Fantasy Book Club discussion

Discuss The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison here.

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(view spoiler)[Happy Reading :) (hide spoiler)]

Good Book. Looking forward to some good discussions!

Up to chapter 12. I'm picking up on comments made in the "no spoiler" thread:

Illusode said: The names, which I liked initially, are overwhelming me with the similarity and sheer number. I've just zipped past the 33% mark.

Joseph said: FWIW, there's an appendix at the back that goes into some of the naming conventions.

While I appreciate creative world building in fantasy, I'm also finding the names (people, places things) to be a distraction...pulling me out of the story to look up who/what/where in the appendix/glossary. By the way, the appendix is 14 pages long and not always easy to use. I had forgotten how Arbelan fit into the family dynamic, so went to look her up in the appendix....but she's not under the "A" section. Had to flip through the list until I came to her listed under her surname (which I had forgotten) as" "Drazharan, Arbelan".

If I'm understanding the characters so far, there are (mainly) goblins and elves. Arbelan was elfish, and described as: "in her mid-sixties, a tall, proud woman still, with brilliant blue eyes". Here's my question...I'm using Lord of the Rings for reference for the age of elves, and it seems to me that 64 is quite young. The author in "Goblin" gives no reference for aging, so I'm not sure if Arbelan is considered "elderly" in her world. How old is "old"?

Side note: Given the intricately constructed world, I was amused and relieved when the Emperor's breakfast was chamomile tea and buttered crumpet.

I'm enjoying the story, but it's a chore rather than a pleasure to read.

Given that the age of majority is -- hmmm, I forget exactly, but about twenty -- and that all grandparents appear to be regarded as fairly old, I think what we have is human beings with pointy ears (and what ears!) and a normal aging pattern.

What do people think of the steampunk elements?

Yes, it's mostly about the politics rather than technology, but it's showing some of the effects. In speed transport and ease of messages. Not to mention (view spoiler)[the reveal of the sabotage would be rather different, and the bridge building decision at the end. (hide spoiler)]


(view spoiler)[Though even the first time I read the last scenes, I note even then that the abstaining was to give Maia the chance to cast the deciding vote. (hide spoiler)]

Mary wrote: "What do people think of the steampunk elements?

Yes, it's mostly about the politics rather than technology, but it's showing some of the effects. In speed transport and ease of messages. Not to m..."

I'd never seen anyone refer to the book as steampunk before I read it, but there's definitely that feeling to the technology. I like the fact that Addison has so carefully thought about how the specific level of technology affects the story, particularly in the speed with which messages can be passed on. It's completely different to your average epic fantasy, where it can take weeks for news to move around.

As for the names, I found I mostly remembered the first names, but struggled with family names and how everyone was related. I'd agree with how frustrating the glossary is, too, for that very reason! By the midpoint of the book, I was starting to feel that the naming system had gone beyond intricate world-building - because it's clearly got its own, quite clever internal logic - and was getting a bit annoying.

Amy wrote: "starting to feel that the naming system had gone beyond intricate world-building - because it's clearly got its own, quite clever internal logic - and was getting a bit annoying. "

I got totally turned around during some discussion of Maia's marrying options, when 3 or 4 people had the same name: Osmin, which turned out to be a title. However, once the appendix cleared up all the naming conventions regarding gender, families, etc... I enjoyed them as a subtle indication of this being another culture and language. Also, since the setting is a court with strict rules on propriety and formality, people are rarely called or thought of by their personal names; that level of distance reinforced Maia's estrangement.

Mary wrote: "What do people think of the steampunk elements?

Yes, it's mostly about the politics rather than technology, but it's showing some of the effects. In speed transport and ease of messages. Not to m..."

I really like it. It's a clever mix and it brings in problems that are solved with technology rather than magic.

There is certainly enough left unsaid to have the story continue on in a second book. Would like to have seen the whisper of steampunk developed more fully; and some deeper intrigue and a greater sense of adventure would have helped. This unfolded as if introducing readers to a new world/characters in preparation for further exploits.

I think more adventure would have changed the story entirely. It was a story about court politics and Maia's growing into the role there.

And growing into his new role is an adventure, just not portrayed with any real zeal.

