2015: The Year of Reading Women discussion

This is the place where we will be discussing My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante, tentatively scheduled for October.

Thanks Bloodorange! I'm in, for October or whenever the group decides!

There is also a recent discussion here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Thank you, Lily!

I would be interested to join the group to read My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante. October would be fine or any time from October onwards.

The more, the merrier! I'm waiting for two other people to confirm their interest and OK/ veto the dates.

Confirming that October is great for me :-)

Thanks, Zanna:)

Thank YOU for organising :-)

Was in the famous bookstore in Manchester, Vermont, today. They did not have any of the remainder of the series of Ferrante's books, but told me they had had several copies at the beginning of the holiday weekend. They underestimated the demand. (They did have one last copy of My Brilliant Friend.)

Are we going to read 'My Brilliant Friend'? I am ready to go!

I'm taking it with me to read on my way to work tomorrow:)

I've got it and am all ready to go as well! Do we want a reading schedule?

Perhaps it would be good to have some sort of schedule. But I am neutral in that respect.

Ooh thanks for the reminder! I'm going to start today - is this on the October upcoming reads page?

I am starting today too. The book has 331 pages, at least my copy has. That means some 85 pages a week. Could you brief me on how we go about it. Discuss what we read during a week or is there usually an ongoing discussion?

I have to read the whole thing, I can't read 85 pages and then stop. Usually the discussion is quite free flowing

Okay, free flowing it will be!

I'll have to read faster too, this book's got a looong list of people waiting for it so I only get to keep it for two weeks.

I read some 40+ pages. It seems to be easy reading. I like it! The atmosphere is special and the childhood story somehow attractive in an unconventional way. I can relate to it.

I may be less active now than I would like to be - I hit the first rough stretch of the school year. Too many assignments to grade/ students to meet/ recommendations to write...

Bloodorange, please do not feel obliged to join if you are too busy.

Thanks, Hanneke. I also have a library book, which is a motivation in itself, but I'll try to be reasonable.

Hey, picked this up a week ago and saw it was a group read here. Great timing... May I join you all? :)

Hi, averybiird, certainly:))

I read some 60 pages now and I am astonished how much I love Ferrante's writing. This is my first Ferrante. Her tale of the lopsided friendship between the two girls evoke some very buried memories in me, I think. Lenu is so in awe of Lila. Here's a description of Lenu about Lila which I especially liked: "She was disheveled, dirty, on her knees and elbows she always had scabs from cuts and scrapes that never had time to heal" ... "Every one of her movements said that to harm her would be pointless because, whatever happened, she would find a way of doing worse to you." I am normally not very fond of reading about young children, but I am really enjoying this

Hanneke wrote: "...I am normally not very fond of reading about young children, but I am really enjoying this ..."

This somehow seems much more like reflecting back on one's own life and friendships than reading about young girls/children? Even if one's own childhood was very different.

Sure, but that is always the case if something touches you, don't you think.

Hanneke wrote: "Sure, but that is always the case if something touches you, don't you think."

Perhaps. However, I do think some reading takes one to worlds outside oneself. Even though set in Naples, MBF somehow triggered more personal memories of girlhood friendships than I recall, say, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, doing, which instead helped me understand the history of a geographic and demographic area relatively physically close to where I live today. Yet, in other ways, MBF provided a certain distancing look or perspective on those personal memories of girlhood, i.e., do I recall similar circumstances with the same perspective?

I'm on holiday for the weekend and i did some writing yesterday instead of reading, so I only read a few chapters, but I was captivated by the character of Lila and the way the girls toughen themselves? by exposing themselves to risk and discomfort

I never read A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. But, yes, MBF triggered personal memories. Not in the geographic sense, of course, as growing up in the Netherlands is quite a different thing than growing up in Naples. I assume you already finished the book, Lily?

Hanneke wrote: "...I assume you already finished the book,..."

This first one of the series, yes. Even before the discussion I note at Msg 3. I own, but haven't really started, the next book. I read the first volume in Kindle format; for reasons I can't describe, I chose traditional book format for the second.

The rivalry and the support these two women (at this point girls) provide each other was part of the fascination of the book to me. That mood was set for me early, when they pushed each others dolls down the open grill work.

I'd have to read again to construct exactly the dynamics with their teacher, but somehow she seemed a mentor that wavered in the consistency of her motivation of her students.

Hanneke wrote: "...I am normally not very fond of reading about young children, but I am really enjoying this "

For some reason this sentence surprised me. I think in my own mind because I wouldn't have described it as being about children. Perhaps it's because of the way the framing prologue makes it about a much older woman remembering back? I'm surprised at how much this is causing me to remember back to my own childhood - I can just feel her fear, and her jealousy, and her admiration. And yes, as Lily said, this is putting me there in a way that other books haven't - even while at the same time other parts of it are completely foreign to my experience.

Alexa wrote: "...For some reason this sentence surprised me. I think in my own mind because I wouldn't have described it as being about children. Perhaps it's because of the way the framing prologue makes it about a much older woman remembering back?..."

I initially had the same reaction to Hanneke's comment as you, Alexa, before realizing the accuracy of her observation. I think you hit on at least one reason "why" -- the framing.

One of the things that startles me about the story-telling is the large number of characters and families Ferrante presents. This is one of the places the book reminds me of reading Proust.

(In case you have the Kindle edition, do know that there is an excellent opening description of the various families and their members. My copy opened beyond that, and I didn't discover it until I had finished the book. It would have been very helpful during the reading. Having looked at both of the next two books, this section is later also used by Ferrante to provide continuity for readers -- seems very well constructed and used is my present reaction.)

