Dubuque Virtual Book Club discussion

For our first book discussion we're going to be looking at the 2013 Nebula Nominees. Pick one or try to read them all, and then we can debate their merits. It's an interesting mix of science fiction and fantasy, with a diverse group of authors both familiar and new. Most titles should be available through Carnegie-Stout.

Note! Make sure to use the "mark spoiler" feature in your discussion! If you're not sure how to do this, please ask.

2013 Nebula Nominees:
We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves by Karen Joy Fowler
The Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman
Fire with Fire by Charles E. Gannon
Hild by Nicola Griffith
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
The Red: First Light by Linda Nagata
A Stranger in Olondria by Sofia Samatar
The Golem and the Jinni by Helene Wecker

So far I've read two of this year's Nebula nominees, including The Ocean at the End of the Lane, which was my first ever experience with Neil Gaiman's writing. Wait, I take that back. I did see the episodes he wrote for Doctor Who (liked The Doctor's Wife, mixed on the Cybermen one).

I enjoyed Ocean. It was such a fast read, I don't think I appreciated at the time how much I did enjoy it. It was very dreamlike, both in mood and in that it's very hard to talk about without sounding like you're describing this crazy dream you had the night before. I could see this being a book that kids have to read and identify symbolism in for an English class, but I'm not going to make anyone do that here :p

I also read Ocean at the End of the Lane, though I come at it as someone who's read a lot of Gaiman (which Sarah already knows as I've pestered her to read more of his stuff for a long time).
You can always count on him for some very carefully constructed symbolism and, I dunno, capitol-M Meaning. I can totally see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I like it. It's all very steeped in myth and fairy tales.
The part where Gaiman has sometimes disappointed me in the past is structure. His first couple novels very much read like they'd been cobbled together by someone more accustomed to short stories and comic books. They were full of great moments and ideas, but didn't quite feel like a unified novel. I was really happy not to feel that at all with Ocean.

The other thing on this list I've read is Ancillary Justice, which I'm not even certain how to talk about. I loved it, and found myself thinking about it for days after finishing, but I don't really feel like I've managed to convey my excitement to anyone. Surely someone else has read it and can help me out!

Ancillary Justice is totally the other Nebula nominee I've read so far, and I went on and on about it on the library's blog. What I liked was the balance between detail rich world building and a character focused story. Leckie measured out the details of her characters, the plot, and the world in easy to digest portions, avoiding the dreaded info dump. It was a little confusing in the first chapter or two, but after that it just sucked me right in. :)

So I chose to read the Gaiman book. I have not read anything on this list nor any book by Gaiman. I am about 40 pages in and so far I think it's odd. I'm not sure about this book yet. We'll see how this goes as I keep reading further.

I read The Ocean at the End of the Lane in about an hour and a half (okay not really) and very much enjoyed it. It's not my favorite Gaiman work or even my favorite of his novels, but it was excellently quick and thoroughly engrossing, too. I've always felt that Gaiman does scary well, and I know I found certain parts of the book effective in their spooky otherworldliness. I also think Gaiman is exceptionally good at embodying the child's voice and perspective, like he's got some sort of secret brain passage directly to that part of his psyche. (Probably this explains the success of The Graveyard Book, at least in part, I'd guess.)

Sarah, I agree that it's convincingly dreamlike in both plot and tone, which is to Gaiman's credit as well, I think. Andrew, perhaps its length (or lack thereof, as the case may be) aids it in the not-seeming-like-a-giant-pile-of-awesome-yet-unrelated-stuff department? Dawn, I'm curious. What about the book do you find odd so far?

AND NOW FOR THE SPOILERS!(-ish)(view spoiler)[The ending of this one ties everything up so neatly along with imbuing the rest of the story with some additional substance, and it almost serves to sorta fold the narrative in on itself, so I do wonder what it would be like to re-read this after knowing how the book concludes. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't read Gaiman/Ocean yet (or any Gaiman), but I did read The Golem and the Jinni a month or so ago. I'm not a sci fi or fantasy reader, but I loved that book. The characters were fantastic, and I think that's what appealed to me. Liked the plot, but the characters and their interactions really made it for me.

