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Founding of Christendom
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Founding of Christendom Chapters Seventeen & Eighteen
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From the information that I have been able to gather from the Internet, it seems that St. Paul was not riding on a horse when he was converted. It appears that art has influenced the legend. Caravaggio's painting (1601) depicting Paul's conversion shows Paul laying on the ground next to his horse. Catholic Answers has a very good article about Paul's conversion and it is written by Hector Molina. Molina states that more than likely Paul was standing and praying when he was struck down. Molina points out that the scriptures say Paul was knocked down during the hour of noonday. He also points out that devout Jews recited prayers everyday at noon while standing on their feet facing Jerusalem. Here is a link to the article:http://www.catholic.com/blog/hector-m...
It is interesting how art can influence our perception of history. When the magi presented their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh at the birth of Jesus, scripture does not tell us there were three magi, yet art portrays three magi. Also interesting, if you look at the painting of the Wedding Feast at Cana, painted by Giuseppe Maria Crespi in 1686 he depicts the people wearing clothing from the Renaissance period! There are probably many more examples of art influencing our perception of history.
Susan Margaret wrote: "From the information that I have been able to gather from the Internet, it seems that St. Paul was not riding on a horse when he was converted. It appears that art has influenced the legend. Carava..."Thank you for the information.
I really enjoyed the description of St. Paul's travels and conversion. Would that we could all posses some of his inner strengh and faith.
Carroll mentions in Chapter 17 that the “fanatically Muslim Wahhabis of Arabia” in 1800 destroyed a Christian community on the island of Socotra off the south coast of Arabian peninsula, a community that was founded originally by Apostle Thomas and that survived all these centuries. (p. 418) Please note that the Wahhabis are still very much active today. The US Government “9/11 Commission Report” shows that they provided Bin Laden with financial support when Al Qaeda moved from Sudan to Afghanistan and subsequently subsidized in part its terrorist activities including the 9/11 and beyond. Indeed there is strong belief that Wahhabi money is behind the black satanic flags currently raging in the Middle East and elsewhere.
Galicius wrote: "Carroll mentions in Chapter 17 that the “fanatically Muslim Wahhabis of Arabia” in 1800 destroyed a Christian community on the island of Socotra off the south coast of Arabian peninsula, a communit..."Wow! That is very interesting Galicius!
Galicius wrote: "Carroll mentions in Chapter 17 that the “fanatically Muslim Wahhabis of Arabia” in 1800 destroyed a Christian community on the island of Socotra off the south coast of Arabian peninsula, a communit..."They certainly have staying power; but so do we.
I'm trying not to read the comments here since I'm only halfway thru 17, but I was wondering if anyone else felt like sometimes the phrasing is awkward here. For example, last sentence of page 406. "To James the Just went the children of Israel; to himself (who is Dr. Carroll talking about here????) in Rome and to John and to Philip and later to Paul went all the rest of the Roman Empire".
Do you think to himself referred to Peter? That's what I think.
There's been a few sentences like this that I want to rewrite. LOL.
Do you think further up on this page that he really meant to say "With the exception of the Ukraine and Ethiopia none of the lands and peoples to which they went became and remained predominantly Christian"....????
Leslie wrote: "I'm trying not to read the comments here since I'm only halfway thru 17, but I was wondering if anyone else felt like sometimes the phrasing is awkward here. For example, last sentence of page 406..."I concur; when I read that sentence I felt Carroll was referring to Peter.
Just an FYI for those following this discussion and book, shortly after October 11 I plan on posting some comments on Chapters 19 & 20. I will also post a summary box so that we all can share our overall views of the book.
Thanks Mike. I'm hoping to wrap up 17 tonight. This one took me awhile to get thru.
Mike, I also enjoy the tidbits like Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city on Earth. It makes for some interesting reading. :-)I have always thought thought of Paul sitting on a donkey on that road. Just my two cents.
Super interesting information about the Muslims and the modern connection Gallicus!!!!
I'm finally done with Chapter 17. I very much enjoyed the historical narrative especially regarding the changing emperors and persecutions. It was more information than I normally see about the Apostles, but like Mike. I would have enjoyed reading even more on them.
Likewise, I still don't understand the connection between the fires in Rome and Christians. Why were we to blame? And for 250 years???? That's holding a grudge!!!!
I did really enjoy the way Dr. Carroll wove Jesus's predictions/prophecies into the story of the destruction of Jerusalem. Ending this chapter it feels amazing that we have our religion at all!
I don't want to get too controversial here, but Susan Margaret made a comment about the influence of art on memory. Religious art is a terrific example of that, but you see this even in the daily news. For example, when I read your comment, I immediately thought of the Michael Brown and the Hands Up, Don't Shoot posters, signs and T-shirts.
Leslie wrote: "Mike, I also enjoy the tidbits like Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city on Earth. It makes for some interesting reading. :-)I have always thought thought of Paul sitting on a donk..."
I also enjoy his little tidbits, they are well placed so that you are almost forced to stop and reflect on them.
