Jane Austen discussion

Meet the Morlands,the Allens take Catherine to Bath, they bump in Mr Tilney, literally, then come the Thorpes.

Just a quick observation ladies, it was the Master of Cermonies who introduced Tilney to Catherine in chapter 3.
Would that mean that he requested the introduction? I think the fabulous JJ Feild adaptation had made me forget how they really met. So it would mean that he sought her out. For some reason,
I always felt Tilney kind of accidentally ended up with Catherine, although he does hold her in Affection but his makes me think it was a kind of love at first sight for him.
Or I'm reading waaaaaaaay too much into it!!!

If I recall, sometimes the MC would introduce a gentleman to a lady as a result of the gentleman's request; at other times, the MC would simply make an introduction if he saw the lady partnerless. So I suppose we can't know whether Henry sought her out!

Roseanne wrote: "Just a quick observation ladies, it was the Master of Cermonies who introduced Tilney to Catherine in chapter 3.
Would that mean that he requested the introduction? I think the fabulous JJ Feild ad..."

I don't know why but I've always thought that the master of ceremonies introduced people that he thought should meet. But I like the idea that Tilney asked to be introduced much better!

I have always thought it was because they accidentally spoke about the muslin etc that he then got the MC to introduce them so they could be allowed to talk and then dance. Haven't started yet to read, that might be just the adaptation on my mind!

I am listening to an (unabridged) audible version read by Anna Massey.

I think I took it that Mr King had introduced them by coincidence but there doesn't seem to be anything to say that Mr Tilney didn't ask for the introduction.

I love Mr. Tilney. He is quite my favorite! Such personality!

Mr. And Miss Thorpe are so funny!

I feel sorry for poor Catherine!

Wow! What a beginning. I love JA because she dives right into the story and gets the plot going.

This book is delightful and I have not stopped smiling or laughing. (I dearly love to laugh.) Loving the satire on "other" novels and heroines - too funny!

I think Catherine's innocence and gullibility is going to lead her into some trouble. I'm not sure what I think of Mr. Tilney yet, but I don't really like Mr. Thorpe at this point. Perhaps Catherine's brother will play a significant role in this story - maybe he'll protect his sister? (Don't spoil it for me, please - this is the first time I've read this one!)

Looking forward to the next chapters.

Thank you for that Amy, it was so fascinating how the social network operated back in those days! I was thinking Sir William would be a perfect MC.. I'd like to think in my mind that Henry was friendly with the MC,
expressed an interest in Catherine out of every other lady in the room, and pressed for an introduction:))) sigh.......:)

Thanks for posting the article that demystifies the master of ceremonies.

A very delightful read.

I think it's likely based on the way it's worded that the master of ceremonies chose to make the introduction without it being requested. Which leaves me wondering -- from what I've read about places like Almack's (perhaps things were more stringent there), the whole purpose was to make sure young people of equal social standing were introduced to each other. Marriage for love was becoming more of a recognized thing, so now the trick was to ensure no one met (and fell in love with) someone either too far above or below them in standing. It was the illusion of free will!

I'd forgotten that Catherine's father had two livings and an additional independence; if he and his wife hadn't popped out ten kids and needed to divide fortune among them, she might have had a pretty substantial dowry. So did the master of ceremonies specifically think she was a good match for Henry? She is, additionally, the daughter of a clergyman, and he is a clergyman. Or was the master of ceremonies just trying to keep all the young ladies who wanted to dance dancing, and indiscriminately matched the two of them?

Sophie, I think the master of ceremonies introduced them bec they each needed a dance partner. And that's part of his duties to bring together people are w/o a partner. I would love to think that HT saw C across a crowded ballroom and asked for an intro, but I think their meeting was a random thing.

In the meantime, Mr Allen makes inquiries about HT to make sure he's someone appropriate--his stupid wife should have done this as Cs chaperone.

Did Mr Allen speak to the master of ceremonies to find out HTs credentials?

At a private ball, the hostess seems to be the one to fulfill the MCs role-making sure that everyone has a dance partner, making introductions and vouching for people in the way that someone has to Mr Allen for HT.

Yes I think that seems more likely Andrea. It was almost like regency match making!

Mrs Allen was such an inappropriate escort for Catherine I wonder how her parents came to think it a good idea. Maybe they were relying on Mr Allen filling the void but I still think it was lax on her parents part.

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Sophie, I think the master of ceremonies introduced them bec they each needed a dance partner. And that's part of his duties to bring together people are w/o a partner. I would love to think that ..."

