The Pearl discussion

I believe Kino should've sold the pearl to the pearl buyer who was paying more for it. With the money he would've received, he could've at least saved it all for his family's needs and not be greedy. It was tempting though to try to get more than what he could've gotten.

Are you saying that from a Doylist, or a Watsonian perspective?

Doylist perspective.

OK, but then, maybe Steinbeck was trying to make a point about greed, or maybe just about "pushing your luck", in setting Kino off on a trek where he ended up losing his child?

Yeah, your right. I guess I was looking at it a different way. What I was trying to say was what Kino could've done if he were a real person in the real world, and not in a book.

I think that's more of a Watsonian perspective, though, isn't it?

Yeah, Watsonian, but what matters here is... what do you think about it? Was he merely being greedy?

Oh, GREAT, Now we get to define "Greed". (Isn't that one of the "Deadly Sins", type thing?)

Do we know what he intended to *do* with the money? I mean, *that* sort of determines whether he was "Greedy" or not... Maybe he was gonna put a cell phone tower in his village and buy everyone an IPoone or something, I dunno...

Well, even though the characters are too poorly depicted for a really good Watsonian analysis, we actually do know what he wanted to do with the money; he says it and he insists on it repeatedly: he wanted to marry Juana in the church, and he wanted Coyotito to be able to learn how to read, write, and do math. And sure, he wanted a rifle, probably the most luxurious thing he could think of.

I do believe that, Doylistly speaking, the author intended to criticize greed, but he chose to portray Greed as simply wanting what most of us call basic needs: shoes, education (well, minus the gun, unless you ask some people from the U.S.).

EDIT: and if you think he could have gotten those things accepting the pearl buyer's offer, you got off Greed and into the Realm of Pride... Can you define Pride? What would you have done?

OK, but the OP is asking "what Kino could've done if he were a real person in the real world". Now here we go... if that's not Watsonian or Doylist (Which maybe it isn't, since we're rewriting the script completely, rather than just analyzing it as is), what is it?

You've exposed a *diabolically* penetrating question, though... We know Steinbeck was a big lib and wanted to save the world and Expose Injustice and save all The Poor from their misery, etc. etc. ad rescue fantasium - his other writings are proof positive of that. So then he goes and uses this poor schlub of a Mexican - actually more of an indigenous Indian really - as an example of *greed*, just for wanting some simple improvements in his life? What's wrong with *that* picture... (A "Lit" professor could have four orgasms over THAT dicsucsion)

But... Just to confuse things as much as possible, first, how can you be sure that he was going to end up *proud* of whatever acquisitions or accomplishments he realized with the money? I mean, yeah, it's highly likely... in which case, Steinbeck (from the Doylist point of view) is *really* throwing a rock at the poor bastard.

Also, if you ask what *I'D* do, we're back rewriting the script again... I mean, are we talking about what I think I'd do if I were a poor Indian pearl diver, or what I'd do if I managed to come up with A Pearl Of Great Price somewhere that would make a huge difference in my life as it actually is (in which case, how long have you got to read the list of ways I'm always in deep doodoo, that I could buy my way out of), or... ... ??

No, I believe the OP's question was in the direction of analyzing the text from a Watsonian point of view, to determine if Kino's decision of rejecting the buyers and trying to get a fair price elsewhere was right, or if he did the wrong thing. I think that's what they meant. I didn't understand it as a hypothetical scenario of "what would have happened if Kino had accepted the buyer's price".

I heard that Steinbeck was a defender of the poor and oppressed blah blah blah... I don't know if, Doylistly speaking, he meant to send a message about greed, but if he did, it was horrible to portray "greed" as wanting basic needs. So he wanted to defend the poor and oppressed as long as they stayed poor and oppressed?

Yeah, I saw all those reviews of people chanting the praises of this book like "oh so true, we have to be contented with the lot we get in life...". Sure, as long as MY lot in life involves shoes, education and a doctor when I have a booboo, right? The poor Indian, though... he was GREEDY! *points accusatory finger*

But talking about Pride... The point wasn't that Kino rejected the buyers because he wanted more cash for his pearl (he had no clue how much it was worth); he rejected them because it became obvious to him that they were screwing with him, and he was too proud to let them get away with it. Watsonianly speaking, of course.

