Victorians! discussion

Welcome to our second December group read! In this thread we will be discussing the book up to and including Chapter 7 (“The Stapletons of Merripit House”) so please avoid plot spoilers beyond this point.

The Holmes stories in general have a Gothic feel to them, and none more so than The Hound. The Gothic, throughout the Victorian period, had moved away from mediaeval castles and foreign settings to the heart of the contemporary home – a somewhat more terrifying proposition – evolving into the Sensation Novels such as those by Wilkie Collins.
In some ways, Conan Doyle returns to a “purer” Gothic (the desolate, isolated location, an old manuscript, a family curse and a strong sense that the supernatural is at work) but combines it with modernity and progress , a good example being Watson’s description of the Hall as he views it for the first time:

“ A few minutes later we had reached the lodgegates, a maze of fantastic tracery in wrought iron, with weather-bitten pillars on either side, blotched with lichens, and summounted by the boars' heads of the Baskervilles. The lodge was a ruin of black granite and bared ribs of rafters, but facing it was a new building, half constructed, the first fruit of Sir Charles's South African gold.).

A theme to look out for throughout the novel is the tug-of-war between superstition and science. Conan Doyle himself embodied this apparent contradiction; he was a medical man, but also a believer in Spiritualism. I will set up a separate thread in the “Authors” folder so those who are interested can discuss this further.

I’m going to refer to the author as CD from now on – you’re welcome to become my partners in laziness!

The Setting

“’This small clump of buildings here is the hamlet of Grimpen, where our friend Dr. Mortimer has his headquarters. Within a radius of five miles there are, as you see, only a very few scattered dwellings. Here is Lafter Hall, which was mentioned in the narrative. There is a house indicated here which may be the residence of the naturalist -- Stapleton, if I remember right, was his name. Here are two moorland farmhouses, High Tor and Foulmire. Then fourteen miles away the great convict prison of Princetown. Between and around these scattered points extends the desolate, lifeless moor. This, then, is the stage upon which tragedy has been played, and upon which we may help to play it again.’

‘It must be a wild place.’

‘Yes, the setting is a worthy one. If the devil did desire to have a hand in the affairs of men –‘”

Ah, Dartmoor, Wuthering Heights has nothing on you! Not only are we confronted with a “ huge expanse of the moor, mottled with gnarled and craggy caims and tors. A cold wind swept down from it and set us shivering”, but there’s also an escaped convict and a phantom hound out there. At least…

It is often said that Dartmoor is a character in itself in the novel – does it come alive for you through CD’s writing?

What do you think of the names that CD chose for his (based-on-real-places-with-a-different-name) landmarks? I was struck, for example, by the contrast between the dark “Grimpen Mire” and “Foulmire” and the jolly “Lafter Hall” and “Merripit House”.

Holmes and Watson

“It may be that you are not yourself luminous, but you are a conductor of light. Some people without possessing genius have a remarkable power of stimulating it. I confess, my dear fellow, that I am very much in your debt."

CD provides us with his rationale for pairing his genius detective off with the more down-to-earth, less insightful figure who relates the story. This formula was to be repeated later by many writers of detective fiction - notably Agatha Christie with Hercule Poirot and Captain Hastings – although Wilkie Collins could be considered to have used the device prior to CD, as we shall see when we read The Moonstone in January.

Does the technique work for you? How do you feel about Holmes’ deductive skills as compared to Watson’s conclusions? Genuine insight, or lucky guesses?

Pip wrote: "The Holmes stories in general have a Gothic feel to them, and none more so than The Hound."

I am irresistibly reminded of The Mysteries of Udolpho.

I was surprised, when I tried to find other novels set on Dartmoor, that there are very few. Laurie King, in her Mary Russell/Sherlock Holmes stories (I generally avoid novels that steal other authors' characters, but I make an exception for hers) has Holmes retire to Dartmoor, but other than that I could find very few novels with Dartmoor as a primary character. (Hardy has Egdon Heath, but while it's wild and remote, it doesn't have the blackness of Dartmoor.)

Pip wrote: "Holmes and Watson

“It may be that you are not yourself luminous, but you are a conductor of light. Some people without possessing genius have a remarkable power of stimulating it. I confess, my de..."

This is more general about H&W than specifically about THOTB, but no spoilers for any of the stories.