I'm struggling with the aspects others have mentioned, though I'm managing mostly by only trying to remember key people and letting some of the rest slide a little.

Must admit though, now more than halfway through, there's just not enough happening for my taste. There are some interesting pieces, but I feel it's somewhat lacking a plot. I don't mind longer intros and slowish pacing, but this is pushing it a bit. Hopefully the last 40% picks up, especially the Wisdom of Cohoro thread.

With all the comings and goings, would anyone else have liked a map of the Elflands territory included in the book, to help keep the land areas and various overlords straight?

I read this back in the spring, but for myself, I really, really liked it. I don't know if it's what I was expecting, but it was fascinating to see everything from Maia's very inexperienced perspective (I wonder if some of the confusion regarding names, places, etc., was a deliberate effort to create the same effect in the reader?)

What really sold me, though, was Maia himself, mostly because it was so nice to read a book about someone who succeeded by being so fundamentally decent -- a breath of fresh air after all of the grimdark antiheroes.

I like the clever political machinations and the growth of Maia. I really appreciate how Addison uses Csevet and the others to tell Maia (& the reader) the deeper meaning of the events. It's plausible and an excellent device.

Monica wrote: "With all the comings and goings, would anyone else have liked a map of the Elflands territory included in the book, to help keep the land areas and various overlords straight?"

Especially when geographical questions are central to the story and the political outcomes, right?

Joseph wrote: "I read this back in the spring, but for myself, I really, really liked it. I don't know if it's what I was expecting, but it was fascinating to see everything from Maia's very inexperienced perspec..."

I completely agree about Maia. I also like to think that the average reader thrust into his position would act the same way i.e. trying to make friends with those technically below his station (which everyone else frowns on), making him a very easy character to like.

And yes, I would have loved a map! I followed the story fine without one, but out of curiosity more than anything, I'd have liked to have known where everything was!

Joseph wrote: "(I wonder if some of the confusion regarding names, places, etc., was a deliberate effort to create the same effect in the reader?)..."

Insightful and interesting observation, Joseph. Not sure how deliberate it was, but I certainly got a headache from the secondhand smoke. ;-)

Anyone else curious about the signet maker character? Didn't he say he was very old and will probably make the signet for Maia's grandchildren? That doesn't fit with either the goblin or elf lifespan.

BTW...found a map of the Elflands on the author's website:

http://www.katherineaddison.com/img/g...

Monica wrote: "Anyone else curious about the signet maker character? Didn't he say he was very old and will probably make the signet for Maia's grandchildren? That doesn't fit with either the goblin or elf lifespan."

Very curious! In fact, it indicates that the world has considerably more depth than apparent in this tale.
Actually various aspects of the world building intrigue me, but most of all the elf-goblin race relations, for clearly elves and goblins are the same species (they interbreed successfully) and their distinction is somewhat contrived. An interested observer from another species may in fact not perceive who is goblin and who is elf. This is consistent with the modern biologist view that race isn't a valid classification, because there is more genetic variation within the group (of elves for example) than between the groups (elves and goblins). I don't want to reach, but if the author's intention is to reflect on the insanity of human race relations, I applaud fervently. It's as if the absolutism of Tolkien's orcs (as corrupted elves bred by Morgoth) is being held up for reanalysis, which I view as healthy progress.
On the other hand, Addison's world and Tolkien's world have nothing else in common, and the author's have distinct roots (Ms. Monette is from Tennessee while Tolkien is from South Africa) and different centuries.

Monica wrote: "Anyone else curious about the signet maker character? Didn't he say he was very old and will probably make the signet for Maia's grandchildren? That doesn't fit with either the goblin or elf lifespan."

Ooh, how intriguing! I have to admit, I missed that point entirely, but, as Michael says, it does suggest there's more depth to the world and its people than is immediately apparent.

And thank you for the map! It matches up quite nicely with what I'd imagined, so the text must do a reasonable job of describing where everything is.

You make some very good points, Michael. I think the author did a good job with subtleties in physical descriptions (a shade lighter in skin tone, long straight fingers vs Maia's...ears, etc.) as well as offering some class distinction (some through lifestyle or mannerism). Maia's noted awareness of the differences mirrored his willingness to rule for all people, rather than by class.

