Best Fantasy Books Subgenre Reading Challenge discussion

I think we can tell immediately that Prince of Thorns is an anti-hero story that so far fits right into the low fantasy subgenre. And there's no prologue in this one. ;) At first I was wondering if we were seeing things from the villain's perspective, but I soon knew it was the protagonist and he's an anti-hero.

The tone of this book is far more casual and contemporary than in The Eye of the World or The Way of Kings. There's even modern cursing. To be honest, coming off the other two books, this one shocked me out of my medieval-formal expectations. Every time they say something that sounds really modern, even in the narrative sections, it surprised me. I had to get used to it!

I'm finding Prince of Thorns extremely readable and fast-paced. I'm up to page 76, and the shorter chapters are a very nice change. I'm a fan of short chapters and sections in general, but that's not the most common thing in fantasy, in my limited experience. I've seen very little magic up to this point - another characteristic of low fantasy. BFB also defines low fantasy by these themes: "struggles for power, moral ambiguity, and cynicism about society and the flawed nature of the human condition". We have every single one of those so far. This book may be the very definition of its subgenre.

*This thread is dedicated to all Prince of Thorns discussions, and spoilers are allowed. Discussions won't be broken down by chapter, so comment as you go.*

Started it as well. So far, it isn't my thing and it is. Beautifully written, I like the casual contemporary and the get-to-the-point brevity. But I'm finding it difficult to enjoy the character. It's like I'm stuck in Kylo Ren's head and I'm normally not down with those kind of characters (unless they undergo a fundamental change or actually have a weakness beyond just being more-super-duper-uper evil than anyone else). Way too early for me to give a solid opinion though.

Russ wrote: "Started it as well. So far, it isn't my thing and it is. Beautifully written, I like the casual contemporary and the get-to-the-point brevity. But I'm finding it difficult to enjoy the character. I..."

I know what you mean, Russ, and I agree about the uber evilness not being enough drive for the character for the whole book. I do like that at one point, Jorg does think, "Hey, other people have gone through similar painful experiences. What gives me a right to react this way?" (not an actual quote from the book, just my paraphrasing). I'm also hoping to see some sort of growth or change that will give us a more well rounded character.

I'm up to chapter 19 now. It's pretty clear now that Jorg is murders and pillages and rapes (literally) because of his severe guilt over what he perceived as cowardice when he stayed hidden in the brambles and didn't help his mother and brother. Now he's going overboard to prove he's not a coward, but he's not doing it in an honorable way by, for example, leading his people as prince or leading the guards. Instead he's become like the men who murdered his brother and raped and murdered his mother - brutal, callous, malicious. The last chapter made it so clear that he's still not past his childhood trauma.

I am aiming to join in on with this discussion, I was hoping for the 12th January but I am so behind with some of my physical reading but hope to join in soon.

Great, Sue! I think you'll find that even if this book doesn't turn out to be your taste, it's a fast-paced read that's easy to get caught up in. Hope you're enjoying your other books :)

I finished this book today, and when I finish a book, what I'm going to do is list the elements of its subgenre and discuss whether I think the book does in fact fit the subgenre's description. Feel free to do the same! Also, discussion can of course continue after this post - this is just my subgenre assessment.

Low fantasy subgenre:

- does not focus on heroism or sweeping vistas, it is a gritter anti-hero story: YES, this was 100% anti-hero, very gritty, and didn't focus on the setting much. There were only small descriptions here and there.
- has less magic and a less fantastical, more ordinary setting: the setting is very medieval and plain. Compared to books like The Eye of the World and The Way of Kings, this book doesn't have much magic at all. About halfway through the magic picks up slowly, and by the end, the necromancer's magic is even part of Jorg. So there isn't an absence of magic, but it's definitely a diminished amount compared to the other two books I mentioned.

Common thematic elements include:
- struggles for power: that's pretty much the whole book, both within the brothers and for the kingdom.
- moral ambiguity: more a complete lack of morals, but as Jorg develops, ambiguity comes about.
- cynicism about society and the flawed nature of the human condition: this is mostly present in the situation that brought Jorg to where he is - the murder of his mother and brother and the lack of caring from his father about the event. I think we see this most heavily surrounding anything to do with Jorg's biological family. Of course Jorg's psychological condition fulfills the flawed nature of the human condition, but we'll have to see if that's still true since we find out in the end that he was being controlled by Corion. His psychological condition was manipulated.

Prince of Thorns definitely fits into the low fantasy category, and I'm wondering if the next book in the series will raise the magic up a step and maybe even end up putting it into a different subgenre from this book. Besides the magic angle, I think the next book would probably still suit low fantasy.

Almost gave up on this one, the character was so incredibly annoying. Cynical, I can do. Angsty, I can deal with. Gary Stu? In small doses. All the above in one character - nope. Can't say I felt the explanation was acceptable either (The almost throwaway scene of "I threw rocks really good and killed a guy, impossible shots" implying it was the magic, was inadequate. If mages can turn little children into murder machines capable of singlehandedly killing grown men by the dozens - why don't they turn THEMSELVES into murder machines so when the kid comes for them, they win...). Probably a good read if I were a lonely 10-15 year old again I suppose, but I'm not the target anymore and haven't been for a while. Overall, I do think it is a fine book but I can't really rate it since I don't feel it was written with me as the intended audience.

Russ wrote: "Almost gave up on this one, the character was so incredibly annoying. Cynical, I can do. Angsty, I can deal with. Gary Stu? In small doses. All the above in one character - nope. Can't say I felt t..."

I'm really glad you shared your feelings about the book! I can see what you mean about Jorg's narrative style. I didn't think of it as angsty, but sometimes I got a little sick of hearing "the barbs/thorns" over and over.

In fantasy, one of the things I have trouble with is telling what's generally acceptable and what isn't, since the whole point is a sort of bendable reality. I figured the idea of turning Jorg into a machine that would kill his family was so that it couldn't be traced back to the opposing kingdom and to sort of implode Jorg's kingdom, or at least cripple it by destroying the family that rules. This whole "impossible shots" type of concept is in The Way of Kings too as something the character Kaladin recognizes over time but doesn't put much thought into. He's practically invincible, yet he doesn't start to realize it until around 50% or more through the book. Maybe it's some sort of recurring concept in fantasy, or maybe it's just a coincidence. Interesting point though!

I think there is a school of thought that says fantasy = wish fulfillment on top of all the other typical tropes of dragons and magic, etc. You see that in Name of the Wind, Sanderson's work and the like. Somebody is "the chosen one" and they are invincible or amazing, etc. In others, fantasy is simply a way to tell more grounded stories in a universe with different rules from our own (say, Grossman's Magicians or LeGuin's Earthsea series - especially her newer stories in that world.) Both are perfectly fine and acceptable in the genre but I find people's tastes usually fall on one side or the other.

Russ wrote: "I think there is a school of thought that says fantasy = wish fulfillment on top of all the other typical tropes of dragons and magic, etc. You see that in Name of the Wind, Sanderson's work and th..."

The more I read fantasy, the more I see that line clearly drawn between these two kinds of books. That's a good observation. I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on yet!