I have never read any Gaiman, but this group will probably change that. I have the Golem and Jinni on my list previously so I will probably try that one first and maybe move to Gaiman after that.

I did read We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves by Fowler last year. This book examines family relationships and how messed up they can be even when filled with love. Fowler also has a message about ethics in scientific research using animals and a look at how society views anyone who seems too different. The narrator of the story Rosemary is raised in a scientific family where even children can be test subjects. As you can imagine this leads to some dysfunction and confusion within the family and some negative repercussions as Rosemary and her siblings grow up.

I don't want to give too much away, but Rosemary is such a gregarious girl that her parents often tell her to "skip the beginning, start in the middle" when she has a story to tell. This book is constructed similarly, beginning with Rosemary in the middle of her life as a young adult. As the story unfolds you are taken back to the events that lead up to present.

This book is a fairly fast read and combines my love of both literary fiction and mysteries.

The Golem and the Jinni is one of those books that catches my eye over and over but never quite propels me to check it out. What's it about?

The Golem is created for a man who is too undesirable to find a wife on his own. He takes her to the United States for their new life, and her part of the story is about the people she encounters, and how she adapts to, well, being alive. She has to learn fast, as her husband dies en route (not a spoiler--this happens almost immediately, possibly even first chapter).

The Jinni also ends up in New York, after being held captive for many years, and his story is also about the people he encounters (including Chava, the Golem). It's hard to explain. The paths of the some of the characters intertwine. It's a little mystical, a story about different cultures, how characters can learn and change. It's fun, and also thought-provoking. Very well-written.

So I finished the Gaiman book tonight. It was my first time reading anything by him and it might be my last. I didn't enjoy this book at all. If it hadn't been so short I probably wouldn't have bothered to finish it. For me I didn't like the story, I didn't particularly find it interesting. And it was very odd in that reality and fantasy intertwine and it's hard to know one from the other. If I read fantasy I really prefer the whole thing to be in a fantasy world or for the "real" world and the "fantasy" world to be clearly defined. I also didn't like the tone of the book - too menacing and melancholy. I was glad to be done with it.

That does sound interesting, Sheryl! Maybe once I give up on the terrible book I've been trying to read I'll give it a try.
Dawn, Ocean at the End of the Lane is certainly in keeping with the rest of Gaiman's adult writing, so you're probably right to give those a pass. His YA stuff is generally less dark and, I dunno, ambiguous? It doesn't mix "real" and fantasy the same way.

Because we're new at the whole virtual book club scene, we're still figuring out how best to run this. That means we're making a small change to our first discussion: the discussion period for the 2013 Nebula Nominees is now extended through April.

This will give everyone a chance to read a second (or third!) nominee, and will let us pick our May discussion before May! Expect a poll to pick our May topic to go up sometime next week.

Thanks Andrew. I might check out some of Gaiman's YA stuff one of these days. We'll see!

Andrew, which YA stuff are you thinking of?

Hooray for extended deadlines!

Both Coraline and Graveyard Book (his two biggest YA titles) start in the "real" world and then get fantastical, but it's not quite the same. In Coraline there's a very specific gateway between the two. In Graveyard Book you're very quickly made aware that this is a world where ghosts and such are a possibility. Whereas Ocean at the end of the lane spends a long time walking the edge of "Wait, that's weird. Was that magic? Surely not!"

I'm listening to The Ocean at the End of the Lane. Some authors make lousy narrators--not Gaiman; his voice is mesmerizing. This is probably not a book I'd pick up and read on my own so I'm anxious to see if I will reach a point where I want to quit listening. So far it reminds me of The Night Circus. I don't know what's real and what is not.

I've definitely heard good things about Gaiman as a narrator (Kate Leth comic, her site is sometimes NSFW), but it's nice to hear that it's true!

Since we've extended our Nebula nominees discussion through April, are any of you planning on reading a second (or third!) nominee? Which one?

I'm thinking about Fire with Fire or maybe The Golem and the Jinni.

I tried to check out The Golem and the Jinni, but all our copies are out. And now I've gotten distracted by a weird book about bees.

I finished The Ocean at the End of the Lane and liked it quite a bit. I didn't even try to figure out what was real and what wasn't or who/what Lettie and her kin were--just went with the fairy-tale flow. I liked Gaiman's writing very much.

