Nero Wolfe discussion

So I've been wanting to read more of the Nero Wolfe books for a while now ( I've only read 'Champagne For One' sadly). I've been putting it off mostly because I like to discuss books whilst or after I read them and the big readers I know aren't very keen on mysteries and the rest mostly just read for brain candy. I was wondering if anyone thinks it would be an interesting idea to do a book club type deal where we decide on one of the Nero Wolfe books and we discuss it either as we go along or after we've finished reading it. Like I said, I've only read one of the books so I'm not positive that they would be good for this kind of thing so I'm merely asking your opinions. :D

I would certainly enjoy it. I've read them all, but when I re-read them I always find a new thing I enjoy.

I just joined the group and am happy to discuss any of the NW books anyone wants to discuss... my friends, family, and random strangers wil appreciate my finding a more appropriate outlet for my AG/Nw fixation. I listen to the audiobooks and Michael Prichard's voice has become part of the addiction. At first, I found his voice difficult to accept, but now it is the only voice possible for Archie and Wolfe. I own all but 4of the NW books--all 4 are short story collections--and am constantly prowling for those last remaining books in audio. Sadly, Audible has only 27 unabridged books available, but I have 10 on CD and 5 on cassette.

I recommend that if a systematic discussion is considered, then I suggest starting at the beginning with Fer Di Lance and moving through the corpus. I've found this manner of progressing through the books allows the reader to see the development of Stout's writing, Archie's development as a character within the society of the time, and a time capsule look at American society from 1934-1975. Stout didn't set out to do that, but watching Archie and Wolfe throughout the decades is like watching a part of America across the decades as well.

Sorry for going on, but there's always so much to say about the best detective pair in Americanliterature.

I just started reading them in order. I have probably read a handful (6-7) in previous years and I am a fan of the old radio drama (New Adventures of Nero Wolfe*). I finished League of Frightened Men (book 2) this morning but would be happy to wait and read them along with y'all if you wanted to do one every few weeks or 1/month.

* I've posted a few of the old radio shows here: https://radiorevival.blogspot.com/sea...

Oh! WOw. I just noticed the last posts were from 2014. Ha. So the above is not timely.

Ray wrote: "Oh! WOw. I just noticed the last posts were from 2014. Ha. So the above is not timely."

Doesn't hurt to re-activate interest... I've read and re-read the series a number of times. Ready any time to read again and discuss.

i am so interested in a Nero Wolfe book club/ discussion group! I who's up for it? I am Name the book

I'll do it.

let me think about the book

Happy to join the discussion. Am a longtime member of the "Wolfe List" an online discussion group which has gone through all the Wolfe books multiple times over the years, but discussions on the list have died out over the past year or two.

Years ago I found electronic copies of Too Many Cooks, Plot It Yourself, and The Final Deduction on the web, so if you want to start with one of those, I can share copies with interested parties - but I'm fine with starting anywhere.

Anybody interested in "Might as Well be Dead"?

One thing I noticed when reading the Wolfe books in order is that they are also a social history of the US from its post Prohibition start to its Watergate finish--okay, it was near the end of the series. We saw Wolfe with an early social conscience in Too Many Cooks and a reprise of one of its characters with 60s activism. We saw WWII and the economic growth that followed. We see the evolution of police procedures with true police brutality during an interrogation and the--now archaic and alien--laws regarding searches that allowed the police to search anywhere once inside the house for any reason... later replaced with what we now think of as normal. Plus more aspects of our social awareness with Archie's changing vocabulary regarding people of different races--although he never used the N word. The evolution of all these things is more obvious when seen in the series read in order.

The only things that didn't change were Wolfe's love of orchids, beer, and food... and Archie's love of dancing... he kept going to the Flamingo even when the style of dancing beginning in the 60s completely changed. Their ages also remained the same after Archie hit 30 and Wolfe remained in his 50s... wish my age did the same. ;P

Sternej wrote: "Anybody interested in "Might as Well be Dead"?"

OK.

OK by me, too.

Jeanie wrote: "One thing I noticed when reading the Wolfe books in order is that they are also a social history of the US from its post Prohibition start to its Watergate finish--okay, it was near the end of the ..."

I really think that Archie is supposed to be a bit less socially liberal than Wolfe. He seems to grow a bit over the years but in the beginning especially he is more of tough kid who is good at blending into social norms. Obviously so in Too Many Cooks and also Over my Dead Body. But in a right to die he has still retained some of it, although he has grown with the times.

As you say - he evolves but doesn't grow too old.

Strongly second The idea of doing them in order.

Fer De Lance is a great place to start - the opening line ("There was no reason why I shouldn't have been sent for the beer that day ...") is a classic, and we get to meet the main series characters at their inception. But Archie Goodwin was fairly rough around the edges in 1934, and Stout hadn't yet hit his stride, so it wouldn't be my recommendation as an introduction to the Nero Wolfe books for a neophyte.

As to Archie being more narrow minded than Wolfe, Archie is homegrown American (from Chillicothe, Ohio), who doesn't seem to have traveled much when the series begins except for having moved from Ohio to New York, while Wolfe is a well read European immigrant (from Montenegro) who has traveled around Europe and the Middle East, so their differences are in keeping with their backgrounds.

