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Barnaby Rudge
Barnaby Rudge
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Barnaby, Chapters 41 - 45
I really liked the following passage:"'I cannot talk to you, sir,' replied Lord George in a loud voice, and waving his hand in a disturbed and agitated manner; 'we have nothing in common.'
'We have much in common - many things - all that the Almighty gave us,' said Mr. Haredale; 'and common charity, not to say common sense and common decency, should teach you to refrain from these proceedings [...]'" (p.406)
Dickens is a master of dialogue and of drama, and here he voices truths that even today have not been grasped by everybody.
Yes Tristram, I noticed the same thing. Haredale should have been able to find. He's so hellbent that he is neglecting Emma too. That Mary Rudge must be something else!!
Joy wrote: "I thought it was interesting in chapter 45, all the discussion of what could be seen and what couldn't, by both the blind and the seeing."What I liked best about Chapter 45 was the sudden change in Stagg's manner and language once Barnaby was out of the way.
Christine wrote: "Yes Tristram, I noticed the same thing. Haredale should have been able to find. He's so hellbent that he is neglecting Emma too. That Mary Rudge must be something else!!"I should also have liked to know how the blind man and the mysterious stranger could have been more successful in finding Mrs. Rudge than Mr. Haredale. Otherwise this is just a plot element that is as hard to stomach as Mr. Chester's knowing about the trinket Hugh took off Dolly.
Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,here is another five chapters of Barnaby Rudge for us to exchange ideas on!
For starters, I have got two questions I cannot make head or tail of:
1) Mr. Haredale now sp..."
Tristram
Haredale's nightly waits suggest to me that he suspects someone must come, under the cover of darkness rather than in the light of the day, to visit or meet with the Rudge's. By leaving a light on, it would suggest to this mysterious person that (1) someone is home and (2) someone is awake. Thus, this mysterious visitor would be attracted (like a moth) to the night light.
Gashford's evil manipulation of Dennis and Hugh reaches new heights, or is it depths, when he says to the duped duo "you may do as you please with [Haredale] ...provided that you show no mercy. You may sack [the house] but it must come down." This calculated anger reveals the hatred Gashford has, and as bad, the naïve and blind obedience of Dennis and Hugh. In earlier posts we discussed the character of Hugh and what he was capable of and under what circumstances. I think here, perhaps, rests much of the answer. Hugh is capable of anything, but needs very specific direction from someone he perceives as a leader, or person in a position of power he respects. When Gashford's evil and destructive personality meets and blends with a person capable of mindlessly carrying out any action, a truly volatile pairing is created.
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Pickwickians,here is another five chapters of Barnaby Rudge for us to exchange ideas on!
For starters, I have got two questions I cannot make head or tail of:
1) Mr..."
So then the person Mr. Haredale is waiting for is considered not to have any knowledge of the widow's flight and disappearance. Assuming this your explanation sounds logical. On the other hand, five years have passed by between the widow's leaving London and Mr. Haredale's lying in ambush. What can make him so sure that now somebody would show up who did not know about the house's being empty?
Peter wrote: "Gashford's evil manipulation of Dennis and Hugh reaches new heights, or is it depths, when he says to the duped duo "you may do as you please with [Haredale] ...provided that you show no mercy. You..."I do not know which of the two is more loathsome: Mr. Chester or Gashford. Exactly the scene you mentioned there, Peter, and what we can gather on Gashford's past through Haredale's words makes me tend to loathe Gashford a little bit more.
Tristram wrote: "In Chapter 41 Haredale says that he has many times undertaken to find out where Mrs. Rudge and her son might have gone, but never succeeded. Do you not also find it very strange that, as becomes clear in Chapter 45, a blind man and his companion - the mysterious highwayman - succeed in something a man like Haredale is incapable of?"
The same thought occurred to me.
I'm also wondering who they think Mrs. Rudge can get 20 pounds (a very considerable amount of money at the time) from. Mr. Haredale??? But if so, that will certainly tell him where she is, which she obviously wants to avoid.
