The YA and Middle Grade Fiction Group discussion

Hey Everyone. I'm new to this group.

In another group we had a long (several pages) discussion about romance in MG books. So I'd love to ask questions similarly in this group.

I'd like to hear specifically about how others feel about things such as:

ACTION: characters jumping from planes, fighting bad guys, etc
CHARACTER COUNT: How many is too many
DRAMA: how much is too much. Does too much take away from the reading?
GENDER OF MC: With MG fiction leaning more toward girls, is it important to write boys?
GORE: Believe it or not I've read some pretty gory stuff in some MG books.
HEAD HOPPING: Is it important to stay with only one or two MCs?
PLOT SPEED: How fast does your story take off?
POINT OF VIEW: 3rd limited vs 1st person
ROMANCE: Crushes, holding hands, first kisses, BF/GF
WORD COUNT: Is there really a limit? Or is it more about telling a great story. Even omitting HARRY POTTER books like KEEPER OF THE LOST CITIES are 450+

Anyhoo, I can't wait to read the discussion.

With most of the things on YOUR List, I think it has to be what works for the story in question.

Length especially should be determined by how many words the story needs to make it feel complete, not how many words someone thinks it should need; I never worry about word counts until I'm done and figuring out which list price to use for selling my completed books.

However...

I'm getting a bit fed up of romance appearing in every single book. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, as long as things are kept age appropriate (no more than a kiss, a hug, or holding hands, in middle grade books, for example). It's just that almost every story seems to have a romance element these days, and it's getting annoying. Just once I'd like to read a book aimed at someone older than eight where nobody so much as considers another character a potential partner. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good romance. But it feels like everyone is falling in love, even while fighting for their lives in fantasy and adventure stories, and I wish more people would write romance-free stories. OK, "almost every book" is an exageration. But I think you get my point.

Also, head-hopping is annoying. If you're writing from a third person point of view, by all means tell us what can be observed about each character (though, please, make it clear who it is we're talking about). But head-hopping can get confusing if not done properly. If you have to do it, at least give us a chapter change and something to make it clear whose head we're in this chapter.

What good questions J.L! I to would like to know some answers :)

In my opinion, action in a book can really make it interesting and suspenseful, but when over used or used irrelevantly, it can ruin the story. I would say that more than five main characters is too many, but you can have up to ten supporting characters. I say this because developing too many characters can be confusing for readers. Drama is good in certain stories, but overuse or irrelevant usage can ruin it. The gender of the main character shoulld be based on the personality you envision. Feminine characters should be girls and more masculine traits should be given to boys. I disapprove of gore in middle grade. A few scenes can be entertaining, but too much is just plain gross. I can't really say much towards plot. The point of view should be the perspective which gives the reader the most entertainment and emotion. I think crushes are ok, but too much kissing a sexual behavior is not appropriate. I think a books length should be around 250 pages.

Most of the concepts were just food for discussion. It's always interesting to get perspectives, like Victoria's on Romance.

I think people write ROMANCE because its something that everyone has in common. It's a driving force that we all feel, even if we try to ignore it. Many of my strongest memories of school centered around moments when I was with, near, thinking about my crush.

I generally don't like romance based fiction though. It's rare, especially in MG style stories, that they will keep my attention for long. I don't read romance YA at all, and anything with an "adult" title will probably get a pass by me. I like life in PG-13. LOL

For me ACTION needs to be real and the characters need to be emotionally invested. Otherwise the point can get lost. However, a zip line scene is not action to me, unless threads of the zip line are unraveling.

I think too many CHARACTERS occurs when the story either starts to bog down or the author just gets lost. I do believe GAME OF THRONES (Okay one of my few R-rated things I follow) has too many characters.

DRAMA just needs to make sense. And "Dramatic Moments" should be used like exclamation points--sparingly.

WORD COUNT. Most agents I run into prefer around 40K, yet I see books with 100K counts being on the MG bestsellers lists. For me, it difficult to stay under 60K because I like to write epics, especially in MG. But in YA I write fewer words, which most people may think is odd. But I think that's because of another concept POV.

