The Sword and Laser discussion

I wanted to kick off the discussion early, as I jumped on this one as soon as it was announced on the podcast and now its April 1, and I've completed it. Its a short read.

I have made it a habit not to read any reviews or comments about any of the S&L monthly picks, as I've been burned a few times with unannounced spoilers. I even try to stay from the book descriptions, as I figure that I'm going to read it anyways, so I don't need any bias going into it all. With this book club, I basically pick up something in one category or the other and start reading.

So with A Dance of Cloaks, I had no idea what to expect other than that it was fan picked, and it was in the fantasy category. Having finished it, here are my thoughts:

First, it was really detailed in its depictions of agonizing death. Similarly detailed in the infliction of pain, torture and fear of both. I found it to be gratuitous.

Second, once you hit the author's afterword, if you're reading the re-published version, the author admits to juggling a lot of balls at the same time. And I second his comment. There are so many disparate plot threads going on, that even when the attempt at connection is made at the end of the book, a number of them seem superfluous. The threads are loosely collected together into a messy ending that doesn't satisfy.

Third, for a novel that is about Thieves Guilds, there is a shocking and upsetting lack of thieving going on in here. Every one dimensional character in the book is doing one of the following:

1) torturing and/or killing someone
2) planning to torture and/or kill someone
3) not stealing anything

Fourth, and my biggest gripe. In the aforementioned afterword, the author indicates that this work was to be an origin story for his dark hero. So the thrust of the book is to chart the journey of Aaron, heir to Thren's dark empire, into the anti-hero Hern. (Not sure about the spelling. I used an audible credit for this one). The problem is that I didn't feel any empathy whatsoever for the transformation. No, he shouldn't have wanted to kill a praying child. And I'm glad he didn't. But that didn't make me want to root for him either. The tone of the book is so dark, and the characters in the book so detestable in motivation and action, even Aaron, that I didn't care what happened to a single one of them.

I'm sorry to be so negative about it. I feel like a bully a little, as this work started out as a self published thing, and I applaud the author for his dedication and subsequent success. But this one and I did not get along at all. The only reason it got a 2 star and not a 1, is that I reserve 1's for my Lemmed category.

If anyone else is done, what did you think?

I thought it just seemed uneven. Parts were really interesting and other parts seemed cliche. I was fascinated by the dynamic between Aaron and Thren. I was really quite disappointed that Hearn ended up being just another kind of killer. Kayla's characterization was fresh and fun. Alyssa's was cliche. The Faceless' status as a punishment was interesting, but the standard good god of light vs evil god of darkness was less interesting.

I enjoyed it in the end... but getting there was a little tough. I really didn't like how there would be new characters kinda brought in willy nilly to prove some point about how bad his dad was. It ended up being a lot of people you only saw a couple chapters... who usually ended up dead, but they weren't around long enough for you to care. Though I did think it was brilliant when the one lord just set up camp outside instead of paying the tax. And the thieves attacking the houses while the lords all ate and drank the night away was a cool idea-instead of some headlong uphill battle scene. I also thought the Faceless ladies were interesting, but I would have loved more from/about that paladin.

Agree- Disappointing. I kept thinking "So what your point"

I thought it was kind of a pulp fiction meets fantasy. The charaters are portrayed as being badass to get the gritty feel and to set up the next fight which sets up the one after that. Unfortunately, there just wasn't enough cool stuff framing the fights to make them engaging.

I did like the Faceless, and I kind wished more of the book would have focused there instead of the theft they were threatening to do throughout.

I mentioned in one of the other threads that I thought there was something off about the narrative. It felt contemporary or lackluster or something. Can't quite put my finger on it. I didn't know it started out self-published. Maybe that explains it. It wasn't awful writing like I've gotten in other self-published books, but it fell a little short.

Still, I did finish it, so I liked it enough to do that. I don't leave reviews, but if I was grading this, I'd give it 2 1/2 stars.

It read a lot like an action video game plot. Just about every named character who's point of view is explored even minimally, even sheltered and pampered types like Alyssa, Gerand, and Madelyn, seems to have some ability at hand-to-hand combat or magic. Unnamed mooks and victims die by the score. Killing seems to be the main way for characters to achieve their goals.

Speaking of magic, it's just assumed to be a thing wizards and priests do, it's not explained or justified in any way. The plot seems to be largely pretense to get all these badass characters to fight each other.

It reminded me a lot of books I liked about 20 years ago, and had I read this at that age, I probably would have loved it. I'd say it's even a few steps above most of those older books.

All in all, I'd say it was an entertaining diversion. Not every book has to explore lofty ideas or do in-depth character studies. But I doubt I'll read more in this setting.

I guess this is grimdark? This is not a particular strain of fantasy I usually read, so I don't really have the background to know if it is a good or bad example of its kind. However, I was entertained for a couple of days and I might check out the second book at some time. It's got too much going on, but it's obviously setting up the scene for future adventures.

There is a lot of stabbing. If you like stabbing, then you might enjoy this book.

