The Next Best Book Club discussion
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The Beautiful Bureaucrat
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The Beautiful Bureaucrat - author/reader discussion
Definitely interested in this one since I live in cubeland at work. In US, prefer digital copy. I agree to actively participate in the discussion. Thanks!
I would love a chance at a copy of The Beautiful Bureaucrat! I live in the US, and am definitely available to take part in the discussion starting 11/16.my email: belle5861@gmail.com
I will gladly accept any copy form you have to give :)
This novel sounds great! I'd love a chance at a copy. I'm in the US. I prefer print, but ebook would be OK. I'll participate in the discussion whether or not I'm a winner. My email: cjmckee71@hotmail.com. Thanks!
I would love a copy of the book either print or ebook is fine. I am in the US and agree to take part in the discussion. Email address is amarie.k0788@gmail.com
this sounds interesting. I would like to participate in the discussion. I am in the US and though I prefer e format either is fine.
Yet another pick that looks fabulous. I would love to win a copy. I live in the US, agree to participate in the discussion and I would prefer a print copy.
Please include me. I live in the US, prefer a print copy, and agree to participate.
This looks like an awesome one -- I'm in Australia and so would need a digital copy, and I always enjoy the discussions with authors, so very happy to participate.If you have more people wanting a copy than books, though, you can knock me off the list, because I've had a few through the group this year, and I don't want to be a book-hog. I will track down my own copy prior to the discussion if this happens. :)
Having just left a data entry job I think that this would be a great read. I agree to participate in the discussion. I live in the US and would prefer a print copy of the book.
I agree to take part in the discussion. I would like a print copy and I live in the US.
I would love to participate in this discussion. I live in the US. email: emylondon@gmail.com
Love to take part in the discussion! I'd like a NetGalley, and I'm based in Scotland. My e-mail address is lindaboa1972@gmail.com. Fingers crossed!
Mod
Congrats to everyone!!
I'll be in touch shortly to get your deets and a confirmation before I forward your info over to the publisher!
: )
Hi Lori, just wanted you to know I received my book today, thank you :). I'm looking forward to the read and discussion!
I received my book today as well!
My book came yesterday. I'm looking forward to the discussion!
Got my electronic version, ready to roll!
Read 4 chapters last night, very interesting!
Mod
The discussion starts tomorrow, but I'm kicking things off tonight since I'll be at work all day tomorrow.
Helen,
Thanks so much for joining us, again : )
I'm so thrilled you're back here for another conversation.
You've been published by both small and big presses. In your experience, what are some of the pro's and con's of being published by each?
Hello, Helen!I'm getting my first question in early so I can sleep in tomorrow, muwhahaha! I'm curious whether you work in a cubicle or have a data-entry job. Was any of the work aspect of the book inspired by a real-life job?
I loved the spare, succinct language of the book, and I find myself often inexplicably *excited* when reading books that are both in a way minimalist and which also contain fantastical elements. What do you think is most challenging about writing fiction that is both imaginative and concise?
Hello, Helen, Thank you for joining us! One aspect of The Beautiful Bureaucrat I found interesting is that you never named the city where it takes place, nor "the hinterlands," where Josephine and her husband come from. To me, this added to the fantastical tone, but I'd like to hear your thoughts about why you chose not to name them.
Hello, Everyone! Thank you so much for hosting me again, Lori, and thanks so much to all of you for your interest in the book. It's an honor to be able to share and discuss the book with serious readers. To answer your questions in order:
1) Lori: I have loved all of my publishing experiences--a very small indie press for my collection of flash fiction (And Yet They Were Happy, published by Leapfrog Press), a division of Random House for my middle-grade adventure novel (Here Where the Sunbeams Are Green, Delacorte Press), and now Henry Holt for The Beautiful Bureaucrat. Anytime someone wants to put their energy and resources into publishing a book that I've spent years writing in solitude, I pretty much love that person! And I've had wonderful collaborative relationships with each of my editors. One thing I loved about the small press experience was that my husband, Adam Thompson, who's an artist, got to be very involved in the cover design. I will say, though, that it has been an incredible experience to have the power of Macmillan/Henry Holt behind The Beautiful Bureaucrat--I have been very impressed by everyone who works there, and there's so much a big publishing house can do to promote a book.