Doylistly speaking... boy, this plot has more holes than my father's old pajama pants!

Well, if you wanted to give Steinbeck the (probably wholly undeserved) benefit of the doubt, you could try to make some claim (him not being here to defend (or undefend) himself) that he was making a Highly Sophisticated Anthropological Point using an "Unsophisticated Primitive". I.e., if you look at the way people behave in a completely primitive state, you'll almost without exception find them beset with exactly the same moral issues as their "Civilized" counterparts (i.e. Us Chickens). So studying their societies makes it a lot simpler to analyze just exactly how fucked up humans really are, than does trying to analyze Wall Street or the Russian Mafia or something... .

But was Steinbeck sophisticated enough to even *make* that Subtle And Sophisticated of a point? I doubt it... He's no Nietzche, or Goethe, or Dostoyevski... in fact, he's not even a Cormac McCarthy. He probably just totally blew it, just as you suggest...

(and boy, have we Doyled the living bejeezis out of him... He probably wouldn't be able to sit for a week, if he'd gotten the equivalent treatment in person)

HAhahaha well, let him hear the Song of the Whooped Plot mixing with the Song of the Doylist Facepalm, that will make him feel better.

What rot

THANK you for your incisive and enlightening analysis, Feliks!!

NOW SINCE you have SO obligingly resmurfaced on Satan's evening - The world is STILL waiting to hear why you threw Savinkov out the window at the Kremlin - (Or was it the Lubyanka... His memories didn't entirely survive my last rebirth)

What's that I hear in the wind? It's a new song. The Song of the Lost Eloquence.

You got the "Song of the Lost" part right, but it's "Flatulence", not "Eloquence"

What can u put to good effect flatulence??Isn´t it all just like pissing in the wind?

Does it work with brain farts, too?

Much to Felik´s dismay as he gets impaled by the Eiffel Tower.

Laura wrote: "Does it work with brain farts, too?"

ahhh... well, yes and no... For one thing, it's not really possible to know in advance when the subject is *going* to have a brain fart, which would sort of be required in order to capture any available energy resources...

And then there's the issue of, well, the subject *would* have to have a brain, to start with...

Hum....... wait....... let's say you want to elicit a fart, so you feed your subject certain food, known for producing flatulence. Could something similar be applied to the brain? On a subject known for brain farting often under the influence of certain topics, could we elicit one?

Ok, we're going out of subject tremendously. And it's way more interesting than this book anyway!

OK... I can smell you thinking, already.

You want a huge Government research project to classify the entire human race according to brain function so that you can THEN get a research grant to analyze us all to determine what confounds and bumfuzzles us INDIVIDUally so that you can THEN mentally derail ALL of us so that the ENTIRE PLANET goes into synchronous constant brain-farting so you can HARVEST our CAPACITY on behalf of your ALIEN OVERLORDS from SIRIUS, DON't you!!????

ADMIT IT!@!!

Why should he have done anything other than that which what he did? He did that which he did, and his wife did that which she did, and that is why it is a great story. Had they done something other than that which they did, the story would have been different. The term "should" is meaningless. It assumes there is some way to measure the quality of an outcome. The past consists only of those things done, not those things that might have been done differently.

Duane, breathe, put your hands up and slowly step away from the peyote...

Mayor, nobody is saying that the book should be rewritten or anything. That was not a Doylist question, it was a Watsonian one. If a book doesn't leave margin to analyze the characters' motivations, personalities, etc., from a Watsonian point of view, it's just a bad book. Thus, the question is perfectly valid.

Laura wrote: "Duane, breathe, put your hands up and slowly step away from the peyote...

Mayor, nobody is saying that the book should be rewritten or anything. That was not a Doylist question, it was a Watsonian..."

