The Fires of Heaven discussion

I'm enjoying the series thus far, it's not as good as I expected but still an enormously impressive work of fantasy fiction, but I am growing very tired of all the gender-based ... things. Male characters are always lamenting the strangeness of women while the female characters are always lamenting the inadequacies of men. The huge and meaningless point that is made of the differences between men and women suggests too much of the author's personality and not the personality of the characters, in my opinion, and that is frustrating. It detracts from the character development immensely and midway through book 5 this deliberated bullshit is so annoying that I'm on Goodreads writing about it.

Apart from that, having an entire magic system (and universal order) based on the differences between male and female seems rather disappointing in a time when we are actively trying to break down the social constructs that have so separated the worlds of women and men. One also has to wonder what a hermaphrodite Aes Sedai might have been able to do... Jordan obviously just didn't want to think about that possibility which to me is a failing in the field of authentic world-building. It is fair to say here that Jordan has created strong female characters; however, I am tired of them always being saved by the male characters and Rand's ridiculous issue with killing women - again, that feels too forced, too contrived, and reveals the author's hand too clearly.

I am just really tired of all the characters privately bitching about one another solely based on their genders, it's so... lame. And stupid. And I really expected better of Jordan and his great "Wheel of Time".

Okay. Now that I have ranted and gotten it out of my system I'll be able to continue with the story and gloss over this personal little problem I have with Jordan's writing.

I think it is interesting, though, as a model of a society that has strongly defined, delineated gender roles but is more egalitarian than our society. In fact, the power balance leans more towards women because they have been the only magic users for centuries. There is something of a failure on the part of the author to realize the social differences that would exist with women tending more towards leadership roles (I mean, women running around in impractical, uncomfortable dresses seems very unlikely, as do the chivalrous attitudes of some of the male characters), but it's still interesting.

As for the gender binary, I mean, it is what it is. Souls, apparently, are gendered (as Balthamel's continued access to Saidin proves, after he becomes Aran'gar), so I suppose a hypothetical transgender channeler would be able to access whatever source their soul was aligned with. The narrative is pretty old fashioned in its approach to gender, but I don't think that's all that out of line with what one would expect of a culture like the ones described.

Also, attitudes on gender and such are shifting very rapidly. People often forget how much the Internet is accelerating cultural change. As far as most Americans were concerned, in the 90s, transgender people might as well have not existed. There are lesbians in the WoT, but that seemed to be mostly a byproduct of Aes Sedai distrust of men in the narrative, not a widely accepted orientation. Only when Sanderson took over did we get a male homosexual character. Even though the series isn't all that old, it's already becoming an artifact of outdated cultural assumptions.

Remember that the Aes Sedai were the only magic users primarily due to the process of eradicating any male that could touch the power, and that this was done even though the prophecies dictated that in the end men and women had to work together to succeed. I admit its been a while since I've read them, but I do remember the frustration of reading the parts that focused on the gender-based hostilities. It was only after realizing the full story associated to the breaking that the role issues were fully understandable and tolerable. Luckily, the parts of the book that focused on Matt's shenanigans were enough to get me through the rough spots ;) Don't get me wrong. They were great books, but I'll read a good Salvatore book any day before revisiting these.

Daniel wrote: "I think it is interesting, though, as a model of a society that has strongly defined, delineated gender roles but is more egalitarian than our society. In fact, the power balance leans more towards..."

@ Dan, I agree with you but SPOILER ALERT! I couldn't finish reading your post as much as I'd like to because of that. I don't want to read the next person's post either in case something else is given away. But you're absolutely right in everything you said :)

It is natural that women would become more dominant in a world where for 3000 years they have been the only ones who could safely use the One Power.

Not only the Aes Sedai, but most of the strongest nations have queens not kings, in Andor it is even stipulated that only a queen can rule.

I also found the constant misunderstandings between men and women irritating and their stupid thought comments on the other gender. Otherwise I agree with Daniel about the souls business.

Kent wrote: "Remember that the Aes Sedai were the only magic users primarily due to the process of eradicating any male that could touch the power, and that this was done even though the prophecies dictated tha..."

They had to eradicate men who could Channel. Wasn't the Breaking of the World enough evidence that men couldn't be allowed to Channel? They of course knew a man would come who would be the Dragon Reborn.