The Gunroom discussion

I love the writings of Patrick OBrian.

Does anyone else here believe, as I do, that PO'B himself burned with desire for beautiful young men, and that the characters of Aubrey and Maturin reflect his fantasy ideal of the perfect relationship between men, even to the extent of having a spiritual love-child in the form of Sam Panda?

geez, please stop...! obviously you are reflecting your own fantasies.

Haven't you ever noticed that PO'B describes beautiful men and boys in an almost breathless manner? But when he describes a beautiful young woman there are a lot of "high heads" and "straight backs". It's as if he were describing a horse! lololol

Look, I'm not trying to defame the name of a great writer. I'm just trying to liven up a dead discussion group! :-)

Ok, maybe I'm over-reacting a bit but why must a 'livening up' need references to homosexuality? It reminds me of the discussions that erupted on the Lord of the Rings group a while back. Was that you too?

Not sure if you're serious or trolling, but I don't get that vibe at all from O'Brian.

As for descriptions of women, I'm reading Nutmeg now, and O'Brian is gleeful about the young Dyak woman with her tight skirt and her little jacket that was not intended to conceal her bosom. Then later while Jack and Stephen are dining with the governor and four Dutch ladies in Batavia, Stephen carnally admires the ladies and their rubenesque figures.

There is more talk of male beauty in the books because there is more of it, as Jack and Stephen move in primarily a male world.

So true...Jack is very obviously heterosexual as is Stephen considering both Sophia and Dianna. Steven, don't be an idiot.

Steven, you are a scrub!

Think of all his 'dwarfish or spotty or bald or ear-less' midshipmen...the Babbingtons and young 'tubular Pullings', all people whom he holds dear.

The one 'beautiful' midshipman I can recall exists only for the space of a couple of chapters before falling to his death from the rigging during a skylark....[I forget where/when]

Doug

Steven,

You sure got this conversation going again!

Ruth

"Does anyone else here believe, as I do, that PO'B himself burned with desire for beautiful young men..."

and

"Look, I'm not trying to defame the name of a great writer. I'm just trying to liven up a dead discussion group! :-) "

...do not sit easily side by side.

Ho ho, how glad I am I responded to a scurrilous remark in order to allow Ruth to post....

"You sure got this conversation going again!"

...and I thought this could be a troll-free zone.

Doug

Even if P O'B did 'burn with desire for beautiful young men,' that would do nothing to defame his name. I've read that he abandoned his first wife and their children. If we want to posthumously scold him for anything, perhaps it should be for that.

Ruth

Folks I don't happen to believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality and this is why I don't believe I have defamed or "scolded" PO'B.

Doug, a "scrub", really? That just hurts my feelings :-)

If any of you care to read the series a few times you will see that it is littered with beautiful men and boys ("Spotted Dick" Richardson, anyone? The pimply young midshipman who blossomed into the beautiful flag lieutenant greatly "admired" by his admiral?)

Steven,

I agree with you. My second comment about scolding wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I don't know what Mr. O'Brian's longings were in life, but he seems to have had an appreciation for dramatic scenery, whether it's geographical or human.

Ruth

Steven wrote: "Folks I don't happen to believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality and this is why I don't believe I have defamed or "scolded" PO'B.

Doug, a "scrub", really? That just hurts my feeli..."

He was admired by his Admiral, presumably posted aboard the flagship by the A's leverage, he was not aboard Jack's command...speaks more for the influence of the Naval Hierachy than Aubrey's arrival on station.
Remember, this was a time when the 'scientific' and 'gentlemanly' officer was in the ascendant after years of commanders being appointed purely because of their seamanship. The 'passed for gentleman' promotions that left many artisan officers on the beach "I couldn't have him in my gun-room, he used the word 'balcony' rather than the word 'balcone-ey'.

Britain was, and is still, divided on whether one uses the 'lavatory' or the 'toilet' or holds one's knife and fork like a writing instrument or, more properly, with the ends of the handles of each respective tool in the palm of one's hand.

As for the habit of slashing one's food into morsels with both only to abandon the knife and use the fork akin to a spoon, beyond the pale....[derivation?]

Practised in the New World, only, presumably?

Tut-tut...

Doug

Steven wrote: "Folks I don't happen to believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality and this is why I don't believe I have defamed or "scolded" PO'B.

Doug, a "scrub", really? That just hurts my feeli..."

