The Grishaverse discussion

"At the head of the table was an ornately carved, high-backed chair of blackest ebony, and upon it lounged a figure in a black kefta, his chin resting on one pale hand."

I'm drooling....sigh!!!

Darklina for life!

*happy sigh*

OHHHHHHH GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD. I CAN'T EVEN, I AM UNABLE TO EVEN.

*hyperventilates*

Oh Darkling *swoon*

Beautiful, enigmatic and a bit twisted. What's not to like?
I want to know EVERYTHING about him: his name, is he really that much into herring? what was he doing all those times we didn't know where he was? what was he doing all those times we kind of did know but not really? who have been his companions/gfs/etc? what kind of future does he see with Alina?

And so many more questions I'm sure he'd need a couple more books to be able answer.

So, mostly, I want the Darkling for always... I want the Darkling to never end ;)

DAMN IT HE HAS TO HOOK UP WITH ALINA!!! C'MON JUST PULL A WARNER!!!

HA! Pull a Warner! I completely agree!

The book-lover-me hopes "Please stay our complicated villain and give us an awesomely epic ending!" The fangirl-me screams "Listen to these people!!! Give us the DxA ending we need until we're emotionally exhausted." Errgh... Ruin and Rising can't come soon enough!

I'm a darkling-alina shipper too but I think it will be difficult to pull another Warner situation here. We're already in the last book :( I don't want to expect it anymore, I hate disappointment. My only wish for now is that the Darkling will have the ending he deserves (either alive or dead).

How come he's so evil yet so irresistable? This is unfair. >.<

We should hate him for everything he has done. I mean look at poor Genya for example. But he keeps reeling me in. The villain you live to hate, or the villain you hate to love?
This series is one of my all time top reads. Can't wait for ruin and rising, though living in Africa god knows when I'll get my hands on a copy :( Arghhhhhhh!!!!!

To me the Darkling is one of the most intriguing characters I've read about in a long time. I'm VERY interesting in learning more of his true self in R&R. We've only scratched the surface so far, only knowing what he wants us to.

Couldn't agree more!

While the Darklings back story seems complicated it baffles me that someone who should be smart and powerful is so single minded and uncaring in his pursuit of his goals. Alina is constantly thinking of others and seems to recognize her selfish moments the Darkling however is completely unreasonable and selfish but can't seem to see it that way. He is super evil....

Pull a Warner is the greatest thing i have ever heard haha. I really like the Darkling's story and i really hope that we get more insight on that.

*Doesn't quite know what a Warner is*

I think hate to love The Darkling, and I love to hate Mal...
Is that weird?
I mean Mal's okay...
But The Darkling...
The Darkling <3

Warner is the character who starts off as the baddie in the shattered trilogy.

I really don't like the Darkling at all. I mean, he's interesting, but just....look at Genya, look at all the stuff he's done. But for the record, I immediately started hating Mal after S&S.

Here's one thing to consider. It's hard to look at things objectively without bias. I think that perhaps we are quick to hate what the Darkling did not because of WHAT he did per say, but because of WHOM he did it to.

The action is disfiguring a person who betrayed the Darkling and his trust.

The victims were two characters we loved.

Now, what if this same action happened to a character we hate? The king, perhaps. Would people be angry or happy if the Darkling had the king's eyes removed? (Obviously everyone will feel differently on this.)

But my point is this. Take away the fact that it was a character you love, and replace that character with a person you hate. If you still hate the Darkling for it, then good, because you hate the action (and not just because of whom the victim is).

For me though, I do understand WHY the Darkling punished Genya and Baghra. From his perspective, they betrayed him and his trust. The EXTREMITY of the punishment is where I have the issue. I get that Baghra and Genya had to be punished, and I even get why he chose the punishments he did (he took away Genya's beauty, which she highly valued, and Baghra's keen sight, which she highly valued) but I wish he had been more merciful when it comes to dealing out punishments.

Having said all this, I don't think the Darkling is evil. I think he's the result of immortality. Detached, isolated, feared, lonely, etc. He's the only constant in a world of constantly changing, growing, evolving, living and dying. I think it's made him into a "the end will justify the means" kind of person, who will do whatever he believes is necessary for his vision of the greater good.

I do not agree with what the Darkling did to Genya and Bahgra. I really love them both.

However, in the series, this kind of behavior is very well explained by Nikolai when he's trying to convey to Alina the horrors one has to inflict to be a respected leader. Remember that scene?
(view spoiler)[ A young Sturmhond cuts his enemy's fingers and feeds them to his puppy while his enemy and everyone else watch. Then that night with no witnesses he vomits and cries himself to sleep. (hide spoiler)]

I always thought the whole purpose of that scene was to somehow explain the Darkling and some of the awful things he does. Not saying the end justifies the means. Just saying that to be in such a position of power, people like Nikolai and the Darkling have done things they're not proud of and probably brought them much pain as well.