That's true, I love Watson, even though I don't know anything about him. Could this have been written left-handed? What if the pages had been stained with meatloaf and tobacco? What if the editor had been cross-eyed? What if the characters had had more money when they found the pearl? What if Kino had had a 401K and the pearl would have been convertible to cash? OK, just kidding, I know what you mean, we can examine what we would have done or what not, I just don't think that's terribly interesting when there's such a piece of beautiful literature in front of us -- it seems like there is so much to talk about without talking about what never happened.

Well...... this book didn't impress me, I thought the story was bland and the message horrible.

Nonetheless, if you pay attention to the OP question, it's not a "what would have happened if...." kind of question. It was a question about Kino's personality, motivations, and whether what he did was wrong according to you.

Mayor wrote: "Laura wrote: "Duane, breathe, put your hands up and slowly step away from the peyote...
.
.
What if Laura borrowed Duane's time machine and got on Steinbeck's ass about accusing hapless impoverished indigenous Injuns of being greedy...
"

Dude... I was originally in the same state you are, like, Why bother? But you should see them rewriting George "Reamed Rectum" Martin's stuff - I mean, there is an entire *universe* of "WhatIfniks" out there fanfucking everything all to hell. And now it's become an "Art Form", with classifications of analyses like "Doylist", and "Watsonian", etc... . No doubt something with a bowtie and a Prius is going to get a Ph.D. in "Comparative Internet" out of it B4 long.

So I ended up deiciding that the battle is already lost, so I might as well go see if I can pee in the pool when nobody's looking, type thing... (And I'm halfway converted... You wouldn't *believe* how much fun it is rewriting *Bible* stories... I and certain other persons unnamed are gonna end up with a Papal Fatwa against us B4 *that*'s over.)

Laura wrote: "Duane, breathe, put your hands up and slowly step away from the peyote...
Oh for pete's sake Laura you can do better than *that* - Peyote is SO 60's... Now it'd be something like, "1, 4 sodium paradiphenyltrichlorobenzotechnodestructolabiotrophic trifuliminate", or something, commonly known as "Thrag", cooked up in some kid's basement...

Duane wrote: "Mayor wrote: "Laura wrote: "Duane, breathe, put your hands up and slowly step away from the peyote...
.
.
What if Laura borrowed Duane's time machine and got on Steinbeck's ass about accusing haple..."

Now, now, you act like this is such a negative thing, but..........if Grrm croaks before the ASOIF is finished I have a fan-fic writing friend in Pittsburgh who will write the last two books. I always have a backup plan.

OH, hey, I'm not *necessarily* agin it... if you did it *right*, you could cause a cranial thermonuclear detonation out there among GRRM fanbots and cause ALL of whatever they've got left for brains toturn into tapioca pudding and come running out their ears!!

And then you'd have to change your name and hide... But it would be worth it!!

One thing is in-universe analysis (since the term Watsonian sounds so silly to you, but it's the same), and a completely different thing is what is called "fanfic", which IS actually a rewriting made by fans.

The OP question is, in reality, "was Kino right", which is in-universe analysis, and the potential in-universe consequences of Kino's actions. If characters are well-written, if plots are rounded and sound, they all should allow in-universe analysis, which is a discussion of the subjects brought up by the book.

In this case, it's obvious that the author intended to bring some sort of -horrible- message, he certainly had an idea whether Kino was right or wrong to reject the buyers, and readers should have enough of their own brains to either agree or disagree with this. Asking whether you think Kino was right to do what he did doesn't mean rewriting the book, it means putting some thought into what you just read.

I'm well aware that a big portion of GRRM's fans entertain themselves in what-ifs, speculations of what the future books could bring, and fanfic of all (some disgusting) sorts. That's not what is discussed here, as the OP never started his own fic or anything.

Nothing is perfect (especially this Song of the Brain Fart) and untouchable.

Laura wrote: "One thing is in-universe analysis (since the term Watsonian sounds so silly to you, but it's the same), and a completely different thing is what is called "fanfic", which IS actually a rewriting ma..."

