reading the first one now. I am a read in order person too. In my humble opinion I would read the first one first to get a good idea of the main characters. It is not a long or hard read. Very fun.

Carol/Bonadie, you could probably get through both the first and second books in the series in a month. On the other hand, I don't think you'd be lost if you started with the second one. I'm pretty sure I started in the middle somewhere, though as that was over 30 years ago, I can't remember for sure.

The Bookwyrm's Hoard wrote: "Carol/Bonadie, you could probably get through both the first and second books in the series in a month. On the other hand, I don't think you'd be lost if you started with the second one. I'm pretty..."
I agree that it is useful to start at the beginning of a series and read in order as you get the development of the regular characters.

In Enter a Murderer I was shocked in one scene by Alleyn's behaviour towards one of the female characters - until I remembered that he wasn't in a relationship at this point as it was only the second book!

I also hate reading a series out of order. Luckily, I had read the first one. I thought this was an enjoyable mystery and loved the way Alleyn became annoyed by all the theatrics :)

I thought Alleyn's behavior odd and he is rather abrupt with his friend. I have liked the two books I've read so far in the series and will read the rest eventually.

Yes, although Nigel is his friend, he is always aware that he is a journalist, isn't he? Plus, of course, that he is such good friends with one of the main suspects.

Especially in the beginning of the series, I'm not sure whether Alleyn looks down on Nigel because he's young or because he is a journalist!

Perhaps both? Yes, of course he is very much the adult, sending Bathgate off on errands.

Yes, I don't think he looks down on him as in despising him, but just rather as though from a great height as an adult!

I like the way Marsh really makes us see the characters, not only in their flesh but in their movements and theatrics. She mentions "the best of her six by-the-mantelpiece poses" and I knew exactly what she meant.

I was massively put off this author by the first book - I found the explanation of how the murder was done to be totally unbelievable and so have not wanted to read another. Is this one any better?

The series of books get much better as they go on, Marsh develops her characters into more personal personalities. She starts blending the social status of the day in a better light. Not so affected as the first few of her books.

I will certainly read on in this series - I love Golden Age authors and the affectations and plot implausibility didn't worry me in the first book. Or, indeed, this one.

Penny wrote: "I was massively put off this author by the first book - I found the explanation of how the murder was done to be totally unbelievable and so have not wanted to read another. Is this one any better?"

This murder is more probable imo. I agree with Jenny that Marsh improves as the series progresses (and Nigel Bathgate disappears), so you might want to jump to a later book rather than reading this second in the series.

Leslie wrote: "Penny wrote: "I was massively put off this author by the first book - I found the explanation of how the murder was done to be totally unbelievable and so have not wanted to read another. Is this ..."

that s a good idea !

Loved this book. I would have finished it in one day had I not been repeatedly interrupted. I listened to it and highly recommend the audio version!

Leslie, I'm quite sad to think that Nigel Bathgate disappears. What a great name for a character, quite aside from anything else?! However, I am so glad that I finally got around to the second book, after reading the first ages ago. I would certainly like to read on.

Oh Susan, I didn't even think about that being a spoiler! Don't worry though as Alleyn gets some wonderful new people :-)

No, it wasn't a spoiler. Bathgate isn't a main character - just a foil. I really like mysteries from this era.

I actually enjoy Alleyn's arrogance in spots. It is so different from today's conflicted lead detectives.

Am about two thirds through, can't say it's inspiring me to read any other of her books tho. I dislike Alleyn, find him far too glib and supercilious. Sadly it's just too dated now. Not convinced procedures at the time would have allowed a journalist who was also acquainted with the cast to have been actively involved in the investigation!

G wrote: "I actually enjoy Alleyn's arrogance in spots. It is so different from today's conflicted lead detectives."
I agree. I've read books where the detective's dark private life is as important as the mystery but not nearly as interesting.
Enter a Murderer is dated but for me it's fun to read noir. It's usually not as grisly as some of today's books.

I think Golden Age fiction was more of an intellectual puzzle - a whodunit. They were never an attempt to replicate police work. It was more the gentleman amateur.

Re-reading this, I was surprised at Alleyn's facetiousness. I always think of him as intelligent but rather sober, especially as regards to Troy (who's not in this one). I plan on reading the rest of them again to see if he changes or I do!

Susan wrote: "I think Golden Age fiction was more of an intellectual puzzle - a whodunit. They were never an attempt to replicate police work. It was more the gentleman amateur."

I think that this was true even in books (like this one) which featured police inspectors. I have come to a point where I am tired of the (probably more realistic) gritty details of how life as a police detective means depression and failed personal relationships - I want the puzzle!

I have heard current authors criticise Golden Age books for not being realistic, but I think they are missing the point. They are a brain teaser - even the crime, however grisly, is usually presented as a 'fact' and the person 'done away with' is often the least likeable character. In this book, the victim is presented as being boorish and a possible criminal, before meeting a sticky end! I like both modern crime and Golden Age mysteries, but I approach them in different ways, as they are totally opposite in the way they are written. Like you, Leslie, I enjoy the puzzle.