BTW- though I believe that Archie never did use the "N word" in the books, he certainly used a variety of other no longer acceptable racial epithets - calling Anna Fiore's neighbors "wops" in Fer De Lance and referring to the European chefs as "dagos" and the African American servants as "shines" in Too Many Cooks -- though in later editions of these books the now objectionable terms all got bowdlerized.

So which will it be, Fer De Lance or Might as Well be Dead? Or???

Still think one should start at the beginning.

I'd like to start at the beginning... if this is successful we will keep going and not have to decide each time which book to try next. Still, any Wolfe book is better than none so I won't be stubborn about it.

Alan wrote: "Fer De Lance is a great place to start - the opening line ("There was no reason why I shouldn't have been sent for the beer that day ...") is a classic, and we get to meet the main series character..."
Fer de Lance is good for me.
I had no idea that the books had been bowdlerized. I feel like it removes something real about Archie. He's not a perfect hero. He had that ignorance built into him, I assume deliberately, by Stout. And that ignorance is demonstrated with the racism.
If he did build it in deliberately, it's an interesting choice. Because as the bowdlerizing shows, it was not nearly so terrible a personality trait in the 30s. It was so common it was just associated with ignorance not with hate. After social change sweeps the country racism is ignorance associated with hate and I don't think Stout would have depicted Archie like that.

Sternej?

Sara,

I've been a Nero Wolf fan for a very long time now. About twenty years ago I started hunting for first edition copies of the "corpus" and now have a shelf full of firsts of all of the Nero Wolfe books that were published during Stout's lifetime. I'd be happy to point out original language that may have been altered once we get started.

As to Stout and racism, Too many Cooks was way ahead of the curve in 1937, and in 1964, as the US civil rights movement was gaining steam, Stout returned to addressing the subject (and brought back Paul Whipple, a college student working as a busboy in West Virginia in 1937, an assistant professor of Anthropology at Columbia in 1964) in A Right to Die, centered on an interracial couple. And Archie in 1964 was using "Negro" instead of using "coon," "shine" and "blackbird" as he did in 1937.

I think it would be very interesting to get original wording from those first-edition texts. And it makes me even more interested to start from the beginning. I listen to the audiobooks so likely have revised edition texts to work from.

Agree.

OK - Let's start from the beginning. Does anyone need time to get a copy of Fer De Lance?

How would people like to do this? Should one person start discussion of each chapter, or should we rotate starters chapter by chapter? Or is there another way anyone would recommend?

To get the ball rolling, here's the only passage I can find from chapter 1 of the first edition of FDL that seems likely to have been bowdlerized in more recent editions.

"Durkin went to the hall and came right back with a woman in front of him. She was little but not skinny, with black hair and eyes, and wop all over, but not the shawl kind." (page 8)

Yes, more recent editions simply substitute "Italian." Interestingly, "wop" does still appear in LEAGUE.

I'm going to guess that it's a personal decision by whatever editor is working on the current version.
Philosophical decision - whether it is better to represent the work as it was written or to present the work as it was intended without offense.
I'm pretty pro- politically correct - but I think I come down on the side of present it as it was written. Context / Intention are part of reading.

Alan wrote: "OK - Let's start from the beginning. Does anyone need time to get a copy of Fer De Lance?

How would people like to do this? Should one person start discussion of each chapter, or should we rotate..."

I think a good place to start is exploring how Stout introduces us to the house and the characters. It's our very first meeting. And Stout, a genius at creating character, immediately makes Archie - both a lackey - the guy who gets sent out for beer and shoe polish but obviously a character of self will and strength. Wolf is eccentric and we already see his flaws - his struggle with the beer. Durkin is slow but has a specific talent. Fritz is barely sketched.

But we get a reasonable understanding of the household and already are clued into some of it's routine.

I could probably write a paper on that first chapter. I love it.

Go right ahead.

Perhaps we need a separate topic headed by the title of the book we are discussing? If we keep going beyond the first book it could save confusion.

And I'd definitely read the paper written on the first chapter! ;)

I think you are right - the books should be separated.
Alan - do you want to create it since you are instigator of our newborn book club, or is this something I have to do because I started this board?
I'm afraid I really don't know that much about the technicalities here. I will look into it.

Actually Ray, Jeanie and Sternej beat me to it, as far as reopening discussion here after a few years of hiatus. But I'm happy to participate, even (in spite of being a goodreads noobie) to the extent of researching board technicalities if needed. Just let me know.

OK Everyone - I created the new topic for the book. Let's move!

I just joined and am probably in the wrong topic.
I first met NW via the TV adaptations on A&E. Once I found the books, I never left the Brownstone.
Currently re-reading The Red Box.

Hi Starfish - Welcome to the forum. The Red Box is great. We get a look at the way Archie manipulates Wolf. Also Wolf goes out!

Hi Sara and thank you for the welcome. I love how Wolfe is made to go out. Never underestimate the lure of the orchids and the recognition from fellow collectors. (Only the right kind, of course. Never those who would split bulbs!)