My main frustration with the book was that while it was so rich in many creative aspects, it too often skimmed the surface, failing to delve into enough depth to pull me further into the story. If the author chose to leave readers "wondering or speculating", I'm fine with that, but not "scratching my head to make sense of something".

I hope that at some point the author will continue using the imaginative world built here for further adventures. She's built such an intriguing world, it would be nice to see her continue on with it; with or without the main characters in Goblin Emperor. From her website:

Will there be a sequel to The Goblin Emperor?

No. Much like with the Doctrine of Labyrinths, that story is finished. It's possible I will write more books set in that world, and possibly even with some of the same characters, but there will be no direct sequel.

Monica wrote: "You make some very good points, Michael. I think the author did a good job with subtleties in physical descriptions (a shade lighter in skin tone, long straight fingers vs Maia's...ears, etc.) as w..."

I have a feeling I've seen something more concrete about the author writing another book in the same world i.e. a Tweet saying that's what she was working on... But I only have a vague memory of it, so don't quote me on that! I might be getting mixed up with someone else!

Amy wrote: "I have a feeling I've seen something more concrete about the author writing another book in the same world i.e. a Tweet..."

Seems a shame not to use the imaginative world she spent so much time creating. Lots there to draw from that would be interesting...signet maker, clock makers.

Came across an interesting article written by the author in which she states:

The Untheileneise Court, the seat of the Elvish government, is–pretty obviously–based on Versailles and the court of Louis XIV.

Pretty obviously to her, but I did not pick up on that when I read the book. Here's the entire article:

http://bibliosanctum.com/2014/05/19/g...

hmmmm..... Finished.

(view spoiler)[I loved the build up, but the climax was unsatisfying. There just wasn't enough tension to be released, so I'm left wanting. It's just strange that there are such clear judgments to be made, rather than making things harder for Maia. He doesn't even need to decide innocence or guilt - it's mostly done for him. I was, however, impressed with his prison interviews with the bombers, and the philosophical side of the saboteur (and how it benefited Maia and all the subsequent conflicts it engendered in his psyche) was interesting. In the end, I just never saw enough threat to his survival, and, yes, I get that the point is that he is supposedly protected.

On the positive side, I very much enjoyed the world building, and I'm confident the author will return to tell other stories here.

This is a bit of a tweener for me. The world building is a 4 but the story is a 3, characters somewhere in the middle. I'd give it a high 3.

(hide spoiler)]

I found the inheritance patterns interesting. At first I thought underage heirs were excluded, then that they were excluded until there were no overage ones, but then it mentioned that if Idra had been of age, there might have been a revolt. . . .

I think it follows the rule that children do not represent their parents -- that is, they can't inherit the right to inherit. So all of his sons would be preferred over any of his grandsons. The rule sort of in play that allowed King John to be crowned over his nephew Arthur -- of course that fracas quickly led to formalizing the rules -- such that Arthur would have been the rightful heir.

I am 25% done & am not loving it yet. I read from some of you that it picks up so hoping it will!

Is anyone tired of hearing him refer to my as "our" and I as "we?" It was fine at first but now it's just confusing & a little annoying.

I rather enjoyed the formal pronouns, with the second person ones clarifying the matter.

Though one wonders why they don't use "they" as the third person formal. 0:)

Greta wrote: "I am 25% done & am not loving it yet. I read from some of you that it picks up so hoping it will!

Is anyone tired of hearing him refer to my as "our" and I as "we?" It was fine at first but now i..."

Actually I liked it a lot, but I have a decidedly unconventional love of philology. Language structure often derives from cultural ideas (the reverse can also be true) and the imperial we-ness seems a clever distinction of the personal I-ness when you are speaking about the role rather than the self.

Hmm, maybe it will grow on me then :-) I think the pronouns combined with all the characters and long names that I'm having difficulty pronouncing might be what's bothering me. I will be patient!! The story itself is great so far!

Greta wrote: " I think the pronouns combined with all the characters and long names that I'm having difficulty pronouncing might be what's bothering me."