In YA, many books are 1st person which is very limiting when telling a story. I find that 60K is a good count because I can't jump into other scenes with characters. I don't like two 1st person POVs. I find them distracting.

In MG I prefer 3rd person. This way I can showcase the whole story and not miss anything. I also blame TV/Movies and Comic Books including Manga for warping my storytelling at the MG age range. LOL

I'm not a fan of GORE. I like to think of the kids in my books like unbreakable bean bags. I can throw them around all I want, but they will rarely bleed.

My first MG book is over 365 pages. LOL I don't think you'd be happy about that Madeline. Most of my betas, however, have wanted more pages.

I agree about the gore... It should be kept to a minimum in books for this agegroup.

ACTION is fun, but what I call "gratuitous ride scenes" are annoying. Like in the movies when the camera follows a character through a set that looks like a rollercoaster? Bad in the movies. Worse in a book.

CHARACTER COUNT: How close do you want the reader to be? The more characters, the more distance - and you'd better have some interesting scenes to keep me vested.

DRAMA has to be believable. I don't like "yeah right" moments that pull me out of the story. If someone's going to be dramatic, I'd better know the reason.

MC's GENDER depends on the story. I have one MG where the MC is a boy. I thought about changing him to a girl because the story is all about science. But then I realized that would mean that a supporting character (who plants the real solution in the MC) would have to be a man, and I really wanted the woman to have the answer (selfish that way). My other MGs work better with girl MCs.

GORE: I don't read it, and I don't write it. To each his own.

HEAD HOPPING: Just don't do it. If the reader can always follow the story even if the POV changes, then that's not head hopping... that's using a technique well.

PLOT SPEED: Hook me, and you can go as fast or slow as you want. But you gotta keep me hooked. I'm such a pantster I try to feel the pacing of a story, and let my CPs (some of which are diehard plotters) tell me when it's off.

POV: I'm teaching a class on this in November to 8th graders. Both types can work. I have an MG in 3rd person limited because I need to show things that the MC doesn't necessarily notice (but happens in her presence). I've got an MG in 1st person because he's writing in his Super Scientific Notebook (which we are reading). I have a YA sprouting that HAS to be in 1st person because it depends on that unreliable narrator.

ROMANCE seems to be more expected in YA than MG. I'm thinking of several MG books that have no romance in it at all. Yeah, it shows up eventually, but I really like series where it's not even a subplot for more than one book. but YA, yes, I think there's too much emphasis.

WORD COUNT: Yes, there is a limit. Younger MG 20K to 50K, and Older MG shouldn't be more than 100K. Seriously. So what do you do if you're books are too long? Dan Gutman cut it into two books. Honestly... the characters were on a trip from West Coast to East Coast USA, and made it only halfway across in the first book. Why do you think that is? Hmmm? (Hint: Both the first book and its sequel were around 50K)

Jen wrote: "I'm such a pantster I try to feel the pacing of a story, and let my CPs (some of which are diehard plotters) tell me when it's off."

Pantsers Unite! Yay! I'm a pantser too. I consider myself 80% pantser, 20% plotter. Nice to see a few out here when the wold loves plotters.

J. L. wrote: "Most of the concepts were just food for discussion. It's always interesting to get perspectives, like Victoria's on Romance.

I think people write ROMANCE because its something that everyone has in..."
I don't mind much about length as long as it is 200-500 pages. I am a hypocrit because my book is only 100, but I'm working on it :)

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for all the insight.

Madeline wrote: " ...don't mind much about length as long as it is 200-500 pages. I am a hypocrit because my book is only 100, but I'm working on it :)"

Maybe you "under-write" like me! Some of my author friends lament that they have 100K+ novels, and I'm looking at my 25K and whimpering because I'm out of story... or am I?

If this sounds like you, I suggest looking for plotholes. Is there enough world-building? Character development? Do the secondary characters feel like they all have their own stories (even though we don't know them)? And of course get a plotter for a Critique Partner.