The Baseball Book Club discussion

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awa...

Pick up to 10. If a name appears on 75% of ballots he's a hall of famer.

Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Mike Mussina
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Larry Walker
Don Mattingly
Sammy Sosa
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Gary Sheffield
Brian Giles
Nomar Garciaparra
Carlos Delgado
Darin Erstad
Tom Gordon
Jason Schmidt
Jarrod Washburn
Cliff Floyd
Kelvim Escobar
Jermaine Dye
Mark Loretta
Rich Aurilia
Troy Percival
Paul Byrd
Joe Crede
Tony Clark
BJ Ryan
Eddie Guardado
Braden Looper
David Weathers
Julian Tavarez
Alan Embree
Ron Villone

Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Carlos Delgado

Piazza
Biggio
Randy Johnson
Pedro
Bagwell
Trammell

Mike Linn

I'm going on stats and not banning because of steroids
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Lee Smith
Jeff Kent
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Tim Raines

I forgot Smoltz. You must like Lee Smith a lot Harold, you voted for him twice.
Mike Linn

admittedly it is very close between Bagwell and Lee Smith. If I weren't limited to 10, I'd vote for Trammel,and maybe even Martinez and Walker. Even Schillig gets plenty of attention

LOL=okay I'll put Tim Raines in

I don`t feel the urgency to get a crowded ballot cleaned out. I voted on 7 what I think are my iron clad votes. Then when the smoke clears, I`ll get the rest. I`m appalled that Biggio and Piazza aren`t in yet
Mike Linn

agreed

Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Randy Johnson
Mike Piazza
Edgar Martinez--on base alone.
Tim Raines
John Smoltz

You must really like Piazza David. You selected him twice. Not Pedro Martinez?

Harold wrote: "You must really like Piazza David. You selected him twice. Not Pedro Martinez?"

And you voted for Lee Smith twice. I know someone pointed it out already but you still haven't changed it.

Oh I screwed up. I thought I had edited it. Thanks

No Pedro ? He IS a HOFer
Mike Linn

Biggio, Piazza, Johnson, Pedro, Lee Smith, Bonds, Clemens. Latter two were HOF worthy even before the steroid years IMO.

Here is the article
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/ar...

Harold wrote: "Here is the article
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/ar..."
What does that have to do with this thread?

Hey Chris, most of the regulars here have made over 1,000 comments, and they spill over to EVERY thread. Does it really matter? We talk baseball everywhere!
Mike Linn

Thanks Mike. I appreciate that. Who is this rookie Chris anyway?

Lance wrote: "Biggio, Piazza, Johnson, Pedro, Lee Smith, Bonds, Clemens. Latter two were HOF worthy even before the steroid years IMO."

I definitely agree with the reasoning for Bonds and Clemens, Lance! and I have to go with Piazza, Johnson and Martinez as well.

every time we see Josh Tomlin pitch for the Indians, my man goes "hey look! it's the reincarnated Randy Johnson!" with all that hair lol

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I wouldn't say Clemons was a slam dunk for the Hall before steroids. While his winning percentage was great, his record was 196-111 for Boston. He was entering the next season at age 34 and was coming off four straight years with no more then 11 wins. Next thing you know he's in Toronto, gets a needle in the ass and wins two Cy Young awards while picking up speed on his fastball. Just my opinion of course but without the drugs he was on the way down and might have. Come up short in the wins column.

Go back and look at Juan Marichal at age 33, and then look at Clemens before the Toronto years. They look very similiar, which means if Marichal was a HOFer then, maybe Clemens was too.
Mike Linn

Let`s assume for a moment that Clemens was clean right up to Toronto, then the spike with PED`S makes the bad years in Boston look as if he was over the hill, and reinvented himself, so to speak
Mike Linn
Of course, we`ll never know for sure, it just looks that way on paper

I agree that he makes it too

Larsen-oops, wrong thread
Mike Linn

I think Tramm should have been in by now...

Biggio
Piazza
Randy Johnson
Trammell
Bagwell
Smoltz
Pedro

Isn't innocent until proven guilty a basic tenet of our Constitution? Am I the only one who believes in this? I also believe that, especially without real evidence to the contrary, people should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Lisa is correct , but the Mitchell report was pretty damning for MLB`S version of evidence. Bonds and Clemens may make it while we`re still alive, but not now. If Bagwell and Piazza aren`t in, Sheffield will be lumped with them. Piazza IS a HOFer. You left out Smoltz Kevin. And Pedro is also a HOFer. The Big unit should be in, but Lee Smith isn`t given much respect.
Mike Linn

Really, the only one I think shouldn't get in is Jose Conseco (does anyone know how he got custody of his daughter? Howessed

... messed up was his ex-wife? ) . The steroid era happened. Get over it.
I also think Pete Rose should get in.