The characters' use of pronouns didn't bother me as much as the author constantly pointing out that one form was used over another.

Monica wrote: "The characters' use of pronouns didn't bother me as much as the author constantly pointing out that one form was used over another."

Ugh, yeah. Maia being inexperienced in courtly matters was one thing; but he should be utterly familiar with proper usage of his native tongue. Guess you could write off the constant reminders as continued evidence of Maia's complete isolation at a backwater shack. Buuuuut, he pointedly mentions the rigorous education in manners that he received from his hated cousin.

I finished last night and was having a hard time with my rating. I loved the rich world she created but I do feel there could have been a little more action...(view spoiler)[the 2 assassination attempts seemed very sloppy and unrealistic to me.

I thought Maia's development over the course of the novel was great, loved the unique world and did enjoy all the court intrigue. (hide spoiler)]

Greta, when (view spoiler)[ Maia was abducted, I thought, "Now we'll see some action." ...a bit of a letdown. (hide spoiler)]. As for reviewing this book, I actually divided mine into two parts....one for the storyline and one for the world building and delivery/enjoyment.

@Monica - I was the same way you were - (view spoiler)[ Thought the abduction was going to be the start of some real tension in the book...but it wasn't, due to being over in a blink of an eye (hide spoiler)].

Yes, not much happens in this book. But I think it's real strength is in the character Maia. I thought he was very empathetic and I was "rooting" for him throughout the book. I would have preferred more tension in the book - but overall I enjoyed the read.

I didn't really get into it until Maia did a thing and made me love him :) (view spoiler)[he took some time to think about why he really wanted to investigate the ships' destruction before explaining to his Witness for the Dead (hide spoiler)] He was just so earnest and sympathetic and good intentioned and, gosh, willing to ask for help! Yeah, it comes across much like 'country bumpkin visits the big city', yet his manner elicits sincere responses from most of the people he talks to; their ability to rapidly share his level of honesty and intention showed that this was not about naivety vs worldliness. The lack of jadedness was just really welcome to me after what I've been reading lately.

ANYWAY, the real differences, culture shock moments were my favorites -- such as between the goblins and elves. I'm kinda hoping that another novel in this world is about Maia's aunt the pirate. While Maia's POV was hardly an exhaustive showing of elvish life/history/ideology, I'm ready to see more of the other side of this world

I also have found the first part of this book to be a chore and unsatisfying. Hopefully, I can finish it in time to get started on the book for next month :).

Scott, I only finished the book because it was a group read. Had I picked it up on my own, I would have tossed it in the abandoned book file after 75-100 pages. I also thought it was a bit of a chore, but in the end, I'm glad I finished it.

Rated it a 3.5 Stars, really was better than a 3 but not quite a 4. So, I had to give it a 3. This book had so much potential. The court intrigue was very palatable and the politics were very interesting and absorbing. I actually really loved the plot and depth of characters. But the names, oh my gosh, the names. They were so freaking complicated and confusing. This is the only reason I didn’t give the book a higher score. Another issue I have with the book is the main character, Maia Drazhar. Maia becomes Emperor by accident and his separation from the court actually helps him become a great leader, but he is a tad wimpy at times. Yes, he is hardly more than a child but with his back ground you would think he would be a stronger person emotionally. With that being said, one cannot help but root for the boy. When everything seems to go the right way, one wants to cheer. All in all this was a really good tale and would recommend it to anyone who likes to read Political Fantasies.

Nicely said, Tnkw01!

Yes, I agree!

Thanks Monica and Greta.

I agree too.

Thanks Sam

Read this a while back. I loved the world but it was too much of a "safe" story for my tastes. I guess it was more of a slice if life story. I felt the exact same way reading the Long Way to a Short, Angry Planet.

I can see how some people would really enjoy that though.

Finally made it through this book. I almost gave up at the beginning but reading the comments here encouraged me to continue on. I am glad I read it as I enjoyed the story and liked Maia but I agree that the names were a challenge to get through. At the end I found the short chapter about the naming conventions and titles I really wish this had been at the beginning of the book. I think the names wouldn't have been such a struggle to begin with if I had understood that these were titles. But, I did like the story and would check out future books by this author.