Joy wrote: "Can someone remind me where this Hashford character came from? Is he the secretary? And why does he hate Haredale? I'm getting all befuddled again. I'll just go sit in the corner wearing the dunce ..."I assume you mean Gashford? He's Lord George's secretary, but seems a very shady character. We find out in Chapter 43 that Gashford, Haredale, and Sir John Chester were all at school together, and that Haredale even then thought ill of Gashford, who we are told was a Catholic at that time but has not only become Protestant but is committed to attacking Catholics. Haredale says of Gashford, still in Chatger 43, "who in his boyhood was a thief, and has been from that time to this, a servile, false, and truckling knave: this man, who has crawled and crept through life, wounding the hands he licked, and biting those he fawned upon: this sycophant, who never knew what honour, truth, or courage meant; who robbed his benefactor's daughter of her virtue, and married her to break her heart, and did it, with stripes and cruelty: this creature, who has whined at kitchen windows for the broken food, and begged for halfpence at our chapel doors: this apostle of the faith, whose tender conscience cannot bear the altars where his vicious life was publicly denounced."
I wonder who, by the way, this "benefactor's daughter" he refers to is, and whether we will ever meet her or hear her story.
Tristram wrote: "So then the person Mr. Haredale is waiting for is considered not to have any knowledge of the widow's flight and disappearance."But considering that they fled five years ago, one has to wonder who would come looking for them that for five years had no idea they were not living there. Is this a person who just got out of prison, or just returned from a long see voyage (or even from transportation)? What else would explain coming to see them five years after they had left?
Mod
Hello Jonathan! I wondered where you were! I've been reading lots of the earlier posts for Oliver Twist when you were very active, so it's nice to meet you :)
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "So then the person Mr. Haredale is waiting for is considered not to have any knowledge of the widow's flight and disappearance."But considering that they fled five years ago, one..."
Everyman/Tristram
You both raise good points/counterpoints about the nightly waiting antics of Haredale (posts 11,16), especially the fact about the 5 year time gap. Could this be another Dickens time/direction confusion like the earlier travel route problem at The Maypole?
Well, we may find out why the mystery person, if he/she ever shows up, didn't know about the departure for five years.The perhaps more interesting question is why the house is still vacant. I believe we were told that it belonged to Haredale, and he was renting (or providing?) it to the Rudges. Do I recall that correctly? (Haven't gone back to check the text.) If so, then he's kept it vacant for all this time. But why? Is he hoping that they'll come back, even after this many years away and their clear desire not to be found easily (or he would have)? Is it guilt? He seems to be not in great financial shape, but he can afford to leave a rental property vacant, and deteriorating (as vacant houses do). Something seems very weird about this situation, and I hope Dickens comes up with some plot twists that make all this behavior rational, at least in the minds of the characters (even if we wouldn't see it as rational).
Tristram wrote: "I do not know which of the two is more loathsome: Mr. Chester or Gashford."I've come up with a theory on that. Quite a brilliant theory actually. Since Chester and Gashford are equally loathsome, I think that once upon a time a poor girl, perhaps a lady's maid, was taken advantage of, perhaps by the lord of the manor, and not having a husband, and finding herself pregnant, when she gives birth---to twin boys---leaves them at the front door of two separate town churches. One Catholic and one Protestant. One grew up to be the repulsive Protestant Chester, the other the exact equally repulsive Catholic Gashford. :-}
I also don't understand why now, after five years, Mr. Haredale has decided to stay in the house that Mrs. Rudge used to live in. Why would she return now? He seems to be waiting for the mysterious stranger, but from what I see in Chapter 45 the stranger seems to know she left the house five years ago. When the blind man is in the cottage with Mrs. Rudge he says:'Madam, my name is Stagg. A friend of mine who has desired the honour of meeting with you any time these five years past, has commissioned me to call upon you. I should be glad to whisper that gentleman's name in your ear.--Zounds, ma'am, are you deaf? Do you hear me say that I should be glad to whisper my friend's name in your ear?'
'You need not repeat it,' said the widow, with a stifled groan; 'I see too well from whom you come.'
Also, it doesn't appear that the stranger has been in prison or out of the country because the blind man also says:
"My friend is in a more destitute and desolate situation than most men, and, you and he being linked together in a common cause, he naturally looks to you to assist him. He has boarded and lodged with me a long time....