OK, well,, yeah,,, but,,,, you can't write fanfic stuff without using the pre-existing story as A Point Of Departure, right? which then implies you're anal-yzing the pre-existing story, which then further implies that you're Watsoning whatever the story was before you fanfucked it... amirite?

In this case, it's obvious that the author intended to bring some sort of -horrible- message, he certainly had an idea whether Kino was right or wrong to reject the buyers,...

Yeah, But... We already Doyled out that he - possibly inadvertently, but nonetheless, ignorance of what's politically correct is no excuse and you'll get Hatecrimed anyway - potentially made it appear that this "Third World" Native Person was greedy. So he could have equally (And partially in consequence) just blown it with the entire entire Horrible Message! Like, maybe he had a brain fart and didn't really really think things through entirely...

It even occurs to me that in "Reality", the pearl diver would *certainly* have known of the sort of jealousy and rage that his sudden wealth would cause among His Fellow Men and probably concealed the pearl from the very get-go, and just sneaked off to Wherever to sell it before some psychopath knocked him in the head and took it...

("Song of the Brain Fart"... ROTFHMSLMAOPCTD!!)

Duane wrote: "... which then further implies that you're Watsoning whatever the story was before you fanfucked it"

Of course! You need at least a basic universe to work with, if a character really fascinates you enough to go and write your own thing about it.

I don't think the message is horrible just because it's about the Third World Native Person (yeah, his treatment of these Poor Native Superstitious Savages is entirely another matter, but not my issue here). I would think the message is horrible if it had been some poor "White Trash" dude who accidentally found a treasure. The final moral seems to be "be contented with whatever you have", and pardon me, that is bullshit. He illustrated a person who didn't have basic sanitation services and couldn't afford shoes, education, or a doctor for a life and death shituation, so screw this "Greed Is Bad" thing the author seems to have going on.

It is rather obvious that we are meant to think Kino was wrong (which could answer the OP question). By making the inevitable outcome a complete -and predictable- tragedy, the author most likely meant to imply none of this would have happened if Kino hadn't done what he did. That is not fanfic, that is putting a little thought in what the text says.

"It even occurs to me that in "Reality", the pearl diver would *certainly* have known of the sort of jealousy and rage that his sudden wealth would cause among His Fellow Men and probably concealed the pearl from the very get-go, and just sneaked off to Wherever to sell it before some psychopath knocked him in the head and took it..."

That, mein Freund, is a good mixture of Watsonian and Doylist: in universe, Kino should have XXX, but the author failed to make it realistic enough for that to happen, because he needed his plot to go in that direction. And oh boy oh boy, hold your pants, because I *gasp* agree with you!

<< oh FUCK NO where are my Smelling Salts... The room is going dim... >>

I don't think the author intended the reader to derive that Kino "should have" done anything differently. I think it's a story about how people encounter new things, people, experiences in life, and how that changes them. I don't think the author regrets Kino's decision or prefers Kino to do this or that. He's just saying -- here's a pearl, here's a man -- let's put them together, let's see what happens. If Kino doesn't collect the pearl or trades it for cash, or puts it in a lockbox in a bank or crushes it with a hammer into dust, then what. So what? Then he finds another pearl the next day, and he hasn't had the benefit of the experience. It is entirely possible that what he should have done and what he did do were exactly the same thing, and that in fact what happens and what "should" happen are always the same.

Mayor wrote: "I don't think the author regrets Kino's decision or prefers Kino to do this or that."

You're not understanding what this thread is about. There is a judgment on Kino's decision, there is no doubt about it. There is a moral to this story, there is also no doubt about it. That doesn't mean that the author "regrets" having written this, or that he thinks he should have written it differently.

When someone asks "what should have/could have", this is what they are talking about. Was he right doing what he did? And that is in-universe analysis, what I called Watsonian. If you, instead, argue that the author intended for us to think Kino... whatever, that is what I called Doylist analysis.