I don't know if this counts as grimdark. Is it grimdark if the grittiness is implied but not particularly in your face? E.g., it'd be pretty terrible to live in this place, because you're either a disposable victim or mook, or a badass who will constantly have to keep an eye out for other badasses trying to kill you. But otherwise the violence is too over-the-top for me take too seriously. I don't find it substantially darker than, say, the Icewind Dale Trilogy, and no one calls those grimdark.

I read this book back in 2012. It was an awesome read. The fight scenes were beautifully illustrated and the second book is even better although the third book is not so inviting

There is something very familiar about this book. The characters and events are all a bit overused and stale. Nothing in this story felt fresh and new to me.

I know we are suppose to see the growth of Aaron to Hearn, but the characterization never came through very well. Its starts with him killing his brother without hesitation and then later on he is reluctant about killing and ends up being just another ruthless killer.

Kayla's character didn't make sense to me. She was a low level informant skilled with throwing knives but not very stealthy and then she becomes an adviser to the most dangerous man in the city and military leader despite having no experience or talent in that area.

It was a quick read but it just never really comes together.

Alexander wrote: "There is something very familiar about this book. The characters and events are all a bit overused and stale. Nothing in this story felt fresh and new to me."

Didn't start yet, but I guess I'm glad the Kindle file was on sale for $1.99!

Stab stab stab!
I gave it three stars (more like a two and a half). It wasn't so awful I had to send it windmilling across the room (like the Iron Druid). It just felt messy, lacking in coherence. After reading the authors note at the end of the book I wonder how much worse the first attempt was?

Willeyeoney wrote: "Stab stab stab!
I gave it three stars (more like a two and a half). It wasn't so awful I had to send it windmilling across the room (like the Iron Druid). It just felt messy, lacking in coherence. ..."

It's kinda mind boggling why he would write that, isn't it. It feels kind of like face-saving "don't judge me by this, I know I can do better" appeal. Kinda makes me wonder, if you know you can do better, why publish? Why not play with it until you have it just right?

In the author's note, he most of the problems with the book (too many plots thrown in just to see if he could juggle them, he didn't know the motivations of his own characters and thought he would find a way to justify them later, etc). And I thought, "at least he knows what to do differently in the future!"

Then he says all that applied to the first version, which is why he did this great revision. With all those problems gone. What!?!

I totally agree. I had to go back and listen to that part again. I thought he was talking about the version I'd just finished reading! lol

I've read it posted elsewhere but its worth repeating here. How bad was the first edition anyways?

I agree with the author that there was a lot going on that didn't need to be which lead to a number of loose ends and some plots which never really went anywhere (what became of Gerand's wife?). But I did care about some of the main characters and in all I really enjoyed the book, I suppose gratuitous violence in books is my thing!

Personally I found how my feelings for the characters changed as the book progressed enjoyable. Admittedly some, like Yoren, invoked negative feelings during his entire involvement. But Thren, for instance, I was rooting for in the beginning, but as he became more tyrannical (or as he was described as being more so) I eventually got to wishing someone would put a dagger through his eye, part of me hoped that it would be Kayla but I knew she was never going to see the end of the book (she deserved a better death though IMHO).

I wanted to read the next book anyway, but after reading authors note I'm intrigued to see how his style has changed as well.

I'm with Darren, he says a lot of things I said in my review.

Yes, the book had flaws. It probably won't win any awards or anything. But it was entertaining to read, even if it did get a little too muddled at the end. Oddly, the only time the violence bothered me was at the end, especially the torture scene.

I liked that there were a lot of female POVs in the book. Each of them seemed more developed (character-wise) than most of the male characters and their motives generally made sense (even when they were horrible people). I even liked how Alyssa grew through the course of the book. I wished Aaron/Haren had grown. He made a lot of stupid mistakes over and over.

When the next one's out, I'll probably give it a go.

Do any of the female characters get compelling storylines that aren't related to men? The 3 faceless are being punished for having sex, Alyssa has father and douchebag boyfriend problems, Kayla randomly makes a lot of decisions based on sacrificing for Aaron!Haern for some unknown reason, Veliana has her beauty marred (the horror!) during her attempted rape, even the little girl is there to move Aaron!Haern's storyline ahead.

And I got tired of hearing how disgusting fat people are. This fat lady really disliked this book.

Apart from that, the writing felt clunky - almost as if the author had made an outline describing the plot points he wanted to make and it was a connect the dots exercise. I never really bought most of the motivations for the characters choices, especially since he reasoned them out in internal dialogue rather than giving us a good look at who the character was and why they'd be motivated to make the decision they did.

terpkristin wrote: "When the next one's out, I'll probably give it a go."

Isn't it already out? A Dance of Blades

So it is. But it will still have to wait given my promise to read books this year from my "already bought and not read" [virtual] shelf. Unless it comes up as an audiobook for review or another S&L pick...

terpkristin wrote: "So it is. But it will still have to wait given my promise to read books this year from my "already bought and not read" [virtual] shelf. Unless it comes up as an audiobook for review or another S&L..."

