So You Want To Be A Thriller Writer, A Discussion Group discussion

All authors have to edit their masterpiece. How do you edit yours? Do you do it yourself? Do you use an editor? Let's hear what works for you.

I'm a freelance editor by trade but I still hire 3 editors for my novels: 1). content/developmental editor to advise about story and characterization, structure/plot 2) a copy editor for grammar, sentence structure, and consistency 3) a proofreader at final manuscript.

As writers cannot see our own errors no matter how good we think we are. Publishers hire 3 editors like I've numbered above so why shouldn't we as authors do the same to produce quality manuscripts.

Hi Paula,

I totally agree with you. One of the downfalls to hiring 3 editors is cost. It can be very expensive.

Any suggestions for us writer's on a budget?

There are some beta readers who are editors. They actually do beta reading for free so they can open the door to new clients. Goodreads has some beta readers groups and certain genre groups have folders for beta readers. You have to check their credentials and see if they are set up as editors or proofreaders besides being a beta reader. A good beta reader, who is also an editor or proofreader, will give you some good feedback.

The thing is, it's really important to produce a professional piece of writing when you self-publish. Without professional editors, that is impossible to do on your own. Self-pubbed writers are getting a black mark as amateurs because they don't hire content editor or line editors. Investing in editors are well worth it for any writer. Writer learn a lot from editors.

I can suggest Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King. Great book to get the basics on what an editor looks to correct, and this book will improve writing skills. But again, no writer can see and catch every error. The more clean eyes you have on the page the better. One of the reasons that 3 editors is so critical for the highest accuracy. Hope this helps.

Great post, Paula. I think Self-editing is essential, as well as learning how to do it. Many new writers think it's just about hunting down typos, rather than the big important stuff. Of course, typos are killers, too. Understanding the Big Picture and finding the essential storyline is an exercise worth doing as soon as possible.

Glad to hear your thoughts, Jim. So many writers fail to recognize that being a writer is a profession. It really is for all of us.

I was a technical writer and editot on data development projects for over twenty years. That's where I cut my teeth. And all that time I wanted to write thriller novels. Now I can, but novels are quite different. So it's like learning a ton of stuff by digging it out on my own. Good thing I enjoy doing that research. Subsequently, I know enough to avoid rushing right out there to Amazon Kindle with a half-baked product nobody will want to read. "Wanting them to like it" is MY choice. Other new writers don't care about any of that and I try to avoid them. But, yunno, anything worth the time and energy to write is worth doing well (satisfying reader expectations).

I agree, Jim. I like your "Anything worth the time and energy to write is worth doing well."

I do all my own editing and proofing. By the time I release my book I am sick of reading it! I then reread after about a month and find a few further errors. With experience my editing has vastly improved. Remember that most people who read are not grammar experts and are looking for great content. They will forgive a couple of errors if the story is great. Thanks to technology, it is easy to update your book if you become aware of errors. However, I have seen some terribly edited self published books with glaring errors in the first page. That is simply unacceptable!

I agree, Bill. Writers do need to write well and polish the content with good edits. I'm from the old school when we did hard copy edits all the time. Reading on the screen is so slippery because you are reading light instead of the printed page. Two hard copy reads is essential to catch errors. Reading line by line in reverse is another trick. But in the end, a clean pair of eyes who have never seen the work before is really the most accurate option.

Paula wrote: "There are some beta readers who are editors. They actually do beta reading for free so they can open the door to new clients. Goodreads has some beta readers groups and certain genre groups have fo..."

Thanks, Paula. I will be checking out Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King. I will add this to our bookshelf.

I agree with a lot that has been said so far. I'd also add that when doing copy editing versus development editing, I think doing specific tasks (a pass for ensuring you've used the serial comma consistently or not, a pass for formatting, etc.) is very helpful. Trying to do all the checks in the same pass makes it more difficult.

I'm also a big fan of putting the draft in the drawer (or not looking at it onscreen) for a few weeks or more between passes.

I agree with a lot that has been said so far. I'd also add that when doing copy editing versus development editing, I think doing specific tasks (a pass for ensuring you've used the serial comma consistently or not, a pass for formatting, etc.) is very helpful. Trying to do all the checks in the same pass makes it more difficult.

I'm also a big fan of putting the draft in the drawer (or not looking at it onscreen) for a few weeks or more between passes.

Editing anything is hard for me, because I have Dyslexia

Janessa, I read somewhere that Agatha Christie and F.Scott Fitzgerald had dyslexia, Jules Verne, Yeats, Flaubert and others did too. I think there's software now, "writing editors" that might help or other kinds of software that can assist you.

Paula wrote: "Janessa, I read somewhere that Agatha Christie and F.Scott Fitzgerald had dyslexia, Jules Verne, Yeats, Flaubert and others did too. I think there's software now, "writing editors" that might help ..."
There are a lot of successful people out there with learning differences that I don't feel so bad about mine.

Good thinking, Janessa. Good luck with your writing endeavors!

:)

Developmental editing is probably the most needed and least employed editing in the self-published world.

Most are lucky if they can swing paying for a decent copy edit (which, although you can get for $300 or less, you’d be wise to spend at least $750 to insure you’re getting your money’s worth) to fix the words they’ve written.

If a developmental editor gets involved and tells you you started the novel in the wrong place, or points out glaring plot holes, either of which could spell months of rewriting or wholesale reorganization, I’m not sure most self-published authors are equipped to deal with that.

In my observations, story structure is the principal culprit in bad novels. That and “fluff.”