So even by my own standard Canseco should go in as well, but god what a disgusting character that guy is

I can make the case for Rose, but only if they put his plaque in the janitors outhouse. Canseco wasn`t a HOFer if he was clean. Howessed is an interesting word, lots of people have long forgotten Steve Howe
Mike Linn

Rose is a different argument altogether because he and Joe Jackson are permanently banned from BASEBALL. In neither of their cases is it a question of did they cheat or do something that may or may not have been against the rules. It is clear that one may not gamble on baseball. Agree disagree or scream until you are blue...they are not eligible period. And since it's pretty clear Manfred won't take them off that list...not Rose and Jackson for at least a few more years.

Lisa I am with you on the innocent till proven guilty. Especially when there was no testing until 2003. But...this is a big but...it's not our justice system that elects players, it's a subjective group or writers. So this will happen. And if you really want to compare it to our justice system...this would be closer to a grand jury trial. Just ask if there's enough there to shame the player so he doesn't get elected.

At least in my lifetime, Jackson will NEVER be eligible, however, I`m really not as sure that Rose won`t at least will become eligible to be voted on. I know that Selig has been under pressure that the 25 year punishment for Rose, the player, has been more than enough. I even thought that as a farewell gesture, it would be addressed
Mike Linn
When do the playoffs for "our" Renegades start?

Lance wrote: "Lisa I am with you on the innocent till proven guilty. Especially when there was no testing until 2003. But...this is a big but...it's not our justice system that elects players, it's a subjectiv..."

I think that it`s interesting that the last group of users, were punished without failing a drug test, only on the Biogenesis so-called facts
Mike Linn

I'm of the view now after much reflection that it is better to allow in the guilty with the innocent just so we don't keep out guys like Biggio or others who are whispered to have used or associated with those who used.
History will record their misdeeds and stories will always tarnish the users but their accomplishments warrant them to be in.

I`m just not sure that 75% of voters in a particular year will agree with you
Mike Linn

Oh I have no doubt about that Mike. I'm not even sure how I would vote but I think it's the only way to go

Agreed
Mike Linn

Rule 5 of the Hall Of Fame reads as follows: 5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I suspect that most voters not voting for certain people are using the sportsmanship and integrity arguments. That is admittedly subjective and some in the HOF might not be there if they were being voted on in this day and age.

If we take out all the drunks, players of questionable talent, players who got in by their friends on the veterans committee, we would save tons on the cost of plaques
Mike Linn

Hell, Ty Cobb was the first inductee, and if what I've read about him is true, sportsmanship wasn't his strong suit. And Ruth was probably the hardest partyier of them all.

Michael wrote: "I can make the case for Rose, but only if they put his plaque in the janitors outhouse. Canseco wasn`t a HOFer if he was clean. Howessed is an interesting word, lots of people have long forgotten S..."

Funny fellow. I enter most of my posts from my phone, which leads to unintended typos. Especially when I dictate or a finger slips ...

You shouldn`t have told me that, it was very clever usage of words. I won`t tell a soul
Mike Linn

Biggio
Piazza
Bonds
McGriff
Bagwell
McGwire
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Trammell
Sheffield

I believe that at least half of your list won`t get in. To me, there are only 4 on the list that should; Biggio, Piazza, Randy and Pedro. I like Trammell, but I don`t think the voters do enough. You also left off Smoltz. McGriff and Sheffield are first timers, and I`m just not sure yet until I get a feel for what the voters are thinking
Mike Linn

PED or not, I cannot see Sheffield getting even close. He wasn't a dominant player at any one position, wasn't a consistent leader in a statistical category year after year. He rubs many teammates, fans And most importantly WRITERS the wrong way. Not a chance...

I personally think he will get lumped in with Bagwell and McGwire, but I`m not sure. Also McGriff just doesn`t jump off the page at me. Just my opinion. Not being sure, next year 5 guys could get in.
Mike Linn

Biggio
Piazza
Randy
Pedro
Smoltz

McGriff has good numbers but never really was identified with one team. I don't know if that really matters at all but I thought it would have helped if he put up those numbers with just one or two teams.