2) Leah: How did you guess?! Yes, for four years I had a job at a public university that involved a good deal of data entry during admissions season. Josephine's job is a huge exaggeration of my experience there (I actually liked lots of other elements of the job).
3) Rick: I love this question, and it was something I was thinking about a lot in writing the book. I wanted it to be magical and spare at the same time. So on the one hand I'm influenced by writers who build incredible alternate worlds (Calvino, Kafka, Borges, Atwood, Le Guin, Marquez, etc) and on the other hand I'm influenced by writers who are extremely concise with their language (Lydia Davis, Hempel). The book used to be twice as long as it is. In cutting it in half, I found that spareness that I was seeking. But it took me 7+ years to write the book and to figure out that fantastical/minimalist balance, and I think the primary challenge was evoking a convincing alternate world but in light brush strokes. A lot of times we think of fantastical writing as being very lush, and I love reading that kind of thing, but in my own work, I love the jarring rhythms created by a more minimalist approach to language.
4) Constance: Yes! You've intuited why I kept these places nameless--it was in the interest of the fantastical, timeless, quasi-fairytale world I was aiming to evoke. I will admit, though, that the decision to keep the city itself nameless came very late in the game, a suggestion from my wise editor Sarah Bowlin in the final round of revision. There were a few markers still pegging the story to Brooklyn/New York (which is where I live), and she thought I should remove them since they worked against the fantastical quality. She was absolutely right. I want it to be an every city.
Thanks again to all!
Thanks, Helen. It's interesting to hear about editing befores and afters. It had seemed something like New York, but not quite. On another topic: I love the touch of humor you use in the book: The Man with No Face/ The Person with Bad Breath, a woman named Trishiffany, Diagnostic Laboratory/ Agnostic Laboratory and the many plays on words by Josephine and Joseph. And yet this is a serious book, profound in many ways. Could you comment on how you managed to find a balance between the humor and the seriousness? It seems like it might be a delicate balance.
Thank you Helen! I also am very fond of these jarring rhythms. I can imagine how whittling down the language can add lots of time to the writing process, but I think it's absolutely worth it. Though I can't help but be curious now -- do you think there are bits that you've cut that will have lives of their own elsewhere (as short stories etc)?
Hello Helen! I'm interested to know what inspired making the data entry about life and death? I'm so glad my data entry job is not! haha
Hi Helen,First, I would like to thank you for the giveaway opportunity. I work in a windowless office, and sometimes I feel the craziness of being confined within those walls. There are definitely some interesting individuals employed where I work, and my coworkers and I have brainstormed some over the top exaggerating stories. It is kind of difficult not to have an active imagination in that setting. But I must say I really didn't expect where this book was headed, but i enjoyed the journey. The quirkiness and the play with words made this a real page turner. I am curious how you choose this genre. Is it your preferred genre to read? Who are some of your favorite authors / inspirations?
Mod
Helen, how was it for you, writing someone like that? Is that similar or opposite of your own personality?
Hi all--I'm really enjoying hearing your reactions and questions. Thank you. Constance: I'm so glad you picked up on the humor of the book. That's a very important element of it for me, and sometimes I worry that readers might not notice it amid the overall dark & creepy tone. I think that humor is one step away from heartbreak. Something funny is often the flip-side of something profound. For instance, people always laugh at readings when Josephine starts calling her boss The Person With Bad Breath (I think we can all relate to this sort of issue); and at the same time, the bad breath is ultimately intended to link TBWBB to the smell of death. Kafka (perhaps obviously) has been a major influence on my sense of humor--the humor of something absurd delivered very matter-of-factly, or of a character maintaining an irrational level of optimism under very bleak circumstances. I have also been influenced by the humor of the Coen Brothers--the hilariousness of the random eccentric side character who suddenly gets a cameo.
Rick: I'm glad the jarring rhythms resonate with you. There's so much material that I cut, and I saved all of it in a separate Word document. I feel pretty confident that some lines/images/scenes will find new life. Most notably, there was a lively group of characters called The Wives of Men Who Abandon (WOMWA). In an early draft, Josephine attended some of their booze-soaked meetings. It didn't quite work in this book and I ended up having Hillary play that role on her own, but I was really fond of the women of WOMWA and may have to bring them to life in some other project.