I'm glad I'm not the only one then :) It would be nice to get my to-read list down into single figures.

This book might cause some problems for me though, the author already has 3 further books out with book 5 looking like it's going to turn up at the end of the year. There's also "Cloak and Spider" which appears to be a collection of back stories to Thren; then there's also the 4 book Paladin series!

All those books and me feeling stab happy after the first one

Darren wrote: "I agree with the author that there was a lot going on that didn't need to be which lead to a number of loose ends and some plots which never really went anywhere (what became of Gerand's wife?)."

I believe that Gerand's wife was the other noblewoman that Torgar freed along with Keenan's wife. Unless there was yet another lady that Thren would have been keeping as a hostage that I've lost track of. LOL.

But with all the wayward plotlines happening at the end, this was not the clearest connection.

As for the book as a whole...I too had a myriad of issues with the writing and story arc (perhaps I should say story line, since there really wasn't a true arc at all). But oddly, I thought the book was entertaining.

Speaking of annoyances...did anyone else notice that there were a few instances where the dialogue took on distinctly modern speech patterns despite 98% of the book seemed to adhere to common "medieval" speech. I don't know why, but that sort of thing kept jarring me completely out of the book.

I believe that Gerand's wife was the other noblewoman that Torgar freed along with Keenan's wife. Unless there was yet another lady that Thren would have been keeping as a hostage that I've lost track of. LOL.

That kind of proves the point in that I lost track of that part of the plot :)

I think this has to be the author's first piece. It had the classic problem of lack of identity that's exhibited by so many novice authors. I would like to give him a second try with book 2 of the series but I'm just not invested enough in any of the characters. You have to wonder, with that much killing going on all the time, would there be anyone left in a couple years? This has to be the book with one of the highest casualty rates of named characters that I cam across recently.

I also don't buy that Aaron or Haern or whoever suddenly had a change of heart after seeing a girl pray. The dialogue between the two kids later on where Haern begs the girl to teach him how to pray just wasn't congruous with a boy who killed his older brother when he was eight. And on top of that, the girl really didn't do much to deserve the idolization that Haern later seems to heap on her. I can foresee a very forced story line where she becomes a sort of focal point for his determination etc etc, which will inevitably lead to more killing and bloodshed. Until the end of the first book, I really don't find her very different from any other young girl who has just lost her father and she certainly isn't very absorbing.

Good points...good point...hmmm....wow, I really have difficulty finding good points and I'm normally generous in terms of reviews. Cool fight scenes? Yup, that's about it. There were a couple cool fight scenes.

Have to agree with H.T ^^^^
I was doing ok, and didn't mind the clichés and other problems, but I found Aaron's conversion poorly handled, and make his character lose all credibility to me, after that point this book was just one more of many to me, and I begun to notice all the other faults ended up hating the book, it felt like one of the poor written game books I've read but without the additional attachment of the game to keep it interesting for me

I thought it was 'ok.' I was intrigued by some of the female characters and Aaron/Hearn's development. Sometimes the story felt like a blockbuster action movie but with poor pacing. It becomes a bit of a mess at the end with so many plotlines rushed and left unanswered.

If Thren's plot succeeded, who would they steal from?

What a terrible read. The only reason I didn't lem this book was out of respect for the guy who contributed so much on kickstarter that he could make the pick. This book was all over the place. I hope his book is better!

I didn't bother reading the author's afterword because I was so glad to be done with the book!

2 stars.

I felt it was OK. It was hard to stay in; if I didn't read it for a couple days I forgot what was going on and with whom. It also took me almost the whole month to read, which is ridiculous for this short of a book. But I found that I couldn't read more than a half-hour at a time. I also think this is the first book that I literally could not fully read parts of because it disturbed me so much. The Wil scene? AHHhhh! I found my self covering my ears like I could block out the words that I was reading.
However, I did like Haern's character. I was rooting for him, and especially liked his torture and escape from the temple. I really felt for him and was hoping he would knock off his dad at the end (one could hope for at least one story line to tie up).
But, as a lot of others have said, there were too many elements in this short of a book for them each to get a decent amount of story. Hence, the parts of the book that had definite potential to be something intriguing(the temples and their knights, father/son rift)got left in the dust.

I found it hard to get behind Haern. I think the writer made a rookie mistake having him kill his brother in the first chapter, as that instantly makes him unlikable, and I agree that it doesn't gel with his actions in the rest of the book. I don't get why he gives some people mercy and kills others without thinking. I have come to the conclusion Haern is actually just a mad man because of what his father has put him through and that's why none of his actions make any sense.

I did like some of the female characters. I thought they were drawn better than in other fantasy novels I had read, although I admit I got confused between Kayla and Veliana when they were first introduced as there were not enough differences between them. I do love the idea of the Faceless women. I don't think they should have been killed off like that, the idea had so much potential.

I did enjoy the read overall, and if I find the time I will read the rest in the series.