So we know that the stranger probably won't be showing up at a house that he knows Mrs. Rudge no longer lives in, Mr. Haredale wouldn't know that, but it still makes no sense that Haredale would now after all these years start watching for him.
I found this interesting in Chapter 44 when describing the homes of the poor people in London:Poverty has its whims and shows of taste, as wealth has. Some of these cabins were turreted, some had false windows painted on their rotten walls.....
I wonder why you would paint false windows on the walls, did they think it made their houses look better? If they painted these windows on the inside of their homes also they could paint pretty scenes in them as if they were looking out at a pretty countryside.
Kim wrote: "I also don't understand why now, after five years, Mr. Haredale has decided to stay in the house that Mrs. Rudge used to live in. Why would she return now? He seems to be waiting for the mysterio..."Kim
The specific details you give, along with the highlights, help me sort out what I will call the "five year gap." There is most certainly some link among Mrs. Rudge, Haredale, Stagg et.al. Time will tell. Also, earlier posts have mentioned that the book's title does not (to this point in the novel) seem to support any obvious reason why Barnaby Rudge merits the novel being named after him. Perhaps we are coming closer to finding out.
Only if they had access to a palette of coloured paint Kim! I think the point was that the interiors were so tiny, stuffy and unhealthy that it was just a psychological trick to make them think they were somewhere a little more spacious!Even in the 1960's in London, landlords were renting out "bedsits" - one room - without windows! My brother lived in one in Oxford Street (a famous shopping area in London). He got round the claustrophobic feel by hanging a curtain on one of the walls and it worked! I assumed it was a window and had to be shown the wall behind it!
Kim wrote: "I found this interesting in Chapter 44 when describing the homes of the poor people in London:Poverty has its whims and shows of taste, as wealth has. Some of these cabins were turreted, some had..."
Kim
Assuming the false windows were painted on the exterior of a house the reason may well be the "window tax" that existed in England until the early 1850's. Since homes had a tax levied according to the number of windows the dwelling had, many windows were bricked in or other such thing to lower the tax. In order to give the appearance of symmetry or just plain window-looks, the poor could create a window/block one in and save money.
Naturally, the rich really didn't care that much so the tax did not bother them so much. You can still see many homes where windows have been bricked over in less affluent areas, but very few/no grand dwellings will be scarred with bricks where windows should be.
It is hard to brick up a window and make it look natural. It only really works if you repoint the whole house at the same time. I live in a Victorian neighborhood. Most of the eliminated windows are to accommodate interior modernization. Added bathrooms and kitchens mostly. Improvements that require a solid wall. Rarely unnoticeable. The dedication to Mary Rudge is nice even if it seems strange . I have just decided that these people are good friends to each other and that's it. Life is that simple at times. They care. .. Warms my heart.
Kim wrote: ""My friend is in a more destitute and desolate situation than most men, and, you and he being linked together in a common cause, he naturally looks to you to assist him. He has boarded and lodged with me a long time...."
Which gave me a flash of insight. Might the blind man be the Stagg, the blind man of the cellar where the apprentices used to meet (back in Chapter 8)? And is the man he serves the same man who found lodging there in Chapter 18, after calling at Mrs. Rudge's house?
Kim wrote: "I wonder why you would paint false windows on the walls, did they think it made their houses look better? "Probably thought they made them look like houses instead of just like brick walls. There was a window tax in England, where every window in a home was separately taxed. Thus, poor people couldn't afford windows in their houses. But they probably wanted at least to give the impression of living in houses rather than in, say, stables.
The next section is where I fell head over heals with this book. I just wanted to say that.
I wondered briefly too about England's window tax, but I doubt very much whether that would apply in this case. Aren't we talking about poor people? They are unlikely to own their own homes, for a start! Working folk only started to become home owners in England in the latter half of the 20th century. Until then they rented.The window tax was really aimed at wealthy people. If you visit stately homes in England, you may see bricked-up areas which used to be windows. But I'm talking about country houses on the lines of Jane Austen's fictitious "Pemberley" here! (Plenty of real life examples still exist.)