Ashley: I know, thank goodness our data-entry stakes aren't usually so high! One day as I was sitting at my own data entry job, I just had this intense, paranoid, creepy flash of a thought--what if these names that I'm typing belong to people who are fated to die soon? I've always had an imagination that tilts toward the macabre ... which makes me think of Kim's comment that "It is kind of difficult not to have an active imagination in that setting" ...
Kim: You sound like the ideal reader for this book in terms of relatability! I'm glad your coworkers offer some refuge/entertainment. And I'm honored that you found it a page-turner. My goal was to write a book that would hopefully be a page-turner while also taking on some of the biggest questions. My friend Elliott Holt called it "an existential thriller," a description that I love. Yes, I love reading things that are up this alley--Kafka, obviously, Borges, Calvino, Atwood, Vonnegut, Shirley Jackson, Kelly Link. I also thought a lot about Gone Girl in terms of the page-turner quality. And again, the Coen brothers have been a big influence--the way their movies take a genre (Western, mystery, etc) and give it new, quirky life.
Lori: Ha, yes, you are not the first to find Josephine's behavior totally exasperating! For much of the book, she is observes rather than acts. I too am probably more of an observer type than an actor type--though I would have tried to quit this job long before she did! Josephine is an extreme version of the observer type. But I hope that her act of rebellion at the end (to steal his file) shows some kind of growth, some kind of grit that we didn't realize she had--a new kind of ferocity inspired by her pregnancy.
Thanks again to all of you!
Hi Helen! I just want to thank you for the book and for joining us here to discuss it. I read it in one afternoon, couldn't put it down! I just want to know how on earth those two didn't know they were working in the same building?
Yes, to Patricia and Lori's point, it bugged me that Josephine never questioned her husband about his job, why he stayed so late, etc. She seems to just take the weird events in her life In stride (like how the package from the post office kept following her) or how Joseph knew she was pregnant.
Mod
I do not work in an office type of environment so it is sometimes hard to relate to these situations. I love the humor and quirkiness of this story - along with the mysterious creepiness. It made me want to keep reading. I was wondering if you based your characters, in part at least, on people you have experiences with. Life is so full of many unique people, how do you choose the characteristics you use with your characters?
Hi Helen; thanks for sharing the book with us. I really enjoyed the twists and turns, and how some of the smaller things were embedded into the narrative; e.g. the wordplay around delivery/foreshadowing around children; the eyes; and the use of colour. I also liked going back and forth to things like the initial file as I learned more about the job and the world Josephine lived in. My first question would be around whether you planned some of those things, or if they organically grew as you wrote. My observation as a reader on the idea of an "every city"; I am not American, and I found the setting to be quite American -- I did wonder for a while if there were context cues that US readers would use to know it was implicitly a particular city, so I'm interested to read that a lot of them were stripped back in the final editing process. I felt for a lot of the time as I read it like I should recognise it...like I almost recognised it, but didn't.
Re: Josephine as someone who goes with the flow -- I live in a city that runs on bureaucracy; isn't that practically the definition of a perfect bureaucrat? I reckon if she were another type of personality, she might not have made that interview...
So--The Person with Bad Breath's breath was the scent of death--wonderful!! I think I must've linked the two in my mind without being aware of it. He was just so creepy! About the book cover: I like it. It's attention-getting. But I was initially unclear why this image was chosen for the cover, since the pomegranate itself is only a tiny part of the narrative. I would've thought, instead, of an image of a stark building. On the other hand, I can associate the pomegranate with fertility, and the insect could relate to the last scene, when they're fleeing the building containing all the files of all the creatures of the world. How was this image decided on? Did you have input into this design?
Patricia wrote: "Hi Helen! I just want to thank you for the book and for joining us here to discuss it. I read it in one afternoon, couldn't put it down! I just want to know how on earth those two didn't know they ..."Hi Patricia! I'm honored to hear that you read the book in one sitting--that's my favorite kind of reading experience. In the first chapter, The Person With Bad Breath swears Josephine to secrecy about her job; toward the end of the book, we learn that Joseph was also sworn to secrecy. In the second chapter, Joseph gives a toast "To bureaucrats with boring office jobs! May we never discuss them at home!" So they both are making an effort to keep their home life separate from their work life. Also, the building is so large that they actually use different subway stops--they know that they work near each other, but they don't know it's the same building.