Yes, I agree with that. We know the Darkling was pained when Alina mentioned Baghra. He had to look away from her. And obviously Nikolai was not proud either.

I don't know why this bothers me so. But it does. I don't understand how you can all just forgive the Darkling. I don't understand how you can all like him after all he has done. I don't understand how you can all talk away the horrors he did to his mom and Genya. Sure, it is a "war" and whatnot, and he "HAD" to punish them. Which is just so not true. You don't do things like that to people. There is no excuse. Which is why it is so upsetting for me to read about you all loving him and forgiving him and not caring about all the bad stuff he does. He is an EVIL person. Nothing more, nothing less. At least, that is my opinion of it, hih (A) And I do understand that not many share my view of it. But yeah. I just have to share how I feel about it, or fear going crazy. Because yeah. It is messing with my mind a lot. I just don't understand it. I would never ever start liking the Darkling. And it would make me sick if Alina ends up with him, because then I just.. I wouldn't think of her as a smart or a good person. You just can't forgive someone who tortures people like that. At least, I couldn't :)

I don't think we're forgiving him exactly. For me it's kind of like an understanding of his actions. He's a very cold person and the punishment was extreme, but all leaders have to go through that. He doesn't want people to think if him as weak, and he sees mercy as a weakness. I don't think his actions define him completely, and I'll always be aware that he has made awful decisions.

Anyway, the Darkling is still one of my favorite characters. He's very deep and interesting. I will always ship Darklina! Like calls to like.

Not all love him just because he is hot. Some may admire the character for being a great villain. It's not that everyone that likes him condones his actions but are only just trying to look at things from multiple perspectives. Nothing's always black or white, attempting to see the actions and reasonings behind what's been done makes the characters more layered and realistic. Now with that that doesn't mean we don't care for other characters, I personally love Genya. We can see where she comes from and why she's done what she has so why not just try to do that with the Darkling as well? To attempt to see from his perspective.

But that's the thing. They aren't alike. Did Alina murder and torture a bunch of people? No, she hasn't. So I just don't think they are alike at all. But I don't blame you for shipping them :) I just don't agree, hih.

You say all leaders have to go through that. But that's the thing. He DID NOT torture those people for the good of everyone else. He did it for HIMSELF. A good leader does not do that. So yeah. I will just never ever forgive it or think of it as just.

Yes, I agree. It's about looking at things from his perspective. A villain is subjective to who the hero is. As Leigh has already said, the Darkling wouldn't be considered a villain if the books were told in his POV. If The Hunger Games were told from another tribute POV, Katniss would be an antagonist, not the protagonist. Perspective is everything.

I'm not saying I agree with everything the Darkling has done, but I do feel like I understand some of this actions. I've read evil villains before and to me, he is far from evil.

You can't be in the position that he is (or a queen or king, or leader of any kind in fantasy) without punishing those who betray you, break the law, etc. It's your duty to carry out consequences.

I do not hate the Darkling. I also find him an interesting character. But I HATE what he did. And I will never forgive it. There is no chance of forgiving him for the things he did. I also like Genya. I hated how she lied to Alina, but I also understood why. She never tortured anyone. And that is the difference. The Darkling is dark and evil. Sure, he can be interesting. But torture and things like that is just NOT OKAY. And when I see people loving him, it makes me think that you all think of it as OKAY to torture the people he did. What he did to Genya. Because ohh, she betrayed him! Shame on her. So she must be ruined. No. It is never okay. And that is just.. one of my biggest issues with it all. Sigh. I just don't get it. Would you have forgiven other characters for doing the same? Say.. a non-good-looking character. I just.. I think that people don't see how evil he is, because they want to love him. And I just don't understand. Because for me, there is no forgiveness for the things he did.

Perspective is everything you say. But I would NEVER have forgiven Alina if she had done what the Darkling did. It is just not okay.

Wait, where is it indicated that the Darkling tortured anyone for himself/for fun? The Darkling shows regret and guilt when Alina brings up Baghra's name.

"Did Alina murder and torture a bunch of people?"

Well, Alina left those people on the skiffs with the knowledge that they would die. Did she kill them directly? No. Indirectly, yes. Sure we can argue over who had the "better" reason for so many people dying, but both of them consciously made the choice, knowing people were going to die.

The thing about Darklina, is that The Darkling never does anything, for anyone to show that he's a somewhat OK person. Name one thing he does for the good of someone else. Even with Nikolai and cutting the guys fingers off, Nikolai did things for the good of other people. The Darkling doesn't do that.

I don't think that regret is real. And how do you explain Genya? No excuse for what he did to her.

Yes, I agree. He NEVER does anything good. He never says that he care for Alina, does he? That he loves her? No.

He is selfish. But he's been basically on his own for centuries. All this power has been going to his head for a VERY long time. I have such a soft spot for him. Maybe I'm biased, but isn't everyone?