Jean wrote: "I wondered briefly too about England's window tax, but I doubt very much whether that would apply in this case. Aren't we talking about poor people? They are unlikely to own their own homes, for a ..."I wonder how many dastardly landlords would brick up the windows of the houses that they owned, but had chopped up to make them rooming houses for the poor.
The window tax story has enriched my love love of the Beatles' TAX MAN. It's deeper than I thought.
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: ""My friend is in a more destitute and desolate situation than most men, and, you and he being linked together in a common cause, he naturally looks to you to assist him. He has boarded ..."I would assume that the blind man haunting the Rudges and the blind man in whose cellar the 'Prentice Knights used to meet are one and the same person. If you take a look at the illustrations in Chapters 18 and 45, you will probably find a close resemblence in the blind men.
If both men are Stagg, then it is also clear that the person whose name Stagg only wants to whisper in Mrs. Rudge's ear must be the hideous highwayman, who has also been established as somebody Mrs. Rudge has known for a longer time. The highwayman, in one of their conversations, threatened to take Barnaby off her, and the blind man uses the same threat against the widow - so he is probably acting on the highwayman's behalf.
I also think that only the highwayman would know of Mr. Haredale being a possible benefactor to Mrs. Rudge, and this explains why the extortion is for the vast sum of 20 pounds.
Tristram wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: ""My friend is in a more destitute and desolate situation than most men, and, you and he being linked together in a common cause, he naturally looks to you to assist him..."Tristram
Your logic makes sense, and the mists of who the highwayman might be are beginning to rise.
I'm reading BR on an ereader so I don't have reference to the pictures. I'm going to the library tomorrow anyway so now I have another purpose for my visit. Thanks for the tip.
Jean wrote: "Only if they had access to a palette of coloured paint Kim! I think the point was that the interiors were so tiny, stuffy and unhealthy that it was just a psychological trick to make them think the..."I paint windows. Some years ago I saw an old window in an antique store with some flowers painted on the glass. It gave me an idea, so I came home got an old farm window, and started drawing with washable marker. I draw what I want on the window, then flip it over and paint it following my lines, then I wash the lines off the front. When its done you're looking "through" the glass at the painting (usually a Christmas scene). That's what I thought of when I read this in the book. :-}
Christine wrote: "It is hard to brick up a window and make it look natural. It only really works if you repoint the whole house at the same time. I live in a Victorian neighborhood. Most of the eliminated windows ar..."Lots of buildings around here are like that. A lot of old schools or factories made into apartments. It looks dumb.
That sounds beautiful Kim! (And what a surprise that you paint Christmas scenes! LOL)I think the characters in Barnaby Rudge would be more likely to be painting on rotten decrepit buildings though, with no money to spare for paint, and just using whitewash, or whatever the equivalent was then. I could be wrong though, if they weren't so destitute - it's just an assumption. I can try to find out if you like - it is round here after all! Some of the houses still exist but not many, apart from "The Maypole" of course, as it's so historic.
As the paint was lead and very poisonous the poor were lucky by default! Kim, it's defiantly a PA thing. In the shabby chic years I think we were all ( crafters) were repurposing windows. I did a few on gallery glass ( squeeze on ). People were getting replacement windows in droves and old wooden ones were out every trash day. I still have a few in my garage loft waiting for that " project " I'm gonna do15 years ago!
Christine wrote: "As the paint was lead and very poisonous the poor were lucky by default! Kim, it's defiantly a PA thing. In the shabby chic years I think we were all ( crafters) were repurposing windows. I did a..."
I have dozens of old farm windows in the garage. I got so used to painting everything "backwards" to look at through the glass, that became my favorite way to paint. But once every wall had a painted window on it and they were stacking up behind the sofas, I quit painting them. :-}
Went back to look for something, and came back across this passage at the start of Chapter 41 which I liked at the time and like even more on re-reading it. I think it will have to go into my Commonplace Book among the passages I use to cheer myself me up at moments when I need cheering up. From the workshop of the Golden Key, there issued forth a tinkling sound, so merry and good-humoured, that it suggested the idea of some one working blithely, and made quite pleasant music. No man who hammered on at a dull monotonous duty, could have brought such cheerful notes from steel and iron; none but a chirping, healthy, honest-hearted fellow, who made the best of everything, and felt kindly towards everybody, could have done it for an instant. He might have been a coppersmith, and still been musical. If he had sat in a jolting waggon, full of rods of iron, it seemed as if he would have brought some harmony out of it.