Lori wrote: "Yes, to Patricia and Lori's point, it bugged me that Josephine never questioned her husband about his job, why he stayed so late, etc. She seems to just take the weird events in her life In stride ..."Josephine's world is not quite our world--it's a slightly alternate, darker, exaggerated version of reality, almost a fantastical or fairytale world (as discussed when Constance brought up the location issue). And along with that, Josephine's actions (or lack thereof) are intended to be a slightly exaggerated version of what might be called "realistic." Josephine is in the lineage of Gregor Samsa--he is strangely matter-of-fact about his transformation into a huge insect, just as she is relatively matter-of-fact about the increasing absurdities in her life. My hope is that Josephine's behavior, if not realistic for our world, feels believable in the context of her alternate world. I realize that this will not work for all readers! But many of the absurd antiheroes out there, whose behavior is not totally rational (Bartelby, Gregor), have resonated deeply with me ...
Diane wrote: "I do not work in an office type of environment so it is sometimes hard to relate to these situations. I love the humor and quirkiness of this story - along with the mysterious creepiness. It made m..."Thanks for tapping into the humor/quirkiness/creepiness, Diane! These characters--Trishiffany, TPWBB, Hillary--are not based on anyone I know; all of them came to me pretty fully formed, who knows from where! The central couple of Josephine and Joseph takes some inspiration from my own marriage in a sense, in that I was trying to present a good relationship in all its complexity, with closeness and distance, sharing and privacy.
Cory wrote: "Hi Helen; thanks for sharing the book with us. I really enjoyed the twists and turns, and how some of the smaller things were embedded into the narrative; e.g. the wordplay around delivery/foreshad..."Thanks for your observations, Cory, and for noticing the way the little details add up to hints about what's going on. As I mentioned earlier, it took me seven years to write the book, and it was pretty late in the game (year 5 and a half or so) that I really started to get organized in terms of plotting out the placement of all the clues and sorting out the exact timing. They were all there, and had emerged organically in the writing process, but it was a large task (involving an intricate calendar and many highlighters!) to make it all line up. As a writer, I generally start with images and then work backward toward plot ... not efficient, but the only way I know how to do it! My hope is that this enables the plot to ultimately feel organic rather than imposed.
I'm interested in your observation that though this city is an unnamed "every city", it does read as clearly American to you (and, as mentioned, is indeed based on NYC). What makes it seem specifically American, do you think? I like the feeling you describe, an almost uncanny feeling:
"I felt for a lot of the time as I read it like I should recognise it...like I almost recognised it, but didn't."
And thanks for your point about Josephine--yes, I think there are a lot of bureaucrats out there who don't have much option but to go with the flow ...
Constance wrote: "So--The Person with Bad Breath's breath was the scent of death--wonderful!! I think I must've linked the two in my mind without being aware of it. He was just so creepy! About the book cover: I l..."
Hi again, Constance! Yes, the creation of a cover is always quite a journey ... the first draft of the cover that the publisher showed me was a woman's torso with an enormous red flower obscuring her face. It was kind of Magritte style so cool in that way, but I really had a problem with the huge red flower because (a) I think it's a cliche to put flowers on the covers of books by women, and I think it could potentially limit its readership, and (b) because there are no huge red flowers in the book. So I counter-offered--how about a pomegranate rather than a flower? Because the pomegranate does play a small yet pivotal role in the book as a point of connection/disconnection between her and Joseph (and is mythologically powerful in terms of the story of Hades and Persephone--because she eats 6 pomegranate seeds, she must spend half of the year in Hades--just as Josephine is entering an underworld of her own in this book).
And, I love your interpretation:
"I can associate the pomegranate with fertility, and the insect could relate to the last scene, when they're fleeing the building containing all the files of all the creatures of the world."
Hi Helen, Thank you for the opportunity to read this book. The minimalist tones of this book seemed to highlight the mindlessness of the data processing tasks of Josephine.
What is the significance of the reconstructed language Josephine uses throughout the book? Is it a sign of mental imbalance on her part, a coping mechanism, or simply wordplay?