Agreed on the part about Mr Allen. Catherine's parents probably assumed that he would take the lead and "guide" Mrs Allen. Thank goodness Catherine has a bit of sense!

Roseanne wrote: "Yes I think that seems more likely Andrea. It was almost like regency match making!

Mrs Allen was such an inappropriate escort for Catherine I wonder how her parents came to think it a good idea. ..."

I agree, Roseanne. Mrs. Allen is pretty oblivious, unless it has to do with fine clothing. It does seem a little too trusting of Mr. and Mrs. Morland to have let Catherine go with them. It's good Catherine is innocent and a good girl, otherwise there might be a Lydia Bennet situation unfolding.

Faint but pursuing, I just got started last night. What strikes me this time around in the early chapters is (1) a certain awkwardness in Jane Austen’s style—not so many of those wonderful, polished, exquisite sentences—and (2) an uneven tone. The defense of novels in chapter 5 goes on way too long, and is reverted to thereafter; we waver from laughing detachment to mental intimacy with the heroine; and in general she talks too much about the story instead of simply telling it. She also seems to be alternately boasting of her knowledge and deprecating knowledge: all a little immature.

Still, there’s the promise of greatness to come in the way Isabella (and other characters) unconsciously reveal their flaws, and I enjoy the way JA plays with novelistic conventions the way a cat plays with a bird. Of course, I can’t overlook Henry Tilney, my favorite JA hero.

Henry Tilney is also my favorite JA hero.

Totally agree, Abigail. There's a certain heavy-handedness as a narrator that Austen left behind in later works.

I wonder how it would have been received had it been published first, with her an unknown author, rather than last bound with "Persuasion," her most immature and mature works together to be compared.

I wonder too whether she might have reworked it more, if her health had allowed, and what would have resulted.

Sophie wrote: "Totally agree, Abigail. There's a certain heavy-handedness as a narrator that Austen left behind in later works.

I wonder how it would have been received had it been published first, with her an ..."

I assume everyone knows that it should have been published first? A publisher actually purchased the rights to it and then, to what was Jane Austen's great frustration, never actually published it. She could not understand why a publisher would do that - I think it is obvious that he changed his mind, and decided that gothic fan fiction might not be such a good idea after all - but he would not return the rights to her unless she returned him 10£. Alas, for many years, that was a sum beyond her means and so she could not get it back for a long time.

Later, when she was finally having some success, her brother Henry (now we know the source of the name of the hero in the book) managed to negotiate the return of the rights of the manuscript. The publisher did not know that the author was the author of the very successful Pride & Prejudice and Sense & Sensibility, or he would never have let it out.

Hmm...interesting perspectives on the writing and publishing side of this novel. While I agree it is less polished that some of the other books, I like the writing style better than S&S. S&S was just so hard when I read it the first time; the characters seemed a little lifeless for a while. At least Catherine has personality and character!

Really enjoy these first few chapters. :)

Abigail wrote: "Faint but pursuing, I just got started last night. What strikes me this time around in the early chapters is (1) a certain awkwardness in Jane Austen’s style—not so many of those wonderful, polishe..."

This may not be JAs best novel, but I think it has the best hero and heroine!

I like Henry Tilney and Catherine better than any other of her hero/heroine.

I won't Abigail over the inferiority of her writing here, but it is interesting that as her writing improved, the quality of hero/heroine does not get better than Henry (how I hate that name!) and Catherine in this early effort.

Abigail wrote: "Faint but pursuing, I just got started last night. What strikes me this time around in the early chapters is (1) a certain awkwardness in Jane Austen’s style—not so many of those wonderful, polishe..."

I agree to your first paragraph. Bear in my mind, JA wrote Northanger very early, so it reads like the rest of her Juvenilia. Reading again, I am more amuse at JA's defense of novels, just for pleasure and how important they are to educational books. I felt she went on a little rant at the end of chapter 5 and she made J. Thorpe look like an idiot for dissing women novelists.

It took me a little while to make time for jumping into the novel but a few things stood out for which did not the first time. Also I may be reading more into something that might not be there.
1. Catherine and Mrs. Allen spent all the time in the Upper Rooms but their real enjoyment did not start until they went to the Lower Rooms and they met Mr. Tilney. Why the Lower Rooms. Was it to show how no acquaintances makes Bath dull? Especially since Mrs. Thorpe and Mrs.Allen did not meet right away.
2. Why did JA make Tilney disappear, soon after. Is to show how besotted and attach Catherine became?
3. What is the purpose for Catherine's extreme nativity and innocence?