Tink, tink, tink—clear as a silver bell, and audible at every pause of the streets' harsher noises, as though it said, 'I don't care; nothing puts me out; I am resolved to be happy.' Women scolded, children squalled, heavy carts went rumbling by, horrible cries proceeded from the lungs of hawkers; still it struck in again, no higher, no lower, no louder, no softer; not thrusting itself on people's notice a bit the more for having been outdone by louder sounds—tink, tink, tink, tink, tink.
It was a perfect embodiment of the still small voice, free from all cold, hoarseness, huskiness, or unhealthiness of any kind; foot-passengers slackened their pace, and were disposed to linger near it; neighbours who had got up splenetic that morning, felt good-humour stealing on them as they heard it, and by degrees became quite sprightly; mothers danced their babies to its ringing; still the same magical tink, tink, tink, came gaily from the workshop of the Golden Key.
That's a very endearing passage, Everyman, and it shows, does it not, what a fine man Gabriel actually is.
Everyman wrote: "Went back to look for something, and came back across this passage at the start of Chapter 41 which I liked at the time and like even more on re-reading it. I think it will have to go into my Comm..."Everyman: Gabriel is the calm before, during and after the storm. The passage you reference is perfect.
I, too, have a book where I enter passages/phrases and comments that I can then reflect upon whenever I want. The pages may be worn but the words are always fresh.
I love your ideas Everyman and Peter. I might just take that on board......thoughts to cheer an otherwise cheerless day.
Yes, I also wonder about Mr Haredale's presence in the erstwhile Rudge's house. As has been mentioned in a previous comment, I wonder if he harbours some sort of guilt towards Mary Rudge or does he in some way feel indebted to her?
Indeed Tristram, the passage (chapter 43) where we have the contretemps between Lord George and Mr Haredale is a very uncomfortable one. .......Lord George...."we have nothing in common." "We have much in common - many things - all that the Almighty gave us," said Mr Haredale; This strikes a deep chord with me. In the N.I. situation, even amongst friends, the religious divide still raises its ugly head. Everyone can be staunch friends until ........scratch the surface and old animosities, begun many hundreds of years ago may raise their ugly heads. I also wonder if Gashford is a Catholic in hiding. Some of the accusations flung at him by Haredale suggest that he is not a son and heir of the Protestant band.I found myself surprised to see that Gruebury helped Haredale into the boat. My memory had him as a step or two lower than Gashford in his connivings, but then I confess that I haven't checked back. Enjoying all your input. Thank you.
Hilary wrote: "I love your ideas Everyman and Peter. I might just take that on board......thoughts to cheer an otherwise cheerless day."Hi Hilary
Do buy yourself a journal/phrase book or whatever you want to call it. I can promise you it will always be a source of inspiration, reflection and joy.
I have a few journals - Jane Austen, Edgar Allan Poe, Lord of the Rings - however I'm yet to come across a Dickens one! If I did I would dedicate it to my thoughts on his novels and quotes. It's great to reflect back on, years down the track.
Hilary wrote: "In the N.I. situation, even amongst friends, the religious divide still raises its ugly head. Everyone can be staunch friends until ........scratch the surface and old animosities, begun many hundreds of years ago may raise their ugly heads."Yes, I noticed this with deep surprise. Like maybe more than half of the people in my native country I do not have very intensive religious feelings or attachments (although I do not like to see those ridiculed who do), but in N.I. they certainly do play a role. However I also think that there is as well a national conflict (Irish vs British / Scottish) and even a social one involved. I read quite a lot about the conflict, but the more I read the less I knew and understood for sure ...
Peter wrote: "Do buy yourself a journal/phrase book or whatev..."It's interesting to me that all the inspirational, uplifting quotes, poems, or stories I've written in my journals are about Christmas. Every single one of them. :-} Oh, and bible verses.
