The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

December's theme is short stories. Nominations will be open until November 4. Please nominate a short story collection.

I would like to propose two very short books (just in case one of them is not eligible in this poll)

A Christmas Carol by C Dickens
and What men live by by L Tolstoy

Hi, guys!

I nominate The Wonderful Wizard of OZ:

Or, in case you already read this one in this club, I nominate The Invisible Man, by H. G. Wells: .

I nominate The God of His Fathers and Other Klondyke Tales by Jack London

I didn't think I could come up with any decent picks for short-stories, 1800-1910 but finally managed to stumble over several interesting choices in the lowest depths of my to-read shelf.

Chief among them is this:

The Scaffold And Other Cruel Tales by the unusual and eccentric symbolist author, Villiers de L'Isle-Adam. This author is off in a pasture of his own. Sometimes he wrote horror; sometimes romance; sometimes fantasy and proto sci-fi; sometimes poetry; and some of his works are mixtures of all these. An author well worth discovering if you've never encountered him before.

Availability: at least ten copies on Amazon but a bit pricey. $16.

As my second nomination I offer this: The Complete Fairy Tales by Oscar Wilde. Many format choices; all inexpensive.

Just a reminder. We are doing short stories in December. Novels and novellas are not being considered. I will put them on our tbr shelf

Trollope, as one might expect from how prolific he was, wrote a number of short stories. The volume of The Complete Shorter Fiction is too lengthy (at 959 pages) for us to tackle the whole book over the holidays, but Trollope published them in five collections which may still be in print, and if not should be available on line from Gutenberg or other sources, so we could easily choose a selection of short stories to read.

How can one not want to read "An Unprotected Female at the Pyramids," or "The Man who Kept his Money in a Box," or "The Last Austrian Who Left Venice," or "Not if I Know It," or even "Why frau Frohmann Raised her Prices."

BTW, I am intentionally NOT nominating Christmas at Thompson Hall: And Other Christmas Stories. Personally I get overloaded with Christmas stories at this time of the year and don't need to read them in yet another group!

The decadent Villiers seems an interesting choice for the dark December days - six of his stories and some additional info can be found here: https://www.prismnet.com/~larrybob/vi...

If we are restricted to one nomination, I have used mine with Trollope, but I would also point out that Thomas Hardy, another author who fits squarely into our time frame, wrote several short story collections in case anybody else here is a Hardy fan and would like to nominate some of his work.

http://www.darlynthomas.com/hardyshor...

I'm a big fan of Hardy's novels but I've never read any of his short stories so if there is indeed a one nomination rule then I'll nominate Hardy's short stories, otherwise I second the nomination.

I'd like to nominate The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. It is one of my all time favorite short stories!

Patience wrote: "I'd like to nominate The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. It is one of my all time favorite short stories!"

One of my favorites too, unfortunately she's not in the time period we cover. Too bad because her short stories are wonderful

Deborah wrote: "Patience wrote: "I'd like to nominate The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. It is one of my all time favorite short stories!"

One of my favorites too, unfortunately she's not in the ti..."

I had the same thought and was going to make the same exception, but decided to look it up to be sure. Although Gilman lived until 1935, and like you I consider her a 20th century writer, The Yellow Wallpaper was, according to Wikipedia, written in 1890 and published in 1892, so it does actually fit in our time frame.

That was a surprise to me -- I had thought it was much more recent than that.

Everyman wrote: "That was a surprise to me -- I had thought it was much more recent than that...."

Surprise to me, too. I stumbled onto this Wiki page today looking for something different:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

I'll nominate "The Awakening" (1899) by Kate Chopin, which I find provocative (and sad) in a different way than Gilman's classic. Or maybe we shouldn't have voting force those two books to compete for reader attention here.

Lily wrote: "Surprise to me, too. I stumbled onto this Wiki page today looking for something different:
"

Which of course raises the question "what is Feminist Literature," particularly since the concept of feminist criticism didn't really emerge until the 1960s (Penguin Dictionary of Literary Terms) and the term Feminism 1895 (OED).

For just one example, why is Jane Eyre considered feminist literature but Northanger Abbey isn't?

Everyman wrote, “For just one example, why is Jane Eyre considered feminist literature but Northanger Abbey isn’t?”

Because of the position of the heroine vis-à-vis the hero: Catherine Morland is acted upon by Henry Tilney, and Jane Eyre, within the confines of her society, chooses for herself the direction of her life. Novels that depict women as having agency could be considered feminist.

Everyman wrote: "...the concept of feminist criticism didn't really emerge until the 1960s (Penguin Dictionary of Literary Terms) and the term Feminism 1895 (OED)...."

Somehow the analogy that comes to me is that the ancient Hebrew word for wind or breath is often translated "spirit." Can a concept predate the word that names it?

I love that given the right group of people a book nomination thread can descend (and ascend) into the philosophy of language in the span of three posts. What an awesome question, Lily!

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Patience wrote: "I'd like to nominate The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. It is one of my all time favorite short stories!"

One of my favorites too, unfortunately she..."

Thank you for checking this. Yeah, the yellow wallpaper is in.