Pete, you're absolutely correct on the importance of developmental editing. The value of someone looking long and hard at the structure, plot, etc., and helping you kill your darlings is very important.

Good point, Pete. Many writers don't see that the creative writing process is a long road and hard work as well. Nobody writes a good first draft. Nobody writes a perfect second draft. Stephen King reports that he still uses a content editor for his early drafts, and he's written some 50 novels. He advises in his "On Writing" book to put your drafts away for 6 six weeks before rewriting the next draft.

This ain't for lightweights.

I use a few different groups to help me edit. I find they all provide very different, but equally valuable, input as I navigate my way to the final product.

I'm a member of a critique group, which consists of 10-12 writers. We meet every two weeks, with 6-7 normally attending a particular session and 3-4 having something to read to the group. The author reads his material (normally a chapter or less) out loud and the others follow along on type-written pages making suggestions or edits as they go along. I find different people in the group have their own areas of expertise and catch different things. One member of our group has written thirteen novels and I consider her the master of dialog. Someone else in the group might catch point-of-view changes and another grammar mistakes or typos. They will also comment on the overall content (e.g. not enough action or conflict).

The second group I use are beta readers, who are completely different from the above group. These are "regular" people, not writers. I don't use any beta readers until I'm finished a complete draft of the book. I'm only looking for general feedback from them about the overall story. What parts did you like? What parts did you not like? Did you find it held your interest or were there parts where you got confused and/or bored? Were there plot holes?

Once I get their feedback, I do a complete revision. In the early drafts, this can mean whole characters or chapters get dropped, added, or rearranged. Then I send it out again to different beta readers. Since all three of my books so far have been mysteries, it is important to me that my beta readers not know how the book ends before they start. I hate books/movies where I can see how it's going to end halfway through. I'll specifically ask them when they figured out how it was going to end. My goal is that when they discover the plot twist, it will make perfect sense to them and they'll think "how did I not see this coming?"

If I'm having a particular problem, I might consult some experts. For example, in my last book, I was continually struggling with a character who had a Bronx accent. I consulted the Writer-in-Residence here in London, who is a professional writer made available through the university and library.

For some reason, my magic number seems to be six. That is, it takes me six complete drafts before it's ready to be published. There are major changes in the first three drafts, but (hopefully) by the time I get to the last round of edits, I'm just making slight changes in wording and grammar. I'll then get a draft printed copy to review, because no matter how many times I've reviewed it on the computer, I'll find something in the print version.

E.A. wrote: "I use a few different groups to help me edit. I find they all provide very different, but equally valuable, input as I navigate my way to the final product."

Nice process. We do a similar thing in my writing group. Your approach to the Beta folks is spot-on. An . . . SPEAKIN' AH DUH BRONXXX!! WHADDAYA WANNA KNOE?

My editor is my wife, who has 20+ years as an editor in publishing. She does all my preliminary editing and proofing. However, I recently ran into someone I used to work with when I was a journalist and she is now doing freelance proofing for publishing houses. So with my next book, I'll be hiring her.

Let us know how you like your new editor. It is always good for an author to have a list of good editors to choose from.

I'm new to this group. I've self-published two (2) books. The first book, I completed years ago (2008) and knew that it needed a professional editor involved. At that time, my goal wasn't to be a full-time writer. I wasn't in a hurry and took a "wait and see" attitude. Over the years, I would pick the manuscript back up, edit it again, and then shelve it for later.

Then, in 2014, after attending my first meeting at a networking group in Orange County, to my surprise, I learned that many in attendance were self-published authors and copy editors. I shared my secret passion of writing fiction novels with the group and they urged me to take it to the next level. To me, I never once thought about proceeding without an editor. I bit the bullet, saved the extra cash to hire one of the group members (Lynette Smith) who is awesome and dove in. The face to face time, and after developing a relationship with her, I felt motivated to move forward.

After meeting with her and going through the process of self-publishing, like I'm sure most of you have, I've developed a group of people I utilize and now consider them as part of my team. My background was from Corporate America where I was required to write daily. Those writings included multi-page documents detailing either insurance claims (some over 100 pages) or procedure manuals in the banking industry. It was standard operating procedures for our management team to review and edit each other's reports as they would ultimately become part of the investigative work product that was discoverable. After our review process, the reports were sent to Corporate to be heard. Given this background, I assumed that hiring an editor was the next logical step. I felt comfortable and accustomed to having other eyes in the loop before it was done.

Given the literal thousands of reports I've written over the years, and now fortunate enough to have self-published two books, I highly recommend the use of a professional editor. Also, I suggest you save the pennies and don't cut the corners here. Having a fresh set of eyes review your work is vital. In my opinion, that last step takes your work product to an entirely new "professional" level. It gives you the best opportunity to put your best effort forward for literally the world to see.

Paula wrote: ..."

True story. I'm a wacko about using action verbs. When I speak to writing groups, mentor new writers, or trade critiques in a critique group, I'm constantly harping on not relying on crutch words and avoiding mundane verbs.

So I think I'm pretty hot stuff and above all that editing crap, right? Coz I know it all, already.

Got a manuscript back from a publisher's editor, who said I should use more action verbs.

I said, "WTF?"

Sure enough, when I did a word search for just, sat, walked, nodded, took, turned, pulled, thought, stepped, felt, and all the other words I admonish people for using, I found hundreds of examples where I'd taken short cuts and used the easy word.

Moral of the story: Use an editor, whether you pay for it, or your Momma knows grammar and she'll do it for you, or you have an independent publisher.