An additional comment regarding chapter 18, for those interested in apologetics or perhaps one day participating in those types of debates, the lower portion of page 450 to page 451 contain some required reading about Clement’s letter to the Corinthians. One of the primary things that non-Catholics will attack is the authority of the Pope in the Catholic Church. It is a real sticking point with non-Catholics. Here we see Dr. Carroll speak about Clement as the Bishop of Rome (Pope) sending a letter of direction to the churches in Corinth. Dr. Carroll lists some of the high points that make this letter a stunning example of Papal authority; sent to a distant church, to people who even spoke a different language, written while an Apostle still lived and it was very forcefully written.While I no longer have an interest in these debates, I recall that those who would tear down the papacy would try to characterize this letter as merely a request and not a directive. In order to overcome this position I would suggest that you read the letter in its entirety for yourself, it is short. I believe you will find the letter to be very forceful. I found that once I could quote sections of the letter opponents quietly moved on to other topics.
Mike wrote: "An additional comment regarding chapter 18, for those interested in apologetics or perhaps one day participating in those types of debates, the lower portion of page 450 to page 451 contain some re..."Mike, thank you, as always, for sharing. I'm interested in the apologetics, but don't feel qualified to participate in those debates myself. As with every other topic in my life, I embrace thoughtful debate with consideration for each viewpoint and carefull, respectful listening, but my own experience has been the vast majority of those conversations end up one-sided, sadly.
I'll definitely try to read his letter. I'm not there yet in our reading. This month is a busy reading month for me. I'm in ten book clubs and three are reading three books this month and another has a 500 pager for the month! It's completely crazy, in a nice way. :-)
Leslie wrote: "Mike wrote: "An additional comment regarding chapter 18, for those interested in apologetics or perhaps one day participating in those types of debates, the lower portion of page 450 to page 451 co..."Leslie, In my humble opinion you far more well read and qualified than most of the people I encountered several years ago. Most of those folks substituted qualifications with just being loud.
A person does not need the scope of knowledge of a Jimmy Akin or a Patrick Madrid; the ability to read and think will overcome most arguments.
Finished Chapter 18! I think because of my reading in
this was mostly a review for me. I loved that he really spent some time on the early Christian martyrs. Most books gloss over these stories. I also was interested to learn about the way the heretics attacked marriage. I wonder why that sacrament, but not others? I thought he did a really nice job of explaining the background of the various heretics, where they operated and when, and their return to the church.
It felt so good to read the stories of the martyrs who were difficult to kill.
I thought this was a well done chapter. It really tied in well with my other reading, expanding concepts the other did not and the other expanded on things Dr. Carroll moved quickly through.
Does anyone have a deeper understanding of why the Christians were killed because Rome burned? I haven't gotten that far in my other Christian history book.
He provides more explanation for something similar in the next chapter. Just curious.
From what I understand there are several theories as to how the fire in Rome started. Some of the Roman citizens blamed Nero for starting the fire. In order to take the attention away from himself, Nero decided to blame the Christians, since the Christians were already unpopular with the people. Several pagan temples burned in the fire, so it may have been easier to believe that the Christians were responsible and so the persecutions began.
Susan Margaret wrote: "From what I understand there are several theories as to how the fire in Rome started. Some of the Roman citizens blamed Nero for starting the fire. In order to take the attention away from himself,..."That is the explanation that I have repeatedly heard.
It sounds like someone with an agenda. I think, for me, it wouldn't make sense for Nero to do that. It could have been a heretic pushing everyone's buttons, a disgruntled person in administration, etc. I guess I can't help but think of the manipulations that followed. Sounds like someone wanted to stir up trouble for sure.It's just frustrating to get blamed for fires then earthquakes! But, look at the Communist Scare in our own country not so many years ago, or Hitler's reign and you see how easily people are manipulated. So sad.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but today's mass was in honor of Pope Callistus I. :-) Here's the Divine Office for today.http://divineoffice.org/ord-w28-wed-o...
http://productions.franciscanmedia.or...
If you get The Magnificat, the Saint of the Day for Saint Who? is Saint Proterius. So nice when these names mean something to you.
The growth of the church undoubtedly upset the Sanhedrin since most of the early converts in Jerusalem were Jewish. The stoning of Steven began the Jewish persecution of Hellenistic Jews and Jewish converts.
Prior to getting into Saul’s journey to Damascus, Dr. Carroll calls attention to Damascus as being the oldest continually inhabited city on earth, I had not heard that before, but love these little tid-bits.
I need some help here. On page 399 Dr. Carroll describes Saul’s encounter with the Lord. He says that Saul’s horse reared and Saul fell. The problem I have is that I can’t find a mention of a horse anywhere in the text. I would appreciate someone commenting on this. Is this legend?
The rest of the chapter does an interesting job of tracing many of Paul’s travels and an attempt at outlining what many of the apostles were doing. I wish that he had said more about the travels of the apostles; I know very little about them.
In Chapter Eighteen Dr. Carroll covers 179 years of history and manages to do this in an understandable and cohesive fashion. We see the Church living quietly and outside of the public eye.
His observations about Clement of Rome were interesting – he identifies three of the early Popes, including Clement, as former slaves. The letter from Clement to the Church in Corinth is the first example of a non-apostolic leader exerting the authority of Rome over church affairs in other lands and cities. Clement made it clear that his words to them had to be followed and the Christians in Corinth did comply. Clements letter to Corinth is well worth a close reading, especially for those who may someday wish to be involved in apologetics.
Dr. Carroll then proceeds to cover some very learned churchmen; Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas, Onesimus, St. John, Pius I and St. Cecilia. We also see a number of heresies being started by those who could not stand to follow the Church begun by Christ; so they began their own churches.