Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

I'm attempting to sort out our group read for the new year. Bear with me folks.

I see the word "celtic" in the title...
Will be giving that a miss I think...I get a bit ranty when folk use it in relation to magic as it's almost meaningless. Something vaguely Welsh=Celtic...slightly Irish=Celtic...granny's cousin's uncle's friend's workmate came from Edinburgh=Celtic.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "granny's cousin's uncle's friend's workmate came from Edinburgh=Celtic. " And auntie June! I'm not opposed to a bit of rantiness, but as you will. Do feel free to post suggestions for the group reads eh.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "I see the word "celtic" in the title...
Will be giving that a miss I think...I get a bit ranty when folk use it in relation to magic as it's almost meaningless. Something vaguely Welsh=Celtic...sli..."

Oh, but this one is fun: people exploring the Welsh myths on the Orcadian mainland (on which trees mysteriously appear). :D

Becoming The Enchanter

I spied this book on a shelf at my local library. I thumbed through it checked it out and read it.

At first I wanted to keep this title to myself feeling I had stumbled onto some secret...

I read the sample on Amazon and ended up ordering this one :)

Slightly worried about that 'At first' in Joseph's post though...

A question - how does the statement This is a true story affect your reading/enjoyment of a book? There's no doubt that it has the potential to double or treble its power, but if it appears then for me, the way a book is written (as well as the content) can prompt continual cross-examination throughout.

This one is well-written and even compelling, but somehow I can't turn off my inner interrogator.

I haven't read this, so my reply is a general one. For me, even if the story is true, it is still shaped and influenced by the writer. This is the literary version of observation bias in science, or of different eye witness versions of a crime. Every writer brings their experiences to the page. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's one person's view of a true story. Would you say this is a memoir, then?

The blurb calls it a 'dazzling autobiographical account' and says it's 'as gripping as fiction yet firmly rooted in fact'. For me, it reads like very clever fiction - not because of the writing and the evocative descriptions but because the structure is such that things happen or turn up just when they're needed to grab and hold the reader's attention and move the story on. It's very page-turny, but life's not like that - even if magic is involved. It's hard to put down, in spite of some niggles...

Ancestral wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "I see the word "celtic" in the title...
Will be giving that a miss I think...I get a bit ranty when folk use it in relation to magic as it's almost meaningless. Something vag..."

Re. the 'Celtic' niggle, the author speaks of her knowledge of Britain's 'secret tradition' and during a lecture dismisses witchcraft as '...made up by Gerald Gardner in the fifties.' I've no problem with that, although some would say that there's no unbroken word-of-mouth British tradition either.

Ancestral, it's interesting that you say this is 'fun'. There are things that worry me here...

Nell wrote: "Re. the 'Celtic' niggle, the author speaks of her knowledge of Britain's 'secret tradition' and during a lecture dismisses witchcraft as '...made up by Gerald Gardner in the fifties.' I've no problem with that, although some would say that there's no unbroken word-of-mouth British tradition either..."

Caveat: I am not reading this and merely following the discussion.

Folks, I pretty much nailed my colours to the mast on other threads on this: Witchcraft is modern and there is no authentic unbroken tradition. OK...admittedly that all depends on definitions of "witchcraft"; "authentic"; "unbroken"; and "tradition".

The idea of an unbroken word-of-mouth tradition over any period of time bearing any resemblance to the initial tradition is...well...unlikely (to be charitable).

Nell wrote: "A question - how does the statement This is a true story affect your reading/enjoyment of a book? There's no doubt that it has the potential to double or treble its power, but if it appears then fo..."

It can be a very useful literary device to claim a work is a "true story"...
Though I prefer the "found document" approach to claims of truth...a particular favourite is: The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner
In a sense though, the actual "truth" of a text is given by the reader...whether events actually happened as claimed can be entirely secondary.
However, when a text claims to be a truth to the exclusion of other points of view I'd be taking it with a large pinch of salt.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Nell wrote: "A question - how does the statement This is a true story affect your reading/enjoyment of a book? There's no doubt that it has the potential to double or treble its power, but if it ap..."

You make a good point for me, Nell, albeit outside the discussion of the book itself. Not only is a book influenced by the "observation bias" of the writer, it's also influenced by that same bias in the reader. Hmm.