After re-reading the part in S and B before the Darkling showed up and they had found the stag and Mal gave his whole 'love speech' I kinda fell in love with him again, but I can't get past his betrayal in the next book. And I can't get past the Darkling's betrayal prior to that. If I was Alina, I would only trust myself. Oh goodness, can't she just end up with Nikolai? That would shove it in both their faces!

This is true. I can't blame you. I just do not agree :) I don't like him at all. Sigh.

Sniffs. Mal, my love. <3 I still don't think that Mal betrayed Alina. (Talked a lot about my feelings in another discussion post.) Mal gave up everything for her. And Alina continues to hurt him in S&S. I would be hurt too. When we are hurt, we do stupid things. And Mal NEVER do anything as bad as the things the Darkling does. Sigh.

PFFFFF. Nikolai. I am SO PISSED off that he is a love interest. Ugh. Hoping there will be nothing more of that, hih :) But I do like him a lot. Just, no love interest.

Carina wrote: "I don't think that regret is real. And how do you explain Genya? No excuse for what he did to her."

I may think it was real regret, you may think it's fake regret, only time will tell if it was or not. :P

As I said before with Genya, I understand why a leader figure would punish one of his assumed trusted soldiers for betraying them. I found his punishment too harsh. I don't argue there. He could have punished her (or anyone else who did the same thing) in a more merciful way.

Hih, that is true. We will find out in Ruin and Rising :) Hopefully. (Still, I will not start liking him. Don't think it's okay what he did.)

Hmm. I may understand that. But yeah. I will never agree with how he punished her. It wasn't fair. It was just torture. At least in my eyes.

Jun wrote: "The thing about Darklina, is that The Darkling never does anything, for anyone to show that he's a somewhat OK person. Name one thing he does for the good of someone else. Even with Nikolai and cut..."


Oh, Nikolai is a charming golden boy. But consider this, only three people in the book have been able to fool the Darkling and get away with it: The Apparat, Alina and Nikolai.

Nikolai is as cunning as the Darkling, if not more. The only difference is that Nikolai has all the social graces and then some, while the Darkling doesn't.

True, Nikolai may end up being the sneakiest villain of all in the end. He may pull a Hans. Foxes are clever and tricky! (Any Teen Wolf watchers here?) :P

WinterRose wrote: "True, Nikolai may end up being the sneakiest villain of all in the end. He may pull a Hans. Foxes are clever and tricky!"
Oh, I would hate for that to happen! I love Nikolai! Of course, I really liked Hans too...

I don't want her to end up with Nikolai, and I don't want her to be with Mal and I don't want her to be with the Darkling! I don't want there to be a fourth love interest, and I hope Mal has some redeeming quality in Ruin and Rising. I honestly have no clue what the end is going to be like, or how she's going to "rise."

Oh goodness. No. This better not end up like a divergent slap in my face. I won't be able to handle it.

I cannt wait to see how it all ends. But I don't agree. You hope Mal will redeem himself? What about Alina and how much she hurt him? He is not the only one to blame! Alina made it happen. And I need her to care more for Mal in R&R. He loves her. And he thinks she does not care much. I need her to show that she does. He is not the only one who made a mistake.

I would not mind Nikolai being a villain :D

Emma wrote: "I don't want her to end up with Nikolai, and I don't want her to be with Mal and I don't want her to be with the Darkling! I don't want there to be a fourth love interest, and I hope Mal has some r..."

I'm preparing myself for the worst possible scenarios, to be honest. I hope it ends well but I fear it will not. I call it pre-emptive pessimism ;P

That was not a possibility I had thought of. (Nikolai being the end villain) thank you for preparing me for that.

Oh goodness. I seriously cannot wait for this! Alina does have some things she needs to answer for, but when I put myself in both of their shoes, I understand that everyone deals with things differently. I hated that Mal started drinking and fighting. I also hate that he kissed a girl Alina CLEARLY despised. And I hate that Alina wouldn't talk to him, and she sort of pushed him away. She didn't give enough attention, but her attention had to be focused elsewhere. There is war going on. She doesn't have time for love, though she shouldn't have shut him out completely. I have mixed feelings about this.

I also hated that Mal did that. But I also understood him. He started fighting because he was hurt, and probably because the guys disliked him a lot. He lost his position in the army because of Alina. He gave it up to be with her. And she can't find time to be with him? Not right. Sigh. I dob't blame him for what he did. He tells her he loves her. Asks if she feels the same. And she does not reply. That is the worst. For me. :)

Haha I'm also preparing for the worst. (Basically my vision of the worst is the Darkling dying so there's a good chance of that..)

I think the Darkling dying would be the best ending, but i think he should die realising kind of what immortality did to him. Like maybe have Alina "cleanse" him or something. Death should be his forgiveness.