Richard III discussion

Just about halfway through reading The King's Grave, I have to admit I did get excited when they discovered Richard III. Just recently I become thoroughly interested in his life (after watching the White Queen) I admired how admirable and loyal he was portrayed in the film and had to find out more. Since then I have sort of developed a mild obsession with him (weird I know!) I have read The Sunne In Splendour & a few of Philippa Gregorys books and am now as I say half way through King's Grave. I just want to know what other people's thoughts are on the book? Did you experience emotions reading about his wounds and how he would of gotten them? (That is the part I am up too) and I feel so queasy & sad.

Carisse wrote: "...Since then I have sort of developed a mild obsession with him (weird I know!)e..."

Nope, perfectly normal reaction in my experience. ;-)
Must admit I've not yet read this, so can't comment on the book, but yeah, got very emotional last year when Leicester U released their findings.

I agree with Darkpool - many of his supporters do get emotional when faced with the injustice meted out to Richard, and who wouldn't at the description of such wounds inflicted on someone? (I will admit to tears.) Can I suggest, as you've moved on from fiction, that you might want to read The Maligned King by Annette Crosby and John Ashdown-Hill's The Last Days of Richard III (both members of the Looking for Richard team who organized the dig) and the 'literary' biography by Paul Murray Kendall to get a less 'romantic' view of the real Richard? Also Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey, which was perhaps the first piece of fiction to address the damage to Richard's reputation over the centuries. (The latter two have to a certain extent been overtaken by later finds, but still very well worth reading.) Good luck with your journey into being a Ricardian!

I got very emotional when I heard Philippa had a ESP and managed to convince some people to dig up a car park. I was not at all surprised that they found a skeleton with a twisted spine under the letter 'R'. It was a predictable hoax I have written a blog about it. Court case coming up I hope they don't get the chance to turn into some shrine.

Don't get me wrong I am very pro Richard, but what has this to do with history. What they really found down that hole was a can of worms, even round ones.

Andrea wrote: "I got very emotional when I heard Philippa had a ESP . . ."

I am more than willing to overlook the ESP. She did a lot of good bringing attention to the history of Richard III. I am not a scientist, but a journalist who has researched and written on scientific studies and I found the material presented by the University of Leicester convincing and professional.

The book makes it sense less like ESP and more like a hunch. I thought the same as Andrea when I first heard the ESP story, didn't necessary think it was a fake, but did an eye roll. Couldn't even make it though the tv show about the discovery. But I have to say the book is pretty good.

I can understand how someone would get emotional over Richard's tragedy.

He was like everyone in that he had many facets to him. Shadow and light. He was a good man, who made choices aligned with his day and his position. Much like we probably would.

He wanted to be a good king and was betrayed terribly by those he trusted. That really haunts me.

What really gets to me is the eyewitness descriptions of how bravely he fought that day, and the way he tried to reach Henry, intensely and bravely fighting pretty much alone, every step of the way, before being overcome.

I,too, get very emotional when reading about Richard and how he met his end. He was betrayed and left to fight the coward Henry, ( who watched the battle from horseback behind the lines ) by himself. Being killed in battle is bad enough, but his body was desecrated and his burial was nothing short of savage.

You all seem to be folks who care about Richard and his treatment: perhaps you would consider signing and sharing this petition calling on Leicester University to honour its original agreement with the Looking for Richard team and release his body from further testing: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/...

The way they are flapping their gums and those photo's of those alleged bones is on par with what happened to Richard all those years ago. Nothing can convince me that 'dig' was the real thing. It was a done deal before the diggers moved in. You notice the other skeletons have never had that treatment. Anyway Philippa loves her Shakespeare and her acting on that documentary was as hammed up just like those plays. Richard no curvature of the spine and he was not 5'8". He have well had those injury's but please let the man rest in peace and have no shrine.

Wow you all responded so quickly, I didn't think anyone would write anything on my thread. To all of you I am glad I am not alone with my emotions towards Richard, makes me feel better that he today has such wonderful supporters.

@Carol I will certainly check out all of recommendations, fingers crossed the local library has all of them. I do know about the damage to his reputation from the Tudors & Shakespeares play. (am i totally rude if i say i dislike Henry & Shakespeare greatly now...even though Shakespeare is a literally genius)

@Andrea a predictable hoax? Do you have a link to your blog?