Some of the Holmes movies, particularly the Basil Rathbone ones, present Holmes as a bumbling near idiot. This isn't, as I read the stories, the way CD presented him. After all, he's a doctor, so presumably fairly well educated, and he was a military man, so although wounded presumably in good physical condition (and he keeps up with Holmes as he trots around the city). He is very useful to Holmes at times, and of course he is a quite competent writer as the amanuensis of Holmes.

While I wouldn't go so far as to call H&W a partnership of equals, I think Watson's role and responsibilities are greater than many readers, and most movie directors, are willing to acknowledge.

Good point, Everyman. In fact, THOTB is very much Watson's adventure. It will be interesting to see by the end of the book what other personal qualities he demonstrates.

Everyman wrote: "I am irresistibly reminded of The Mysteries of Udolpho"

Funny you should say that... The description of the moor made me think of Claude Lorrain and Salvator Rosa's paintings - especially the latter- which Radcliffe borrowed heavily from in her narrative to describe in detail places she had never visited. Dartmoor doesn't have the striking verticality of their paintings, but the dark, dramatic, brooding wildness is all there.

Re Watson's role:
Aside from the usefulness of Dr. Watson to Sherlock Holmes, it seems to me that Dr. Watson is essential for the story in a literary sense. We experience the story through Dr. Watson. I think we can more readily identify with him than Sherlock Holmes and therefore enjoy the story more.

Brit wrote: "Re Watson's role:
Aside from the usefulness of Dr. Watson to Sherlock Holmes, it seems to me that Dr. Watson is essential for the story in a literary sense. We experience the story through Dr. Wats..."

Excellent point. It gives Holmes a chance to share his thinking with us in a way a normal third party narrator couldn't. And a first party narrative by Holmes wouldn't work because there would be no magic in his coming out with his conclusions (such as about the cane) and then explaining how he got there. You're perfectly right that the stories need Watson.

Brit: I agree. Watson is a great literary device. I can't imagine being in Holmes' head for very long. But Watson is easy to take, rational, social. We are comfortable seeing through his eyes. I have felt tension since he arrived at the Baskerville place. Given your reminder, I am guessing that CD is "using" Watson to create tension in the reader.

Linda wrote: "Given your reminder, I am guessing that CD is "using" Watson to create tension in the reader. "

Although there is tension enough just in the situation, isn't there?

I was remembering tension about one or two times Watson didn't act. Didn't want to use spoilers...and probably minor. You're right, though. Tension about Watson is hardly necessary.

Everyman wrote: "I was surprised, when I tried to find other novels set on Dartmoor, that there are very few."

You're right, although Dartmoor's North Devon sister Exmoor is the setting for Lorna Doone and Jamaica Inn takes place on Bodmin Moor in the neighbouring county of Cornwall. Purely thinking of classic lit here.

Devon in general appears quite frequently in literature; apart from the moors it has North and South coasts and some very beautiful, relatively untouched countryside. Other worthies set here include Tarka The Otter, The French Lieutenant's Woman, a lot of Dame Agatha Christie and some of the Sainted Jane Austen ;-) And, yes, I realise I've moved away from the strictly Victorian here!

Linda wrote: "I was remembering tension about one or two times Watson didn't act. Didn't want to use spoilers...and probably minor. You're right, though. Tension about Watson is hardly necessary."

Linda - and anyone else - do you know how to use the spoiler function on GR? If you're worried about giving plot information away, you can "hide" it within your comment. If you click on (some html is ok) at the top right of the comment box, it explains how to include spoilery stuff within < > and < / > .

This is what it looks like: (view spoiler)[It was Colonel Mustard, in the conservatory with the lead piping. (hide spoiler)]

Easier on a PC or tablet than a phone, and the GR app, as I remember, is a bit useless on this front.

Apologies if you did know all this and I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs.

Hiding spoilers, italics:
I use a Goodreads app on my iPod and it seems like all my can do is plain text. Anyone else using this? If so, is there a good place to get more instructions?

Thanks and my apologies for adding this kind of comment in the group read.

Alas, my ipad is so old that it will no longer support u-tube, so I was not surprised when I followed your directions and nothing happened. But I will look for this function when I'm at my desktop.

