The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Oh my goodness. One shock after another in this section.

Magwitch is Estella's father? I did not see that coming, but it does tie everything together. Because we learn just prior to that revelation that Jaggers' housekeeper is Estella's mother. And when we hear the entire story, Magwitch believes that his child with Estella's mother was killed by her. This is just before he becomes involved with Compeyson.

Of course, the scene with Miss Havisham on fire was the other shocker, the bridal dress burned off of her. And even though she isn't dead, being laid out on the table where she said that she would lay when she was dead.

And lastly, Pip is followed to the theatre, and the man following him is none other than Compeyson.

The conversation with Pip and Miss Havisham wasn't as intense, but interesting because one, she appears afraid of Pip at times, and two, she keeps repeating, "what have I done!"

On a more humorous note, we meet Herbert's intended, Clara, and her grumpy father with his "pegging"; as Herbert calls him, "Gruffandgrim."

Definitely looking forward to see how this all ends! Will Estella find out who her father and mother are? Will Magwitch get to meet his daughter? What will Pip end up doing with his life? Have we seen the last of Miss Havisham?

I'm sorry we haven't had more discussion on this book. This is my favorite Dickens so far, along with David Copperfield. I think Dickens is very masterful with the plot threads.

To any newer readers of Dickens ( I think some have recently joined us), don't be put off by the startling number of coincidences. That was the point, to introduce disparate characters and stories and bring them all together. Resemblance to life outside the novel is irrelevant. In a way Dickens originated mystery stories as much as Wilkie Collins did.

Seeing how disgusted Pip was to find his benefactor was Magwitch, what will the proud Estella think of her parents - 2 low-class condemned criminals? She definitely explodes the "blood will out" theory, having been shaped by Miss Havisham.

Robin wrote: "I'm sorry we haven't had more discussion on this book. This is my favorite Dickens so far, along with David Copperfield. I think Dickens is very masterful with the plot threads.

To any newer read..."

I'm very disappointed as well. Maybe people are tired of Dickens??? Although, I don't know how anyone could be tired of Dickens. :-) Maybe they miss Zulfiya...lol! I'm trying though. No matter what, though, even if there are only a handful of us left, we will finish all his novels. Two more to go after Great Expectations, one which I've never read.

I thought the same about Estella. Pip, at least, comes from humble origins. He obviously isn't pleased, but it isn't going to end his world. For Estella, all that she was brought up to believe will come crumbling down. It will be - I believe - devastating to her.

I’m about ten chapters behind, but still reading when I can!

I finished a few weeks ago. I can't read on a precise schedule

I'm here, but got completely bogged down in A Harlot High and Low, which is now completed.

Agreed that there have been a surprisingly high number of plot twists, even for Dickens. It still isn't clear to me why Pip does not go back to see Joe and Biddy, particularly as he clearly feels guilty for having abandoned them. If he is going to turn his back on his "Expectations" how will he expect to live going forward? Is he going to reveal Estella's parentage to her? I certainly understand the arguments against this course of action (Estella would be crushed to learn of her origins and it might cause significant difficulties in her marriage).

Once again we have a completely undeserving parent being served by a model daughter who puts up with far more than she should. At least the Aged P seems a pleasant sort of papa to have dependent on one.

Finally, we have 2 couples struggling to find a way to get married-Wemmick and Miss Skiffins and Herbert and Clara. I can understand the hesitancy of Herbert and Clara while his financial position is still unclear, however i'm not sure why Wemmick is still waiting.

Frances wrote: "I'm here, but got completely bogged down in A Harlot High and Low, which is now completed.

Agreed that there have been a surprisingly high number of plot twists, even for Dickens. It ..."

I'm up to date here but about 4 weeks behind on A Harlot High & Low!

I guess that Wemmick won't marry while his father is living. Although Miss Skiffins seems to fit in fine, it might be different if they married. At that time, marriage meant children almost immediately and that would upset the balance of things.