He was admired by his Admiral, presumably posted aboard the flagship by the A's leverage, he was not aboard Jack's command...speaks more for the influence of the Naval Hierachy than Aubrey's arrival on station.
Remember, this was a time when the 'scientific' and 'gentlemanly' officer was in the ascendant after years of commanders being appointed purely because of their seamanship. The 'passed for gentleman' promotions that left many artisan officers on the beach "I couldn't have him in my gun-room, he used the word 'balcony' rather than the word 'balcone-ey'.

Britain was, and is still, divided on whether one uses the 'lavatory' or the 'toilet' or holds one's knife and fork like a writing instrument or, more properly, with the ends of the handles of each respective tool in the palm of one's hand.

As for the habit of slashing one's food into morsels with both only to abandon the knife and use the fork akin to a spoon, beyond the pale....[derivation?]

Practised in the New World, only, presumably?

Tut-tut...

Doug

Ruth wrote: "Even if P O'B did 'burn with desire for beautiful young men,' that would do nothing to defame his name. I've read that he abandoned his first wife and their children. If we want to posthumously sco..."
He abandoned his first wife to marry another woman and remained married to her for the rest of his life.
There is not the slightest indication in any of O'Brian's writing or actual life that indicates an attraction to males. What a really strange assertion without the slightest shred of evidence.
I recommend the biography "Patrick O'Brian" by Dean King and "A Sea of Words" also by King for those who need to know the meaning of many more items than the coaked sister blocks.

In order to clarify as far as possible what we are entitled to make of POB's early life, I take the liberty of quoting his son, Richard Russ on the subject of his father's relationships, and his attitude to the public perception of the man, a transcript from an interview he gave in 2003.

..."I got on much better with Mary [than his mother], his second wife. She was a fine person-good fun, pleasant, an excellent cook..."

and

"I believe that it is a total irrelevance for the public to know what sort of man my father was. The fact that he was a damn good writer should be enough."

This was shortly after archive papers were discovered that revealed that his mother, Elizabeth, was described as drunken, illiterate and immoral.

Between 1944 and 1949 divorce and custody proceedings in the Family Division of the High Courts were held in camera, and their revelation in 2003 [the time of release of the M&C film] horrified POB.

Elizabeth portrayed POB's relationship with Richard as [then still Patrick Russ] as
"..an obsessive authoritarian who bullied and beat him [Richard]regularly. For my part I do not remember anything from that time [he was 5 years old] that relates to their dispute."

On leaving the family, Patrick changed his name, by deed poll to 'O'Brian' and thereafter Richard was referred to as such at school.

In 1964, after National Service Richard married and having matured his opinions of his father reverted to his former surname.

In 2003, with the revelations within the archive documents and the making of 'Master and Commander' as a film he wrote "....He was a marvel at telling stories, and I have full respect for him in that way, but as a man, he was not respectable."


There, I hope this fleshes out the man a little, and may serve to restrain conjecture,

Your 'Aye

Doug

Hey folks, what do you say we mix it up some more:

I believe all great authors write much of themselves into their characters. Who they are, who they want to be, their secret selves. It's a big part of what makes them so great. "From great pain comes great art", as they say.

PO'B seems (to me) to have written much of himself into Stephen Maturin, as well as other characters in the series. Even their physical descriptions are similar!

It's fascinating to consider if the proclivity of Stephen to rescue small children is connected to the fact that PO'B abandoned two of his own children, one with spina-bifida. Is a tortured PO'B seeking redemption through Stephen? Is it a coincidence they are rescued in pairs (Sara & Emily, Kevin & Mona)?

I humbly offer this up to the group for discussion.

Steve

P.S.
To Doug, on Spotted-Dick Richardson:

"One of these beautiful young men, his flag-lieutenant, now stood by him on the poop, a young man who had begun life – naval life – as a reefer so horribly pimpled that he was known as Spotted Dick, but who with the clearing of his skin had suddenly blossomed into a seagoing Apollo: a sea-going Apollo perfectly unaware of his beauty however, attributing his position solely to his zeal and his perfectly genuine professional merits."

~The Reverse of the Medal, page 10 :-)

A really perceptive idea.

I have always thought of O'Brian as Maturin, the author photos on the dust jacket have been my image of Stephen.
The links between them of language, Intelligence work and personal privacy cemented that view.

Are the other traits that people perceive to be O'Brian's character?

Thank you for the thought.
Matt