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "Surprise to me, too. I stumbled onto this Wiki page today looking for something different:
"

Which of course raises the question "what is Feminist Literature," particularly since the ..."

While literature may not have been labeled feminist, the Victorians dealt with the women question which is truly early feminism

Lily wrote: "Can a concept predate the word that names it? "

Certainly it can, and probably usually does. I suspect it's much more often that way than creating the term first and then the concept.

But when there is no term, it may be a bit more challenging to decide what would have fit under the term if it had existed then.

Everyman wrote: "...But when there is no term, it may be a bit more challenging to decide what would have fit under the term if it had existed then. ...."

I have so many fits and starts with categorization that I often find fitting concept, or "reality," within category difficult! LOL

Sorry, posted in wrong forum.

Lily wrote: "Can a concept predate the word that names it? ..."

This is the nature of all concepts, when you think about it. Concept (a materialization of an idea) always comes first. It's basic Platonic theory.

(You) can't 'create' any 'thing' unless you access the initial idea--then mold some malleable material into a form which imitates that idea (using art, to make it incarnate), then name it.

Then you find that the Japanese or the Chinese named it before you. Then you find that Stephen King already wrote about it before even that.

Feliks wrote: "
(You) can't create any 'thing' unless you access the idea first,"

Lewis Carroll named the Frumious Bandersnatch. Do you think he created the idea of one before he created the name? Or did he just create the name without having any particular thing in mind? I ask because there once was a Frumious Bandersnatch; one year I went to Halloween party as the Frumious Bandersnatch. So the thing existed.

And the Alice in Wonderland movies have also created one.

There was also a band called the Frumious Bandersnatch.

So didn't the word come first here, then the thing, or things?

Deborah wrote: "While literature may not have been labeled feminist, the Victorians dealt with the women question which is truly early feminism
..."

Everyone's been struggling with the woman question since the early hominids first crept down out of the trees.

Latest update: still no solution

Feliks wrote: "Latest update: still no solution "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U55m_...

Am amused by the framing of the “question” or problem in 26 and 27, since the frames rather exemplify the dilemma—the males being seen as the “us” and the females as the “other” in both. I, for one, have always considered myself more of a Borogove (being rather mimsy) than a Frumious Bandersnatch!

Abigail wrote: "Am amused by the framing of the “question” or problem in 26 and 27, since the frames rather exemplify the dilemma—the males being seen as the “us” and the females as the “other” in both.."

Whew. I'm relieved that you're amused rather than angered.

But aren't men's desires much simpler and easier to understand than women's? Sex, food, sex, power, sex. Pretty simple.

I wouldn’t care to generalize about men’s desires.

We don't mind. Generalize away. See, the admirable aspect of men is that we're never afraid to admit to being the pigs we are.

Jacob wrote: "I love that given the right group of people a book nomination thread can descend (and ascend) into the philosophy of language in the span of three posts. What an awesome question, Lily!"

Wait till we discuss the meaning of life!

Everyman wrote: "Feliks wrote: "
(You) can't create any 'thing' unless you access the idea first,"

Lewis Carroll named the Frumious Bandersnatch. Do you think he created the idea of one before he created the name?..."


I'm curious what a Frumious Bandersnatch costume looks like. I usually come as a blood vessel.

"Lewis Carroll named the Frumious Bandersnatch. Do you think he created the idea of one before he ..."

If I'm traveling in Turkey and speaking to a native of that country and they use a funny-sounding word (funny sounding to my ears) I might subsequently return home and mistakenly mention 'what I think' this phrase means to my friends. Later, I discover my idea turns out to have nothing to do with what the item really is. I've simply chosen another concept from my own land to suit it. Mis-assigned it, by accident. The usage takes off though, and becomes widely used.

Am I responsible in that case, for coining the original concept to which the Turks gave one name, and to which the Britons might give another? Much less, am I responsible for originating the idea which some unknown early Canaanite or Chaldean undoubtedly formed the shape of as he toiled over a primitive lathe, clay-wheel, or kiln?

Carroll simply used the oddities of language--in 'grab-bag' fashion--to 'fish for an idea' which already existed in our communal pool. He sought 'some kind of unfamiliar organism' to apply his word-play to. Keeping the funny-sounding phrase in one part of his mind, he dug around among existing concepts held in another part of his mind, until he found a concept-of-a-creature suitably silly enough to match the phrase he began with. But no matter what the word 'Bandersnatch' represents to him or to any of us, Lewis Carroll is not responsible for the invention of multifarious, mythical beasts.

In the same way, a modern-day designer of a 'cool concept car' is not responsible for first stumbling over the idea of wheeled locomotion. He's just a member of a profession which takes existing ideas and makes variations of them, for the purpose of industry.

While I'm enjoying the discussion, can we please continue it in our chat area. This thread is for December nominations.

Deborah wrote: "While I'm enjoying the discussion, can we please continue it in our chat area. This thread is for December nominations."

Sorry.

The poll is up. Please note A Christmas Carol and The Wizard of Oz were not included as they are more novellas. The Invisible Man was not included as it is outside our time period. Everything within time period has been added to our tbr shelf.