@Eileen I do like how you said "he had many facets to him, Shadow & light" I do am saddened by how betrayed he was, trust is to me a significant factor in any relationship and i can't imagine what would of gone through his mind at the time of betrayal.
I applaud you on how admirable you speak of him.

Do any of you attend Richard III Society of NSW meeting by chance?

Again thank you all for taking the time out and for commenting so honestly. I really do appreciate it.

Carisse,
You are not being rude. I greatly dislike Henry and Shakespeare also for their treatment both physical and literary of Richard. Henry treated his body abominably and Shakespeare, his memory. He poisoned minds against Richard and for that I have no respect for him, genius or not.

Carol wrote: "I agree with Darkpool - many of his supporters do get emotional when faced with the injustice meted out to Richard, and who wouldn't at the description of such wounds inflicted on someone? (I will ..."
If it was not for those bunch of idiots Richard's memory would have been at peace. They are the ones that dug whatever they claimed and got him bang to rights long before the diggers moved in. From what I know of the Richard III society is a lot of them have very unhealthy agenda's about Richard III. When I joined that society I was only to aware that they did not want Richard to lose the Shakespeare image.
@Carisse here's my blogs
http://www.historum.com/blog/crystal+...

http://www.historum.com/blog/crystal+...

I have also been blocked on Richard III society for speaking out against that dig on their facebook page. That 'dig' was a disgraceful waste of money and I am sure that the people who live there think that too.

Carisse, there are a lot of good people connected with the RIII Society who do care a great deal about what has happened over the centuries and also what has been happening recently. The Executive Committee in the UK has taken a 'neutral' stance on what is going on, which has not gone down too well with many ordinary members (such as myself) who see it as tacitly supporting Leicester's activities, and some also perceive a drift in the Society's 'upper echelons' away from its original aim to restore Richard's good reputation in the face of More's and Shakespeare's depictions. Myself, I have held a grudge against Shakespeare for more than 30 years for the damage his play has perpetuated - but keep it separate from my admiration for him in other ways - and accept he was spinning a tale he must have known to be absurd because he knew it would play well in his times/for the powers that be. When all's said and done it's a drama, not posing as 'history' - he's not responsible for the way it's been interpreted and used in the years since. The Tudor, however, is another matter!

Hi all, new to this group, and kind of double-posting this (from another R3 thread bc not sure how notifications work here).

As events of the Leicester dig have unfolded, I have been enjoying getting to know Richard. Not perfect, but I do think history has missed out on a leader with great potential. And I, too, will cop to tears and a feeling of deep sadness when reading about the injuries R3 sustained. The treatment of his body was nothing short of desecration, and enough to make me really disrespect Henry VII and his followers. But I guess I am applying modern sensibilities to a very different time. However, I thought respect for the dead in battle was more generally practiced.

I had forgotten about this book for several years, but I just rebought and re-read Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time" and loved it. Wondering if any of you have read it and/or know about her sources for the book? Even though it is technically fiction, it presents an investigation into R3's life, death, and others' actions during that time, in reference to the Princes in the Tower. She described many different accounts and I would love to find a bibliography and actually get to see some of these sources for myself.

Concurrently reading SKP's The Sunne in Splendour, and it has been nice to read more balanced things about Richard. If nothing else, the glimpse into his family was wonderful.

Thanks all!

Kerri wrote: "Hi all, new to this group, and kind of double-posting this (from another R3 thread bc not sure how notifications work here).

As events of the Leicester dig have unfolded, I have been enjoying ge..."

Hi Kerri, and welcome. I haven't read Tey yet, but hear lots of good things about her.

Speaking of Penman, I'm still on air. Went to her book signing this evening - she tells such wonderful stories about how her books came to be.

I'm turning Green as I type this - unfortunately she won't be anywhere near where I live :(

Total envy! Love that lady. If you haven't already, friend her on fb. So far I haven't seen that she will be out my way (Calif), but maybe sometime. But I enjoy reading her posts.

Totally recommend Tey! It's a short book, MAYBE 200 pages. Amazing that it was written in 1951 (and funny concurrently in that it describes a hospital experience of the era-- boy, have things changed!). I am shocked after reading her and Penman and other current authors that R3 is still believed to be a monster by so many. At the very least, I think there is enough reasonable doubt that the old stories need to be updated.