Must make for a strange family dynamic-having elders realizing that their children are waiting for them to die so they can get on with their lives.

I want to comment on the ending before this topic is put to sleep. Dickens originally published an ending in which Pip leaves Estella. On Wilkie Collins' advice, he changed it.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/eng...

Way back somewhere, I read a version with both endings. I love happy endings, but I feel the original one was more in keeping with E's character. Pip has changed by the end, but I don't think E has.

One more thing. If you haven't already, view the 1946 David Lean film cast with a brilliant group of Brit film and stage actors: young Alec Guinness as Herbert, Jean Simmons as the young Estella, John Mills as Pip. I've seen several versions since, and, in comparison, I can't even recall who was in the cast. When I read the novel, I picture the 1946 cast in my mind.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038574/f...

I agree with both comments, Rochelle. I have an old old set of complete works with the original inked prints as illustrations (awesome find in an old book store) and it had both endings, as well. Very cool to read both. :)

And the old movie version was superb. The performances are still clear in my head as well. It was just beautiful to look at and the opening scenes were terrifying. Oh my goodness... And Miss Haversham!!!

It's very often shown on TV around Christmas, but it's probably on DVD or VHS.

The casting and directing were magical in the 1946 (Year of my birth, BTW.) Miss Havisham was Martita Hunt, a superb character actress.

The 1989 version with Anthony Hopkins as Magwitch ran 5 hours over several nights, and so covered character development more closely, whereas the 1946 was just 2 hours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_E...

I'm recommending them both to the group.

Rochelle wrote: "I want to comment on the ending before this topic is put to sleep. Dickens originally published an ending in which Pip leaves Estella. On Wilkie Collins' advice, he changed it.

http://academic.bro..."

We haven't gotten to the end yet...no spoilers. :-) Next week, we will finish the book.

Rochelle wrote: "One more thing. If you haven't already, view the 1946 David Lean film cast with a brilliant group of Brit film and stage actors: young Alec Guinness as Herbert, Jean Simmons as the young Estella, J..."

Thanks for the tip - I'll look for it.

Lynnm wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I want to comment on the ending before this topic is put to sleep. Dickens originally published an ending in which Pip leaves Estella. On Wilkie Collins' advice, he changed it.

ht..."

oops.

I am still with you, guys, have just been caught up in other things.

I will read the last 2 novels with you, which I have not read yet. As I have read this one before it might not intrigue me as much as when I read it for the first time. Then I could not keep my hands off it, and read the novel within a week, but I was in a different mood and working situation.

I have always loved this novel despite the (as I would call it) Dickensian coincidences.
These chapters had some passages/ details I had quite forgotten.
I think the most interesting is the change in Miss Havisham. She seems to regret that she turned Estella into such a cold-hearted young woman when becoming aware how hurt Pip is.

Was the fire an accident or an attempt to commit suicide out of despair? To me it seems more of an accident due to negligence, but I saw a BBC adaption of 2011 last week which makes it almost deliberate (at least a lot of negligence on her side and no Pip to save her).

Herbert is really a nice and honestly good-hearted fellow taking care of Pip, helping him with Magwitch and waiting for his being able to marry his Clara. He is rather "normal" compared to all the drama in Pip's life.

And yes, Clara is another devoted, caring, good girl of a daughter, the Dickensian stereotype of a young woman. We can probably go through all his novels in the end and compare them. What was the name of the Nicholas Nickleby's beloved who was supposed to marry that creepy old man and had this tyrannical father? I cannot recall her name right now (sitting at Copenhagen's airport and getting constantly disturbed by announcements).

As I read it, I thought of the fire as an accident. That it might be suicide didn't occur to me, but it is definitely a reasonable explanation.

Madeline Bray. I had to look it up because I didn't remember...all the novels have become jumbled together. A person would have to devote all their time to reading and rereading his novels to keep everything straight. :-)