On another note, notice how smooth Tilney and Catherine
first interaction. How easy the conversation flowed between the two and Tilney disappears. Oh, I like Tilney!

Noirfifre wrote: "It took me a little while to make time for jumping into the novel but a few things stood out for which did not the first time. Also I may be reading more into something that might not be there.
1...."

Hmm...I like your questions.

1) I'd like to know the answer here too. I'm not extremely familiar with the social rooms of Bath, but maybe historical context will explain this?

2) I don't want to spoil the explanation, but Tilney does have a valid reason for disappear which will later show his responsibility. As for Catherine's feelings, I think it's to emphasis and maybe poke fun at a young woman's tendency to swoon and fantasize after one "successful" meeting.

3) Catherine's character seems to be sort of copied from the novels JA is mocking. Also, it adds humor. And it makes Catherine a very likeable character (in my opinion.) And it allows for the humorous situation later in the book - I just don't see Elizabeth Bennet prying into trunks looking for startling secrets and scaring herself silly.

Just my thoughts... What are yours?

I think Catherine's naïveté is normal for what she is, 17 yr old a country clergyman' daughter probably away from home for the first time.

She has now reached age of marriageabilty experiencing attraction to a man. I venture to suspect that the males in her neighborhood all mostly people whom she has known for most of her life. Tilney is unknown, and is charming.

Although Catherine is keenly interested in Tilney, she doesn't flirt or act like a silly boy-crazy girl. She doesn't seem to be making a fool of herself over Tilney.

Isabella, in contrast, is a little older and definitely more worldly and is an active flirt who isn't above "chasing" men.

It has a very sarcastic mocking style, I actually think I like it more as I've gotten older. The later books were more subtle perhaps.

One thing that did leave a lasting impression though was how bored they were in general, because of this book I read The Mysteries of Udolpho and it's no where near as exciting as the young ladies would have us believe!

Thank you for the warning!

I'll avoid Mrs. Radcliff's book.

Oh it's ok if you don't mind nearly 1200 pages of description of the 'Sylvan Hills' of Europe and a heroine that faints constantly and at the worst possible moment. ;)

I didn't realize this book was a "chunkster."

I have never heard that term before LOL

I think there is a GR group with "Chunkster" in the name--all about reading books with a high page count.

Nice, I shall have to look for it! I believe MOU was printed in more than one volume and it could definitely be shortened!

I think in the past, novels were published in volumes, instead of on book as is done today.

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I think Catherine's naïveté is normal for what she is, 17 yr old a country clergyman' daughter probably away from home for the first time.

She has now reached age of marriageabilty experiencing a..."

Well said! I like your reminder that Catherine hasn't met many people before she goes to Bath.

Just to clarify, I don't think Catherine is a flirt or that she has acted inappropriately in her interactions with Henry T. In the chapters 1-7 she likes him... that's fine!

It has a very sarcastic mocking style, I actually think I like it more as I've gotten older. The later books were more subtle perhaps.

One thing that has been striking me as I get further in is that while the style isn't as subtle as Austen's later works, she still has incredible insight into people. The things the characters do, what they say, the motivations that become clear as the book goes along -- there's nothing immature about that at all.

You’re right, Sophie—JA was psychologically acute from a very early age! You even see in the works she wrote as a teenager how she saw through pretenses and poses. And she was also able to present a true-as-gold character like Catherine in a way that wasn’t boringly moralistic.

Sarah wrote: "Noirfifre wrote: "It took me a little while to make time for jumping into the novel but a few things stood out for which did not the first time. Also I may be reading more into something that migh..."

I am afraid I am not familiar with those protocols either Sarah and you can go ahead and spoil because I have read the novel before. Oh but for others who have not... hmm. I do agree that Catherine is likeable and JA do seem to be doing a lot of mocking so far

Louise Sparrow wrote: "It has a very sarcastic mocking style, I actually think I like it more as I've gotten older. The later books were more subtle perhaps.

One thing that did leave a lasting impression though was how ..."
I want to read Mysteries of Udolfo because of its mention in Northanger Abbey but I have not gotten my hand on the book for so long.

Louise Sparrow wrote: "Oh it's ok if you don't mind nearly 1200 pages of description of the 'Sylvan Hills' of Europe and a heroine that faints constantly and at the worst possible moment. ;)"

Hmm, in JA Juvenilia there was lots of fainting as well.