I hadn't been sure how Tey's book was thought of, so I did some googling. This pretty well summed it up:

"On its publication Anthony Boucher called the book "one of the permanent classics in the detective field.... one of the best, not of the year, but of all time". Dorothy B. Hughes also praised it, saying it is "not only one of the most important mysteries of the year, but of all years of mystery". This book was voted number one in The Top 100 Crime Novels of All Time list by the UK Crime Writers' Association in 1990.
Winston Churchill stated in his History of the English-Speaking Peoples his belief in Richard's guilt of the murder of the princes, adding, "It will take many ingenious books to raise the issue to the dignity of a historical controversy", probably referring to Tey's novel, published seven years earlier. The papers of Sir Alan Lascelles contain a reference to his conversation with Churchill about the book.
In 2012, Peter Hitchens wrote that The Daughter of Time was "one of the most important books ever written"."
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daug...

happy wrote: "I'm turning Green as I type this - unfortunately she won't be anywhere near where I live :("

I will probably regret it in the morning after being up way past my bedtime.

No... I won't regret it - it was great to see her, listen to her stories. I thought it was so nice of her to acknowledge a couple of fans who had traveled a long way to see her. This was in Seattle, one had come from Juneau, the other from Vancouver (I am assuming Vancouver BC since the next day's signing was Portland, OR and the otherVancouver's just a stone's throw away on the other side of the Columbia River.

Misfit-- hope you'll post some pics to her page!

Kerri wrote: "Misfit-- hope you'll post some pics to her page!"

Tomorrow,I hope. The phone is charging. Other pics from the signing are popping up in my feeds.

Awesome.

Hmmm, I just looked at her site. Looks like she will actually be in the Bay Area this week... Unfortunately I work! Ah, well...

Kerri wrote: "Hmmm, I just looked at her site. Looks like she will actually be in the Bay Area this week... Unfortunately I work! Ah, well..."

Damn job. Tell them to let you go.

BTW, Ransom is awesome. She hasn't sucker punched me for a good cry since The Reckoning.

Deborah wrote: "Carisse,
You are not being rude. I greatly dislike Henry and Shakespeare also for their treatment both physical and literary of Richard. Henry treated his body abominably and Shakespeare, his mem..."

Wasn't Shakespeare simply reflecting the history of his day? One in which his queen's forebears were the victors. I love the play King Richard III, despite or maybe because of the wonderful wickedness of the central character. Yes, I see him as a character, a construction of the author and a deliberate exaggeration. The play was what first got me interested in Richard.

Carol wrote: "Carisse, there are a lot of good people connected with the RIII Society who do care a great deal about what has happened over the centuries and also what has been happening recently. The Executive ..."
I was once was a member but I knew the higher realms of the Society were not interested in research in Richard's life other than to discuss Shakespeare plays and invite David Starkey to their AGM. I decided to walk away from them when I heard Philippa wanted to dig up a car park based on her ESP.

So I have been doing a little "internet research" (fancy term for googling), and thrilled to turn this up! This is a pro-R3 analysis from the 19th century.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36451/...

Oops, sorry, early 20th, published 1906.

Kerri wrote: "Oops, sorry, early 20th, published 1906."

This is terrific. Thank you and it has Epub and Kindle versions also.

Kerri wrote: "So I have been doing a little "internet research" (fancy term for googling), and thrilled to turn this up! This is a pro-R3 analysis from the 19th century.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36451/36..."

Thank you.

:)

Okay, here's one you can download for free, by Horace Walpole:

http://www.amazon.com/Historic-Doubts...

Tango wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Carisse,
You are not being rude. I greatly dislike Henry and Shakespeare also for their treatment both physical and literary of Richard. Henry treated his body abominably and Shak..."


Tango, you could be correct. My issue is that so many people take what Shakespeare wrote as gospel without finding out the facts and making their own assumptions. Too many people learn their history from books and people who bend the facts to either fit an agenda, or because they haven't researched the facts well enough. No one knows for sure whether or not Richard was guilty, and I think until we do, if ever, which I strongly doubt, we should give him the benefit of the doubt in literature as well as in our own hearts.