Thank you again.
Emily
Hi Helen. You mentioned in an earlier comment that the book was once twice as long. I'm interested in what you cut and why. Did you cut entire plot threads/characters, or was it more individual moments? How did the cuts change the book?
I think it was a combination of things that led to it feeling "American" -- some of it was in the narrative voice (e.g. the currency used, the Bodega), which evoked the US, and some of it was in the geography of the city and the living conditions. I can definitely see New York in it -- the subway (with stops so close a really big building can span them!), the city park, things like that. But for a while at the beginning, I was thinking maybe Chicago. No idea why. I've only been to a very few US cities; maybe that's it! I thought that the plot did feel organic. There were a few nice moments I had of everything clicking into place, like the (view spoiler)
Re: the pomegranate -- I don't have a cover on mine (galley copy), but I immediately went to Persephone when it came up in the narrative. But then, I believe the pomegranate is also one of the fruits posited as a potential for the "fruit of knowledge", and there's enough in there that if one wanted to do a religious reading (the modern version of the alpha and the omega on the side of the building,(view spoiler) some of the names, I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing) then I reckon it would be supportable. I do enjoy that you've written it so that there's the possibility of multiple interpretations. I think there's a bunch of lenses through which you could examine it and it would hold up.
I'm glad they let you go without the flower. I went to an author talk with Graeme Simsion, and he said that his one thing for "The Rosie Project" was that his adult son needed to be able to go into a bookshop and not be ashamed to pick it up, and I think that's the same with the pomegranate cover.
hi Helen thank you for taking the time to answer questions. I also read the book in one sitting primarily because I had to know if Josephine was going to be alright. Her isolation was heartbreaking to me and her reliance on the waitress Hillary for a support system was tragic. What made you include the sham psychic? Were any other supporting characters cut during the editing process?
Emily wrote: "Hi Helen, Thank you for the opportunity to read this book. The minimalist tones of this book seemed to highlight the mindlessness of the data processing tasks of Josephine.
What is the significan..."
Hi Emily--thanks so much for reading, and for your observation about the way the minimalism suits the subject matter.
I'm not sure if you've reached the end of the book (if not, spoiler alert!): The reconstructed language is the voice of Josephine's fetus talking to her. The voice begins the day after the conception and continues through to the miscarriage. Of course, for most of that time, Josephine doesn't realize that she's pregnant, and the jarring mixed-up language seems (to both her and to the reader) like a sign of her mental instability due to the anxiety of the job.
It took me a long time to figure out what the voice of the embryo should be. In earlier drafts, it was a sort of encouraging little devil-or-angel-on-her-shoulder voice, but that ended up feeling cheesy, so I tried to think about how a person would talk if they were just encountering language for the first time--the way they would react to it on a sound level more than on a meaning level, and the way the meaning might arise organically from the sound ...
Peg wrote: "Hi Helen. You mentioned in an earlier comment that the book was once twice as long. I'm interested in what you cut and why. Did you cut entire plot threads/characters, or was it more individual mom..."Hi Peg--thanks so much for this question! I love talking about the revision process. I was mainly cutting individual moments. Let's say I had four creepy interactions with The Person With Bad Breath ... I'd consolidate those down to one scene, using the best lines/images/moments from each of the four scenes so that I wasn't diluting their effect. Because this is a fairly oppressive atmosphere, I think it's important that the book be short, and that the darkness be punctuated by moments of relief and humor and brightness. In earlier drafts, I was spending more time than necessary evoking the tedium of her job ... in this draft, I tried to do that as efficiently and dynamically (a paradox of sorts, to make a tedious job dynamic!) as possible.
That said, I did cut some characters and plot lines entirely, such as the aforementioned "Wives of Men Who Abandon," and a totally bizarre & random climax that took place in the parking lot of a Cosco.
It was very late in the game that I sorted out all of the twists and turns of the plot, and realized that of course Joseph had to work at the institution as well. So in the revision a lot of what I was doing was re-crafting the material I had to deliver the plot that I finally charted out about five years into the process. I wanted the plot to be intense, gripping, and satisfying (as much as it can be, given the unanswerable questions the book raises)--and I wanted to make sure that every scene/paragraph/sentence/word was driving powerfully toward the overall effect.