Brit and Linda - I use both an iPhone and an iPad for most of my GR posting, but I gave up on the app ages ago. What I did instead was to create a desktop icon link to the GR web page and in that way you get full functionality. Message me if you don't know how to do that and I'll send instructions.

Pip wrote: "You're right, although Dartmoor's North Devon sister Exmoor is the setting for Lorna Doone and Jamaica Inn takes place on Bodmin Moor in the neighbouring county of Cornwall. Purely thinking of classic lit here. ."

And, of course, there are the Yorkshire moors, featured in Wuthering Heights among others. But much further afield than your examples.

Everyman wrote: "And, of course, there are the Yorkshire moors, featured in Wuthering Heights among others. But much further afield than your examples."

Ha, yes! I think for your average Brit Devon and Yorkshire are practically in separate continents ;-) In North America you're obviously used to much larger distances. As a child, we travelled from our home in West Yorks to Bristol in the South West every year for Xmas at my grandparents', and it seemed like the longest journey there could possibly be in the world. For you chaps, it would probably have been the equivalent to de-icing the station wagon and popping out for a bottle of milk. Have I been watching too many films?!

We drove from Philadelphia to near Augusta, Maine every summer to my grandparents' farm. It was a two day trip -- we stopped midway at a set of cabins which were the original roadside motel. There are very few of those left these days, but they were all over the place in the 40s and 50s. I don't remember where the cabins were exactly, somewhere in Massachusetts, but I can remember the actual cabins and the hillside they were on quite well.

Today, with the Interstate, the trip can be done in one long day, but back then it was mostly U.S. Route 1 had a speed limit usually, if memory serves, of 50 mph and much slower when it went through all the small towns, not to mention having to take a ferry across the Hudson river since my mother didn't trust the Holland or Lincoln tunnels.

Apologies for leading everyone off topic... Here's an attempt to get us back into the depths of Dartmoor again!

In the seventh and last chapter of this section, we see the moor in a more cheerful light - at least to begin with. However, the sinister is always lurking; we have only just recovered from the mysterious sobbing in the night, when we are presented with the great Grimpen Mire and the horrific image of it swallowing up a pony. On top of that comes our Watson's first direct experience of the Hound; the "long, low moan, indescribably sad" emanating from no clear direction.

Stapleton, the rationalist, shrugs it off as the cry of a bittern. If you'd like to hear a bittern booming, try this: http://sounds.bl.uk/environment/briti...
and you can see one in action here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ky5IYXh...

Whatever it is, we have now almost the complete set of characters populating our mystery set-up.
How have you found this first half? Do you think CD has done a good job of presenting the "problem", of creating a suitable atmosphere for his reader and giving you sufficient threads to unravel?

CD has very skilfully set up the "problem" and the atmosphere has been equally well presented-moving back and forth between the mysterious/creepy/dismal feel at night to the more cheerful sun-bathed (occasionally at least!) daytime views.

Having spent some time hiking in Dartmoor over the years (my husband's family were in Totnes, Devon for quite some time) I did find it a beautiful and desolate place-even today, with Britain being so heavily populated, there were huge areas where you might be the only group of people as far as you could see (and of course, the ponies are still there).

The characters he presents are complex-why are the butler and housekeeper so keen to leave? Granted, having come into some money they might well want to give up service, but is there something else? The Stapleton's are also somewhat hard to make out: Stapleton seems very forthright, scientific, friendly, however his response to the drowning pony and his relationship with his sister (and her going behind his back to warn Watson/Baskerville) are a little suspicious.

Pip wrote: "Holmes and Watson

“It may be that you are not yourself luminous, but you are a conductor of light. Some people without possessing genius have a remarkable power of stimulating it. I confess, my de..."

I always thought that Watson was supposed to stand in for the reader-presumably intelligent enough to appreciate Holmes' brilliance, but not able to reproduce his logical deductions and without his extensive knowledge of arcane details on a wide range of unrelated topics. I agree that film and TV have done him a great disservice in some cases-although the Watson of the Jeremy Brett/BBC series was pretty close to how I would have imagined him.

Frances wrote: "Pip wrote: "Holmes and Watson

“It may be that you are not yourself luminous, but you are a conductor of light. Some people without possessing genius have a remarkable power of stimulating it. I co..."