I have the ebook of The Golem and the Jinni checked out but its going to expire soon so I don't think I'm going to get to it.

Jamie Lynn wrote: "I have had Hild on my To Be Read shelf for awhile. I will check it out when it's available."

Ooo! I'd love to hear your thoughts on Hild. I've read good reviews, but I was intimidated by the length.

I've decided to follow MO's lead--I like The Ocean, I didn't want it to end, and I don't need to know what's real and what's not. Maiden, mother and crone--that I would like to know more about. Can I find more Hempstocks in other Gaiman books? I want Lettie to come back from Australia where she never went in the first place.

I don't think he's ever used the name Hempstock before, but he's used the maiden, mother, and crone before -- certainly in his Sandman comics series, probably in American Gods. If you'd really like to fall down an Internet rabbit hole, you could browse through the TVTropes page for The Hecate Sisters. Be warned that TVTropes ranges far and wide across all media and can contain all sorts of NSFW language and topics.

Re your question, Sarah, I really should read Ancillary Justice, as people I hold in high esteem have recommended it and it sounds pretty interesting. I've been on a text-book break (mainlining the audio instead) but I might have to make an exception for this one.

Wow, so behind. I told myself to finish the Tournament of Books before I jumped into this. Now I am done. Hurrah!

The only of these I've read is Ocean. I've read some Giaman beofre and it's been hit or miss for me. I loved Stardust and Anansi Boys, and Coraline. I didn't care for The Graveyard Book, and I'm not sure I gave American Gods a fair shake. That said I expected to like Ocean. I didn't as much as I wanted to. I love fantasy and they way he pulls read and magic together. I'm a huge fan of urban fantasy and Charles de Lint. But what I didn't get from Ocean was answers. And that is what ultimately bothered me about the book.

I'll have to figure out which of these to try next.

At least the tournament included one of these titles, so you're already on the map!
de Lint's been on my to-read list forever. Any starting point recommendations?

I really liked Onion Girl and Blue Girl. Anything with Jilly is good. :)

Andrew, I love the really old de Lint--Yarrow, Moonheart, Greenmantle. It's been at least twenty years since I read them. I wonder how they hold up. This is around the same time I was reading Tailchaser's Song and started the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series.

I started The Golem and the Jinni last night. I read enough that I want to continue. Genies I had heard of (I've watched Aladdin with my granddaughters and not to forget Barbara Eden and Larry Hagman!), but my knowledge of golems is limited to the "my precious" gollum from The Lords of the Rings. Maybe not the same creature? Dobby from Harry Potter is a house elf, not a golem, but there's a whole discussion thread about who would win a fight between Dobby and Gollum.

You know, I'd never thought about a possible connection between golems and Gollum. Tolkein was certainly careful careful enough in his naming and world-building that I'd hesitate to dismiss it as a coincidental homophone. But, that said, I have a hard time thinking of ways one informs the other.
The golem story I've seen most widely discussed and referenced is the Golem of Prague. Well, unless you count Frankenstein's monster as a golem, which is a workable argument.

I just checked out Gaiman's The Ocean at the End of the Lane, so it's next for me to read! Since it was also in the Tournament of Books, I was always curious about it.

As Sarah knows, I have special attachment to the Golem and the Jinni - it was written by a high school classmate of mine! I very much enjoyed it even though that is not my usual kind of book. However, I did think it was very Jewish (being Jewish myself). So I am curious as to what non-Jewish people think of it. My copy is currently with a non-Jewish friend who is enjoying it, too.

I agree with Mike, I just finished Ocean and it was really hard for me to put it down. I loved all of the details and I felt I was actually there in the story. I was curious about it and was actually very surprised how much I enjoyed it.

Hi Everyone!
The winners for the 2013 Nebula award were announced last night, and in the novel category Ancillary Justice took home the prize! You can check out the full list here: http://www.sfwa.org/2014/05/2013-nebu...

And if you're curious about the short fiction categories, Carnegie-Stout has the 2014 Nebula Award Showcase, which has always been one of my favorite ways to find new authors.

Oh crud, I really really need to read that.