Cory wrote: "I think it was a combination of things that led to it feeling "American" -- some of it was in the narrative voice (e.g. the currency used, the Bodega), which evoked the US, and some of it was in th..."Cory--thank you for your ongoing insights. It means a lot to me that those particular moments stood out to you, and that they were moments when everything clicked into place. That's certainly what I was aiming for.
Yes, I am pulling on plenty of Greek mythology (the three-headed dog, the pomegranate of course, the way that Josephine/"Orpheus" goes to beg for the life of Joseph/"Eurydice" before TPWBB/"Hades" and his consort, Trishiffany/"Persephone"). And also a lot of Biblical imagery to: Adam & Eve, the Virgin Mary, the snake on Hillary's arm. The idea of the pomegranate/apple as the fruit of knowledge is important here: Josephine's (unwanted, perhaps) knowledge about what her job is, and Joseph & Josephine's exposure in the final scene to the architecture of life & death.
I appreciate your comment "I do enjoy that you've written it so that there's the possibility of multiple interpretations. I think there's a bunch of lenses through which you could examine it and it would hold up." It's been fascinating for me to read the reviews--some going deep into a religious interpretation, or an existential interpretation, and others reading it as a reflection on big data and the power of the internet etc. My ambition was that it would hit many different notes.
And yes: here's to pomegranates instead of flowers!
Rachelle wrote: "hi Helen thank you for taking the time to answer questions. I also read the book in one sitting primarily because I had to know if Josephine was going to be alright. Her isolation was heartbreaking..."Hi Rachelle--I'm happy to hear that you were worried enough about Josephine that you kept turning the pages! Yes, I did put her in a pretty bleak circumstance (again, I'm working in an exaggerated version of reality here).
Hillary and Trishiffany represent two different ways to respond to the challenge of how to create a meaningful life, given certain limitations on our ability to control our lives. Hillary creates her own belief system--it may be a sham, but actually a lot of what she says in Josephine's original fortune brings Josephine a sense of self-understanding over the course of the book. Trishiffany, on the other hand, is fully entrenched the larger system, but she brings to it her own color and compassion.
You may be interested to know that the wording of Hillary's "fortune" comes directly from a study conducted by Betram Forer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_...) ... the Forer Effect (otherwise known as the Barnum Effect) is the tendency for people to rate a generic personality description as highly accurate. I've always been interested in this effect. It suggests that our inner lives are more similar than we typically acknowledge ... an idea that I find comforting.
There were two supporting characters cut in the editing process: The Man with Two Black Dogs and The Wives of Men Who Abandon. In both cases, they were playing the role of (surreal) allies for Josephine--now Hillary plays that role.
I wanted to let you all know that I am traveling to Florida tomorrow to speak at the Miami Book Fair. If anyone happens to live in Miami, the event is at 2pm on Saturday! I will hopefully be able to answer any further questions tomorrow afternoon when I land but just wanted to explain in advance any delay in my responses. I'm reading alongside Vendela Vida--I just read her book The Diver's Clothes Lie Empty. A very original and intriguing read. Jesse Ball and Joshua Cohen are also on the panel.
Her publisher has given us a total of 15 copies to give away.
10 print, for US residents only, and 5 Netgalleys open internationally!
In order to be considered, you must comment here or on the blog for a shot at winning one and secure a spot in the discussion that kicks off on November 16th:
http://thenextbestbookblog.blogspot.c...
This giveaway will run through October 9th.
Winners will be announced here and via email (if you provide one) on October 10th.
Here's how to enter:
1 - Leave a comment here or in the giveaway thread over at TNBBC's blog (linked above). Let us know if you are in the US or outside the US, and state which format you prefer.
ONLY COMMENT ONCE. MULTIPLE COMMENTS DO NOT GAIN YOU ADDITIONAL CHANCES TO WIN.
2 - State that you agree to participate in the group read book discussion that will run from November 16th through November 22nd. Helen has agreed to participate in the discussion and will be available to answer any questions you may have for her.
*If you are chosen as a winner, by accepting the copy you are agreeing to read the book and join the group discussion right here in this thread next month.
3 - If your goodreads profile is blocked (set on private), please leave me another way to contact you.
GOOD LUCK!!!!