I know I identify with Watson because when he doesn't follow Holmes' instructions, I'm uncomfortable. Even though I know it's a better story that way. (view spoiler)[ Holmes warns Watson to always stay with the heir, but Watson leaves him alone to go into town. Then, when Watson is with the postmaster, he fails to write Holmes about the suspicious butler and housekeeper around the moan. (hide spoiler)] The first half of THOTB has definitely put me on the edge CD wanted me on.

Hey, it worked! Thanks, Pip.

Frances wrote: "The characters he presents are complex"

You're right Frances - and as a British West Country girl myself, I can say that it's a breath of fresh air to come across West Country village characters who aren't just simpletons who believe in every bizarre yarn that's forced upon them! I know the Stapletons aren't originally from Devon, but I think the Barrymores are.

Wonderful to hear you've actually been to Dartmoor! England is small and its natural wonders are small-scale compared to much of what there is out there in the world - but the atmosphere when you encounter the few places which are less densely populated is truly incredible!

Frances wrote: ".the Watson of the Jeremy Brett/BBC series was pretty close to how I would have imagined him. "

On screen, Jeremy Brett IS Sherlock for me, odd quirks and all. He had two different Watsons throughout the series, though I think Edward Hardwicke accompanies him in THOTB and gets it just right.

Watson isn't meant to be a stupid man by any means. As we've already mentioned, he's the intelligent observer, the bridge between a brain few could ever penetrate and the above-average reasoning person who enjoys a good mystery and who may even be able to work out bits and pieces for themselves!

Linda wrote: "Hey, it worked! Thanks, Pip. "

Use your new powers wisely, Young Jedi.

Linda wrote "I identify with Watson because when he doesn't follow Holmes' instructions"

It's that classic suspense movie cliché: "Whatever you do, open the door to nobody but me". You know that door is going to be important and every time it comes into view you start to cringe up against the back of your sofa!

Where are you from originally, Pip? We've visited Cornwall, both coasts of Devon and some of Somerset and it's all beautiful-the coastal walks are wonderful. There is quite a contrast to hiking in Eastern Canada where most hikes go through a forest for most of the way and then you arrive at a lovely view (and there is certainly pleasure to be had in walking through a forest)- but we've always loved walking in Britain where it is so much more open-either you are crossing fields or walking the coastline or climbing uncovered hills-and there is almost always a long view to be had.

The Moors and Dartmoor in particular are special, though-open to views but covered with these huge rocky formations, rapidly changing weather which is often misty or overcast, empty for large areas of most marks of modern civilization-very atmospheric.

Frances wrote: "Where are you from originally, Pip? We've visited Cornwall, both coasts of Devon and some of Somerset and it's all beautiful-the coastal walks are wonderful. There is quite a contrast to hiking in ..."

I was born in Bristol, but my family moved around a lot. I've lived in Austen country, Brontë country, also Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire and London... Pretty much a nomad! My parents are now settled in North Devon (Barnstaple) where my father owned a bookshop for many years before the chainstores moved in.

I'm not a big hiker, but I do love just being in the countryside. Here where I live now in The Basque Country people don't consider it "getting out into the open" unless you've had to use special equipment and I really miss just having "the countryside" on my doorstep!!!

Frances wrote: The characters he presents are complex-why are the butler and housekeeper so keen to leave? Granted, having come into some money they might well want to give up service, but is there something else? "

I can understand their wanting to get away, what with their master dying in such a horrible fashion, and the family apparently under a curse (and rural country folk of the time may very well have believed implicitly in curses; it wasn't that far back that they were burning witches). Enough maybe was enough! In fact, I thought it was pretty brave of them to stay alone in that big house after the death.

The butler and housekeeper are both suspect for a variety of reasons. Was the man following Holmes and Watson the butler? Why was the housekeeper weeping? What do they know about their master's death? Why are they eager to leave? And what was that "moan"?

It seems to me that these two people know a lot that the reader doesn't. And yet, Everyman's comment reminds me that they may not be guilty of anything. They HAVE been through a stressful event. It's understandable they'd want to get out.

I like to figure out what Conan Doyle is trying to do. He WAS plowing new ground...that is, laying out the groundwork for a brand-new (relatively new, because there was Poe and there was Collins)...genre. At the beginning of THOTB, Holmes lists all the suspects. Many of the tropes still used in mysteries are traced to CD. I wonder if this is the first time a detective names all the possible suspects.