Finished it last night, and I did enjoy the way it unravelled. Her writing is certainly economical, as it packs in all the facts and is quite a speedy read. An entertaining puzzle.

Susan wrote: "I have heard current authors criticise Golden Age books for not being realistic, but I think they are missing the point. They are a brain teaser - even the crime, however grisly, is usually presen..."

One of the reasons I love Patricia Wentworth's Miss Silver mysteries is that no one nice ever gets killed or turns out to be the murderer, and there is always a 'happy' ending. Pure escapism!

Sarah wrote: "Susan wrote: "I have heard current authors criticise Golden Age books for not being realistic, but I think they are missing the point. They are a brain teaser - even the crime, however grisly, is ..."

Oh I love the Miss Silver books too! But they definitely followed a pattern with a romantic subplot which Miss Silver helps along :)

I love them too - and Christianna Brand and Nicholas Blake are also real favourites of mine.

Hi Everyone, I'm de-lurking here because I've finally been able to read a book at the same time as the rest of the group - yay!

Totally agree about Golden Age mysteries' being about the puzzle -- John Dickson Carr is a great example of this, IMHO -- but the other thing that's fun about Marsh is that she set so many Alleyns in the theater world. So they're an interesting look at London theater life during what was a particularly vibrant period.

Millicent wrote: "Hi Everyone, I'm de-lurking here because I've finally been able to read a book at the same time as the rest of the group - yay!

Totally agree about Golden Age mysteries' being about the puzzle -- ..."

Welcome Millicent! I have a Carr book that I just never seem to find the time for sitting on my bedside table - you have inspired me to move it up in priority :) (the book is The Three Coffins by the way)

I do like the theater slant in many of Marsh's books. And I love the names of the theaters - the Unicorn, the Dolphin, etc :)

I give it a three but it probably should be three and a half. This just isn't Ngaio Marsh's best book but is certainly worth a read if you are a fan of her and of golden age mysteries. It is all very theatrical, as her early books tend to be, and that is not a bad thing. She does it well. Her characters all develop as time goes by. The later books in the series feature a much more interesting and likeable cast of characters. Still, I did enjoy reading this one.

Sharla wrote: "I give it a three but it probably should be three and a half. This just isn't Ngaio Marsh's best book but is certainly worth a read if you are a fan of her and of golden age mysteries. It is all ve..."

3½ stars is probably right - I rounded up because I like the series and style...

Laura wrote: "Sharla wrote: "I give it a three but it probably should be three and a half. This just isn't Ngaio Marsh's best book but is certainly worth a read if you are a fan of her and of golden age mysterie..."

I liked your first two choices very much but haven't read the third, Night at the Vulcan. It's nice that there are still a few I haven't read. Scales of Justice and A Surfeit of Lampreys stand out in my mind although I can't really say why.

It is reassuring that most of you think this series gets better, as I have enjoyed the two we have read so far. I must now make the effort to read number three, before I get side-tracked by all those other books calling for my attention.

Sarah wrote: "Susan wrote: "I have heard current authors criticise Golden Age books for not being realistic, but I think they are missing the point. They are a brain teaser - even the crime, however grisly, is ..."

I love Miss Silver, too; she's so trustworthy!

And are modern crime books realistic? I think not.

John wrote: "And are modern crime books realistic? I think not."

I think many people would say that they are more realistic than the Golden Age mysteries. I am (thankfully) not in a position to judge!

Leslie - hmm. I think the charge of lack of realism often means that the older crime novels dealt with a higher social class of people than modern novels often do. But it seems to me that the people and society and relationships dealt with by Christie, Sayers, Wentworth, Crispin, even Michael Innes, are well-drawn and realistic, certainly as much as the hard-boiled school of the same period such as Chandler or Peter Cheyney. And modern ones include Louise Penny and her Gamache, Fred Vargas and her Adamsberg, and Sara Paretsky and V I Warshaski. All brilliant but not at all 'realistic'.

I suppose modern novels are more likely to have someone investigating a crime who should be there - a detective, the current vogue for forensic experts, etc. There are no more amateurs. At least in theory. However, cozy mysteries still utilise them, such as Agatha Raisin, as a sort of homage to Miss Marple. Sometimes, an outsider gives a different view to the crime. I like both the gritty, realistic kind of Jo Nesbo crime novel and Poirot or Wimsey (both of whom I adore). I do understand though, why some people say they do not like Golden Age crime as they find it unrealistic, even if I don't feel the same way.

Ngaio Marsh has certainly been an author much copied over the years, in that she tended to set her novels in particular places - a theatre, a nursing home, etc. P.D. James used that particular strategy to great effect, setting many of her crime novels in a closed community. That works well for the reader, with a select group of victims/suspects and an intesting location. I recently re-read "Malice in Wonderland," by Nicholas Blake. it is set in a very early holiday camp and, although the crimes were very low key, the setting was fascinating. Sometimes the books from that period are just interesting as social history.