Sara, I can't claim that insight - it was Old-Barbarossa who wrote: In a sense though, the actual "truth" of a text is given by the reader...whether events actually happened as claimed can be entirely secondary. I think I do agree though. Maybe it's what happens when one's reading is mostly non-fiction - I open a book and a few pages in the old critical eye switches on.

OB wrote: The idea of an unbroken word-of-mouth tradition over any period of time bearing any resemblance to the initial tradition is...well...unlikely (to be charitable).

Old-Barbarossa, thanks for confirming my understanding of 'the British Tradition' (as the author calls it). She's so firm in her belief that it's authentic, that I was beginning to doubt all the serious studies.

I've finished the book now, but thought about it a lot yesterday. There's a sentence at the end of the blurb (so I'm not giving anything away):

- hidden within these pages - are clues and riddles that other seekers may wish to follow on the path.

Hmmm, I thought, (as you do). Then later, walking the whiplington, an answer arrived that seemed to solve the problem I have with the truth in this particular true story. It may be over simplistic, it may well be wrong, but I'm not so bothered by the book any more.

Will maybe post my idea later (hidden by spoiler tags).

Here goes, but first I need to say that the many dreams and states of altered consciousness in the book weren't what I was concerned about when thinking about the truth or otherwise of the story.

Please don't read the spoiler unless you've already read the book or have no intention of doing so. It really will spoil the story, which I actually enjoyed in spite of the niggles.

(view spoiler)[The title of the book is Becoming the Enchanter and the aim of the narrator/author is to find out how something can come from nothing. The story of Arianrhod, the virgin who gives birth to the magical child, is used as the guide for the magical investigations of the characters in the book, who identify the main players in the myth and symbolically act out their parts.

But who is the Enchanter of the title? Surely it must be Gwyddion who, as a reviewer on Amazon pointed out, was a trickster. So, becoming the Enchanter is also in a sense becoming the trickster.

If this is true, and the one who plays Gwyddion's part becomes the Enchanter who imparts the answer to the riddle, then this need not be a true story, in spite of the publishing blurb and the author's say so. And the lines very close to the end of the story that have the potential to annoy many readers are simply the final trick of one who has become the trickster.

We know the secret but cannot tell it.
A new riddle is the only way.
This book is the new riddle.

How can something come from nothing? Imagination...?
(hide spoiler)]

But of course, I could be wrong...

Have I killed this thread? :(

Nell wrote: "Have I killed this thread? :("

Ha!!!
Thought that was my job?

oooh a new book to read!

I shouldn't think so Nell. It's great to have you posting again.

Ahh, thank you Aaron... :)

Nell wrote: "Here goes, but first I need to say that the many dreams and states of altered consciousness in the book weren't what I was concerned about when thinking about the truth or otherwise of the story.

..."

How could something come from nothing?
Question could only be answered from first hand experience.

This is the answer I came away from the book with.


(see if this will kill the thread... I if I succeed it will be on the shoulders of others before me!)

I do so dislike killing threads, but seem to do it fairly often...!

Joseph, I think you've come to a strong conclusion. It's more obvious than mine and (rather annoyed by the ending) I had to find another. The author did seem to be telling readers to go form their own covens and act out the story throughout the book, but who the heck is going to do that? So in the end it seemed to me a cop-out - she practically promised the answer and then indicated one riddled with danger that few (if any) would or could begin or follow through, although a certain sort of seeker lacking knowledge might just take this on - the results could be baaaaad.....

Bet that's really killed the thread...:(

Nell wrote: "I do so dislike killing threads, but seem to do it fairly often...!"

I have the same feeling that I tend to kill the threads. It's very sad. I haven't read the book, but I feel what you're saying.

I was taken by the process


I may have been least interested in the specific question.

More interested how, who, and where this was taking place.



(something from nothing happens in quantum physics)

Aaron wrote: "Nell wrote: "I do so dislike killing threads, but seem to do it fairly often...!"

I have the same feeling that I tend to kill the threads. It's very sad. I haven't read the book, but I feel what y..."

It stops me posting sometimes Aaron, I have this feeling that I'm too critical...

Joseph (Millennium Man) wrote: "I was taken by the process


I may have been least interested in the specific question.

More interested how, who, and where this was taking place.



(something from nothing happens in quantum p..."

The process was interesting, although sorting out what was taking place in the material world as opposed to the experiential world of the coven members was tricky sometimes. I wondered too if those experiences were the same for them all, but the author didn't enlarge on that aspect.

I haven't explored quantum physics, but never say never... :D