The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I know I write this every week, but still loving it!!!

Questions/Comments:

One, how would you describe Charley Hexam? And why is he a bit ashamed of Lizzie? Does he remind you of another Dickens' character, one that we recently read? Why do you think Charley dislikes Eugene Wrayburn?

Two, why is Lizzie Hexam so reluctant to educate herself? Why doesn't she want to live far from the river? Why do you think she always places herself with people who rely upon her?

Three, as an English teacher, Miss Peecher's examinations of Mary Jane on grammar made me laugh.

Four, describe Jenny Wren (the person of the house). What does she do for a living? And what did you make of her repeated talk during her lessons at the top of the counting house: "Come up and be dead! Come up and be dead."

Five, yet again, I adore Eugene Wrayburn, and loved the way he interacted with Lizzie. He obviously loves her and wants to bring her up in the world. What does he say about Lizzie having "false pride"? How is he trying to help Lizzie?

Six, Veneerings is asked to seek a Parliament position as MP. What do you think Dickens' main point was in that chapter?

Seven, we finally know why the Lammle's are working on Georgiana Podsnap. Although initially looked at as shy and awkward, what is Fascination Fledgeby really like? Why does he go to the counting house, and who is Riah?

Charley Hexam reminded me a little of Pip in GE. He wants his sister to advance as well, more for his own sake than for hers.
Lizzie is a very good-hearted person who wants to help others and not be the center of attention herself.
I was also wondering why Charley dislikes Eugene so much. On the one hand, he does not like the way of life Eugene is leading without really working. He ridicules Eugene's profession. On the other hand, I guess he is just protective of his sister. He is well aware that he has to thank her for his advancement.
I was actually wondering whether maybe Mr. Headstone might fall in love with Lizzie. He is obviously not in love with Ms Peecher.

I was curious about the connection between Jenny and the Hexam's. It was said that she was the grandchild of the old man whose bills were on the walls of Hexam's home. So either they rented from him or had other sorts of debts from him, but I am really wondering about that connection and whether it will (in a Dickensian way) have a connection at the end of the novel to the other plots.

Some of you had already mentioned it in the previous threads that you were reminded of Sidney Carton by Eugen Wrayburn. Now I got that feeling as well. Eugene does not really know what to do with his life and it seems that Lizzie gives it the meaning he was looking for. It seems very kind of him that he offers Lizzie and Jenny to be their teacher.

Jenny is a very special character and I think she will be one of those who stick. Despite her disabilities she seems to be very strong and even keeps control over her father. It is maybe a little like Nell in TOCS with a mixture of the Marchioness.
She even works hard to make her living by making dresses for dolls.

The Veneerings going for Parliament is once again social criticism by Dickens. I still remember the part about the elections in PP in which the votes were purchased.
Here it seems that with the right connections and the right money at the right places it is no problem to get into the House of Commons without actually really having a connection to the voters in order to be elected.

Fledgeby seems to be a quite mean, and money-oriented guy. The description of his father marrying his mother who could not pay her debts reminded me very much of Quilp in TOCS. Funnily his mother is also a cousin of Lord Snigsworth like Twemlow.

Fledgeby seems to own the counting house in which Riah works. I did not like his attitude very much towards the little "roof society". I just cannot warm up to him. The same applies to the Lammles who are so scheming and pretending. However, it was kind of funny how the Lammle's convered with each other on behalf of Fledgeby and Georgiana, but I hope that Georgiana is not falling for this whole charade.

Great names, Mr Headstone & Miss Peecher. And I loved the little mention of how Mary Jane raises her hand every time she has something to say.

I thought the bills on the wall of the Hexam's old house were notices about people who drowned. And maybe Gaffer did take something from Jenny's grandfather. While I don't think Gaffer killed anyone, taking money or other belongings found on dead people in the river seemed to be part of the watermen's income. But Lizzie didn't like that part of it. So she may feel she owes something to Jenny.

I think Eugene offered to pay for a teacher of the same age and sex as Lizzie, not to do it himself. He'd probably like to , but realizes it wouldn't be proper.

The election chapter reminded me of current campaigns, the main thing is to get in a carriage (or plane or bus today) and head off in all directions. And at the end of the day it's all about who has the money to buy the seat.

I found the chapter with the Lammles playing Cupid very funny, how they were using the young couple as puppets and putting words into their mouths. I thought at first that Fledgeby (reminds me of "fledgling" , a bird barely out of the nest) was also an innocent being used by them. But it turns out he is greedy and conniving, just no good at doing his own wooing.

I think I read somewhere that Dickens deliberately put a "good" Jew in this book because of all the flak he got after creating the "bad" Jew Fagin.