Tristram, a huge part of the problem is that people in N.I. don't comprehend the problems themselves. So many of us believe that we have it all signed, sealed and delivered, which couldn't be further from the truth. My husband did a Masters in Irish History (as part of his collecting degrees hobby.....he calls it 'death by degrees') and even he, who was fairly sure of his ground previously, was amazed at the meanderings and circuitous routes of our history. Nothing was set in stone.....like nailing jelly to a wall. Yes, the social aspect is still prevalent, though, thankfully improving over the years. I lived in London many years ago and I was definitely treated as the Paddy from the bog on many an occasion. English people seemed happy to tell me Irish jokes that were not funny, but usually had a sting in the tail. I have been over in London several times in recent years (my husband works there during the week and my older son is a student there); how things have changed! Those I have met are absolutely delightful and indeed a few of our closest and most loyal friends are English. As for Scottish/Irish rivalries, I have not experienced any difficulties. Perhaps, it is because we are Celts (though so are the Cornish) and we have a shared native language.Thanks for the idea, Everyman and Peter, of the book to cite references. I may have to limit myself to comic lines, as I fear I could probably end up reproducing every Dickens' novel!
Oh no, Tristram, I wrote a rather longwinded reply to your comment and it has disappeared into the ether. I shall try again later....
Hi Tristram, my last longwinded msg to you disappeared into the ether. I shall try to give a much foreshortened reply! It is a sad fact of life; also the social aspect comes into play. When I lived in London over 30 years ago, the English/Irish question was at its height. All Irish were, in general, treated with suspicion. I can fully understand this, as 'we' were the ones who were carrying out the atrocities! With hindsight, I would have felt as the English did. I got frustrated at the Irish jokes that were aimed at me with more than a sting in the tail. Having said that, I think that we Irish are pretty good at laughing at ourselves. It just depends on the context.In recent years I have been in London countless times. My husband works there during the week and my son is studying there. Attitudes have changed so much. For many years some of our closest and most loyal friends have been English.
It's a complex business. My husband who has a bit of a hobby in doing degrees (killing himself by degrees, he says) did a Masters in Irish History. He had been fairly sure of his comprehension of the N.i./Ireland situation until his world was turned upside down. He just does not believe anyone any longer who believes that he/she has a 'handle' on Irish history. People tend to absorb a set viewpoint from their parents and peers (as with religion) and dare anyone question it!!!
Thanks Everyman, Peter and Kate for the journal idea. I like it! :-)
Hilary wrote: "Hi Tristram, my last longwinded msg to you disappeared into the ether. I shall try to give a much foreshortened reply! It is a sad fact of life; also the social aspect comes into play. When I li..."Hi Hilary,
your first reply actually did not disappear (cf. message 52); sometimes when you post a reply it just does not show up where you'd expect it to do.
I remember my first visit to Belfast, probably 14 or 13 years ago. Strangely I had always half-expected to find a city that was ravaged by war, with ruins and rubble in places but that was, of course, naive. In fact after a day or two, I found Belfast a safer city than, let's say, Frankfurt or certain parts of Berlin. But then I witnessed one of those Marches (I think it was organized by a Protestant group) and I sensed the tension that was everywhere. One of the eeriest experiences I have ever had.
here is another five chapters of Barnaby Rudge for us to exchange ideas on!
For starters, I have got two questions I cannot make head or tail of:
1) Mr. Haredale now spends the nights in the house where Mrs. Rudge with her son used to live. Does he expect somebody to illegally enter the premises and look for something there? And is this connected with the ghost story John Willet reported to him earlier on? Something must vex him quite a lot because his outward appearance has changed for the worse. Another question in that context: If he is waiting for somebody, trying to catch this person unawares, why then does he leave a light on instead of lurking in the dark? I mean Gabriel can see the light from outside and so would whoever Haredale is waiting for. Maybe he rather wants to scare somebody off?
2) In Chapter 41 Haredale says that he has many times undertaken to find out where Mrs. Rudge and her son might have gone, but never succeeded. Do you not also find it very strange that, as becomes clear in Chapter 45, a blind man and his companion - the mysterious highwayman - succeed in something a man like Haredale is incapable of?