I do have a physical book and it starts with a 3 pages summary of all the families with the names of parents and children. Very convenient.
Lily, you are right in your observation that there is a distancing look on the stories of the children. It is done very subtle, but it is clear that you observe the older woman's memories of her youth. Very well done by Ferrente to give you nevertheless such vivid views of the action and dialogues. I can see those scenes in that courtyard clearly before my eyes and can imagine the terrific screaming going on all day and night.

Alexa wrote: "Perhaps it's because of the way the framing prologue makes it about a much older woman remembering back? I'm surprised at how much this is causing me to remember back to my own childhood - I can just feel her fear, and her jealousy, and her admiration"

I think this is a great observation. The author can thus bring a perspective to her memories that a child would not. As such I too am really loving this book and the nostalgia I'm experiencing of my own girlhood as I read. I grew up in a more modern place/time but the dynamic of these girls' friendship seems somehow universal. I had forgotten all the drama that revolved around my world back then! But it was just like this. Especially how she included secondary friends like Carmela/Gigliola into the mix that take greater/lesser predominance during fights or distancing of the two main girls. Then in addition, you have the setting of Naples in the 1950s that is so intriguing, adding even more interest to the story. I'm hooked!

Hanneke wrote: "...Lily, you are right in your observation that there is a distancing look on the stories of the children. It is done very subtle, but it is clear that you observe the older woman's memories of her youth...."

Yes, our thanks to Alexa for her "framing" observation. Had a very interesting conversation at lunch today about this as a potential in memoir writing -- one woman called it being able to bring wisdom to the story, rather than depicting the situation from the child's eyes or viewpoint. (A bit reminiscent of the arguments currently raging about "To Kill a Mockingbird" versus "Go Set a Watchman" -- the former is very deliberately narrated from the voice/viewpoint of the child, Scout. Consider the boundaries that imposed versus what Ferrante is doing here. And, as you say, it is very subtle -- at least in this first book.)

I finished the childhood section and just stuck my toe into adolescence. How's everyone else doing?

Also finished the childhood section and will start with the adolescence section today. The words just flow along, such wonderful writing.

I read about 40 pages into adolescence. I love the seriousness Ferrante allows all the young people's feelings and experiences to have... but narratively everything is serious, fighting (for) eduction, getting thrown out of the window... I was shocked by Maestra Oliveiro's classism. And I'm excited about Lila's shoe design dreams

“Don Achille took them, he put them in his black bag.”

Ferrante, Elena (2012-09-25). My Brilliant Friend (Neapolitan Novels Book 1) (Kindle Location 554). Europa. Kindle Edition. [End of Childhood 10]

How do you interpret this? What is the meaning beyond the taunt of one child (Lila) to the other? Clearly, his reputation extends to adults and the larger community.

"Regarding him there was, in my house but not only mine, a fear and a hatred whose origin I didn’t know."

Ibid. (Kindle Locations 154-155). [Childhood 1]

Is "The Story of Don Achille" the subtitle for the entire section on childhood? If so, why?

It is, in the Polish translation. I don't yet know why.

I just assume we'll never find out why Don Achille is so hated by all. Pity. He seems to be feeling guilty about something though, as he gave Lila and Lenu money to buy new dolls. Clearly trying his best to be more liked.

I believe Don Achille was most likely some sort of money-lender. When the carpenter lost all his money, Don Achille took over his business and turned it into a grocery store, but didn't work there himself. I can see that this would have made him hated by the entire community. I don't think Lila was taunting, I think she was repeating an adult comment heard about "disappeared" things.

I believe it's called "The Story of Don Achille" not because he himself is that important, but because the voyage to confront him is what cemented their friendship, turned them from rivals to compatriots.

(Is there some formula for turning Kindle locations into page numbers?)

Alexa wrote: "(Is there some formula for turning Kindle locations into page numbers?) ..."

Unfortunately, I'm afraid not. At least, in general. I don't know why newly digitized books aren't formatted with page numbers from the get go. What I will try to do is at least indicate the section. Most aren't too long but what finding quotations should be possible. Thx for the heads up, Alexa.

Alexa wrote: " I don't think Lila was taunting, I think she was repeating an adult comment heard about "disappeared" things...."

But isn't that a way children do often provoke each other -- to slip the responsibility someplace else by using something they have heard?

Yes! Yet I saw that comment not as a taunt, but as an explanation. It could be said that she was slipping the responsibility off of her shoulders and onto Don Achille's; she's blaming him for the dolls' disappearance, undoubtedly just as she has heard adults blaming him for the disappearance of other things they may have pledged to him as security for loans. I just don't see any intention to provoke. (I'm assuming this is the very end of section 10 we're discussing.)

Alexa wrote: "Yes! Yet I saw that comment not as a taunt, but as an explanation...."

Okay, so we are perhaps holding different views about how the two girls were in relationship and of what Lena is reporting about her memories. I see Lena as positioning Lila as controlling in ways to which she, Lena, acquiesces. (Even though Lena has seized the right, perhaps, to not let Lila disappear, by telling their story.)

(This is a fun discussion! I'm going to see things that I didn't observe when reading myself. Thx.)

Later on, when politics suddenly enters the girls' mental lives, we see that the hatred of Don Achille is partly political. I think your idea is a good one Alexa!

Now I am close to finishing. I'll definitely have to read the subsequent books!