Robin,
Thanks for clarifying that with Eugene. I misread that paragraph...he was first talking about paying someone some shillings and the later argued that if it was him as a teacher that would be another thing... However, he definitely would like to be her teacher ;-)

Thanks also for the hint about the bills in Hexam's home. I had quite forgotten them, but your explanation makes absolutely sense.

With regards to Fledgeby, I had the same impression. At first I considered him also more of an innocent "victim" of the Lammles' schemes, but in chapter 5 he really turned into a mean, greedy character.

Hedi wrote: "Robin,
Thanks for clarifying that with Eugene. I misread that paragraph...he was first talking about paying someone some shillings and the later argued that if it was him as a teacher that would be..."

The only reason I have some idea about "the bills" (which may still not be accurate) is that I ended up rereading the whole first five chapters or so and taking notes because I was so confused about the different characters and their histories.

Lynnm wrote: "I know I write this every week, but still loving it!!!

Questions/Comments:

One, how would you describe Charley Hexam? And why is he a bit ashamed of Lizzie? Does he remind you of another Dickens'..."

Honestly, I am not loving it.

This one is just "jumping the shark" for me, although I will finish it.

The pace is just so uneven. There are so many characters. And I don't like any of them, or care what happens to them. But there are brilliant moments all over the place.

This is the first time I have found Dickens off his game.

He was struggling with health issues, celebrity status, money management, divorce....

Back in those days, a rock star like Dickens did not have the star maker machinery behind him to support this. And his fame and fortune came to him relatively late in life. He really was, in my opinion, the first international, crossover entertainment superstar. He took on full control of his business interests, while never slacking on the talent end. He was not a perfect guy. But he never had a public meltdown. He was passionate about his brand. He embraced new technology. He stayed true to his craft.

So I'm cutting him some slack!

Interesting, I don't feel that way about this book. I think he is at the top of his game. In a way he was moving forward with more complex plots, similar to modern TV shows vs those on the 1950s that had one story. His readers were used to the format by now. But that's just my opinion. The one I thought was a "phoning it in" book (before phones!) was Hard Times.

I would say it's not that the pace is uneven but that it's varied. He jumps between tragedy, comedy, pathos. I always think of that as "Shakespearean". And I like several of the characters - Eugene and Mortimer, Lizzie (although she's got the self-sacrificing Dickens heroine thing going on), Jenny Wren, Twemlow. And some who I wouldn't like as persons make great reading, such as the deceitfulness of the Lammles.

But your point is valid, Dickens wasn't well and was always writing under deadlines and for the money.

Hedi wrote: "Charley Hexam reminded me a little of Pip in GE. He wants his sister to advance as well, more for his own sake than for hers.
Lizzie is a very good-hearted person who wants to help others and not b..."

That is who I was thinking of when reading about Charley: Pip. Same embarrassment of where he comes from, etc.

And I wonder why Charley doesn't like Eugene as well. You would think that since he is embarrassed by his sister's position that someone like Eugene being interested in her would be a positive. Or maybe it is just jealousy? As a brother, he doesn't want any man near Lizzie? Or maybe he has his own plans for Lizzie?

Shannon - I see your points, but most of Dickens' books are a bit disjointed because of the way they are published.

He may have been struggling with a lot of things, but I don't see it affecting his art. In fact, OMF is far more upbeat and humorous than some of his other later novels.

But, everyone interprets and sees novels differently. And that's good!

I'm also really enjoying this novel, however finding it hard to keep track of all the story lines, probably more because I am reading several novels at once! I've often wondered if Dickens could make his novels more complex as, with serialization and more limited access to books, people were more likely to read each section several times over while waiting for the next instalment.

I was under the impression that Riah is in fact the teacher for Jenny and Lizzie, but may have misunderstood.

Frances - Riah is their tutor, but his main occupation is managing Fledgeby's counting house.

But is he the tutor that Eugene arranged? I don't think we were told that.

I assumed he was from the set up and the discussion

I was struck by Jenny's memory of what seemed to be angels carrying her up into the air. I have to wonder if this isn't foreshadowing. I was quite surprised by her relationship with her father. I wonder at what point she had to begin parenting him.

Renee wrote: "I was struck by Jenny's memory of what seemed to be angels carrying her up into the air. I have to wonder if this isn't foreshadowing. I was quite surprised by her relationship with her father. I w..."

Jenny's character is a sympathetic character: her physical pain, her father's alcoholism. And she isn't that old - I think it is about 14-15 years old?

She has an amazing ability to see right into a person, and know what they are about. She seems to like Eugene, which gives him a good character reference.

I hope it isn't foreshadowing, but knowing Dickens and his need to kill off characters, it could be.