And then you have Duanist analysis. But I think he just passed out :-D

<< shakes head ... stares unbelievingly at screen... >>

<< **Laura** AGREEd with somebody? And it was ME?? >>

<< stumbles out the door to buy lottery tickets... >>

Duane wrote: "OK... I can smell you thinking, already.

You want a huge Government research project to classify the entire human race according to brain function so that you can THEN get a research grant to anal..."

Duane, you are hereby notified of your transgression against the laws of Sirius. We do not condone arguments of unintended crimes but the revelation of our govenmental body in SIRIUS is a major felony. Your person will be encrypted forever in the body of an intergalactic "instagram" as a dot over the word starting with sh and ending in "t". Should you desire a more concise explanation of what this means, read THE EYRE AFFAIR by Jafford Fford. This sentence will be enforced in time infinitum. So the only solace to you is that you will be immortal, a state of affairs that could never been gained by your puny efforts at creative writing. May you rest forever in the dot.

All I care about is whether I will still be able to have sex with other dots. ?..................................................!

(But I will go look that up... I see where one of my Ffriends already wreckommended it.) (Of course considering the kind of person who would Ffriend ME... yeah right.) (I'm sure it's bootleggable from some deplorable Russian website somewhere...)

(Do I HAVE to be stored as a Dot? Can't I be enclosed in parentheses?)

And!

Don't think we're not aware of your vile reptilian tactics!!



And even one step ahead of you, in fact! To wit,

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

We know you're out there! You'll have to capture me first! Go ahead, SEND one of your slimy reptilian megacaterpillars to capture me. I have my escape pod with me. And *legions* of voluptuous Earthwomen to crew my craft!

Laura wrote: "Mayor wrote: "I don't think the author regrets Kino's decision or prefers Kino to do this or that."

You're not understanding what this thread is about. There is a judgment on Kino's decision, ther..."

I guess I disagree. I don't think there is a moral to this story or a judgment about Kino either intended or implied, unintentionally or intentionally. True, I think it is highly likely that people will make a judgment of the book, but I would view that as discretionary in the reader rather than required by the text.

My, oh my, Duane, you have such scaly skin. Hope HRC didn't feed you your favorite alien food. We here at SIRIUS think your taste in contraband excrement of the dithripodus species is hardly worthy of us and you will be relegated to the slums of Zephodirus upon your return to our planet. Such taste in pathogenically tainted non foods is unacceptable in our society as you are well aware.

Geoffrey wrote: "My, oh my, Duane, you have such scaly skin. Hope HRC didn't feed you your favorite alien food. We here at SIRIUS think your taste in contraband excrement of the dithripodus species is hardly worthy..."

Bah! Feed ME??

You Sirians are RANK amateurs. *I* 8 *it* from the inside out! It swallowed my stasis pod in one of its inebriated gorge-fests and that was the end of its identity. Now I have control of ALL its Earthwomen! Which is all I care about anyway.

But you Sirians had better HOPE it, I mean I, I think? doesn't get *elected*. *I*, unlike my former host whose shell I inhabit, DO know where the terminus of your hyperspace port is... Of course I will not have to USE this knowledge if you **cooperate**...

yes, I do know. It has a very primitive device embedded, namely a GPS. And let me warn you. It has attached itself to your being. What you didn't know until now is that attached inside is a proto-melignite trachoid, whose metamorphic state is one large boom. Bye, bye Duane, you will get blasted to a hungry Black Hole. But don't worry. Goodreads will write a fitting testimony to you as the "Species that Never Was", and it will issue a call for all sci-fi writer wannabes to concoct stories about you.

GAAH!!!

That would be Blog-icide! On themselves!!

Are the GR control droids REALLY *That* Dumb?

(But I would LOVE to see it happen...)

(And do you REALLY expect me to believe YOU Sirian reptiles can build ANYTHING that actually *Works* - Especially a bomb that won't go off while YOU are trying to build it??

Bat-dung... CNN propaganda... But thanks for the heads up on the GPS; I'll be sure to leave it in some politician's pocket, Sic Transit Gloria Steinem...