Catholic Thought discussion

In the first paragraph on the Second Mansions, Teresa mentions something that I think all of us on Goodreads – Catholic Thought have in common and that is, “…most of us never get tired of the multitude of books that deal with matters of the soul” (pg 55, Mirabai Starr edition). I really like the fact that Teresa is such an avid reader; it gives me something I can easily relate to. What I also like about Teresa is that she is writing about her experience in the castle while giving us instructions. The reader can see that Teresa knows the pitfalls and advances that can be made in each room, because she has experienced them. Her advice is concrete, “Remember: all you have to do as you begin to cultivate the practice of prayer is to prepare yourself with sincere effort and intent to bring your will into harmony with the will of God.” (pg 61, Mirabai Starr), and her examples are specific, “…his voice reaches us through words spoken by good people, through listening to spiritual talks, and reading sacred literature.”(pg. 57, Mirabai Starr). She is aware of our human failings and gives us encouragement by telling us that if we fall we are not to be discouraged, we are to keep walking the path. Teresa is not telling us what she believes and thinks what things are like, instead she is telling us what they are (methodical steps which give certain results) because she has experienced them. Teresa seems to be a practical person, and to me this makes her a very approachable saint.

The Second Mansion is also the room where the devil is working overtime and tempting us to return our focus back to worldly matters. This is where I need to remember to call on Mary and the Saints to help me focus on prayer and God. Besides attending adoration on a weekly basis, my best prayer times have been in the early morning when I have set aside one hour of scripture reading and prayer while sitting at my desk at home. I like to pray before daily life gets a chance to clutter up my mind. What are everyone else’s prayer routines and what has worked best for you?

I find her writing style a little rambling. It almost seems as if one has to make a synopsis of every paragraph to extract what the essence is.

I downloaded a copy for this discussion rather than using my old hard copy. I thought a different translation might open new insights for me. This one seems so much shorter than my hard copy. I should pull out the hard copy and compare.

Susan Margaret wrote: "In the first paragraph on the Second Mansions, Teresa mentions something that I think all of us on Goodreads – Catholic Thought have in common and that is, “…most of us never get tired of the multi..."

I'm amazed at how learned she is. I don't know the details of her biography; how did she become so well read and a fine writer for a woman of her age. It's a rare woman in her times that even got to go to school, let alone be so exceptional.

Kerstin wrote: "I find her writing style a little rambling. It almost seems as if one has to make a synopsis of every paragraph to extract what the essence is."

Kerstin, if I may speculate, I think what you're having trouble with is St. Theresa's poeticism. She writes like a poet. So much of what she says is in analogies, similes, and metaphors, and therefore it's not direct. And to be fair to St. Theresa, the subject matter doesn't lend itself to direct speech. Such spirituality is difficult to express, and one has to grasp for comparisons. I could be wrong. I could also be the translation.

For me, I had similar issues at the beginning. But over time her style has worked its way into my head. I'm fifteen pages from the end, and her writing seems quite logical and conversive.

Matthew in the Introduction section mentioned he felt he was mostly in the first mansion. I would have to say for me—and I bet most of us here—are in the second mansion. In the 2nd paragraph is where she describes those people:

“In this part of the castle are found souls which. have begun to practise prayer; they realize the importance of their not remaining in the first mansions, yet often lack determination to quit their present condition by avoiding occasions of sin, which is a very perilous state to be in. However, it is a great grace that they should sometimes make good their escape from the vipers and poisonous creatures around them and should understand the need of avoiding them. In some way these souls suffer a great deal more than those in the first mansions, although not in such danger, as they begin to understand their peril and there are great hopes of their entering farther into the castle. I say that they suffer a great deal more, for those in an earlier stage are like deaf-mutes and are not so distressed at being unable to speak, while the others, who can hear but cannot talk, find it much harder. At the same time, it is better not to be deaf, and a decided advantage to hear what is said to us.”

Yes that probably describes me. I pray and understand the condition of my sins, and understand the need to avoid them, but I can’t say I break free of them often. She goes on in the next paragraph to understand the psychology of me and those like me:

“These souls hear our Lord calling them, for as they approach nearer to where His Majesty dwells He proves a loving Neighbour, though they may still be engaged in the amusements and business, the pleasures and vanities of this world. While in this state we continually fall into sin and rise again, for the creatures amongst whom we dwell are so venomous, so vicious, and so dangerous, that it is almost impossible to avoid being tripped up by them. Yet such are the pity and compassion of this Lord of ours, so desirous is He that we should seek Him and enjoy His company, that in one way or another He never ceases calling us to Him. So sweet is His voice, that the poor soul is disconsolate at being unable to follow His bidding at once, and therefore, as I said, suffers more than if it could not hear Him.”

Though I hear our Lord, we are just too wrapped up in the business and amusements of this world, like the Super Bowl. You would think that watching the Super Bowl would be relatively innocuous but it would amaze how many little sins will happen during the course of a Super Bowl party: the language, the bad thoughts, the gambling, the pleasure of watching someone lose, etc. All venial sins, I’m sure, but sins nonetheless sins which pull you away from elevating the soul.

Manny wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I find her writing style a little rambling. It almost seems as if one has to make a synopsis of every paragraph to extract what the essence is."

Such spirituality is difficult to express, and one has to grasp for comparisons. I could be wrong. I could also be the translation. ."

That's what I am thinking. This is such a towering work on spirituality that there must be so much more than what I am seeing at this first reading. And translations are always a factor, no question.

I also think this second mansion describes me, which is pretty sad considering how many decades I have been at this spiritual journey.

I too am at the second mansion. I am thinking I could be a lot further along, if I were locked up in a convent. ;-)

There are just as many opportunities to turn from Christ in a convent as outside one; the temptations just take different guises. I know, I was in one for a number of years. LOL

Susan Margaret wrote: "In the first paragraph on the Second Mansions, Teresa mentions something that I think all of us on Goodreads – Catholic Thought have in common and that is, “…most of us never get tired of the multi..."

As we prepare for Lent, I am scrutinizing my prayer life daily. I agree with you, Susan, that if I do not get my prayer in before life starts, I feel overwhelmed and defeated. If I prayer at the beginning of my day, I feel rejuvenated in the Lord throughout my day. I can recognize the grace God gives me and then will try to make it a point to pray in the mornings. At times, that has worked for me and I truly feel connected to God's will but in many cases I feel like I am just following a routine. I wake up in the morning, my heart is not into saying a prayer, I get out my Magnificat and stumble through the words (at times rushing through words to get through prayer time faster so I can get started on my day), and then not talk to God until I go to sleep.

I work in technology and I can easily get sucked into the vacuum that is the internet. If the superbowl can cause many venial sins that we are not aware of, as Manny says, then the internet can cause millions. It is like having access to watch the superbowl every single day while getting my job done. I want to be better for God. I want what He wants for me. I want to live His will but I am not aware of self and I get caught in worldly traps of wanting to play video games or idle chat with people who do not share nor want to share any of my beliefs.

I am thinking of setting up an alarm or warning system that tells me midway through my morning, at lunch, midway through my afternoon, before and after dinner and at bed time that will remind me of my need for Jesus. If I only take one thing away from this book, please Lord, let the importance of prayer sink into my thick skull.

Peyton Manning was asked if he was going to retire after the game and he responded with my interpretation of what is important to him stated in order: 1. Family 2. Endorsements/money 3. God

Now I am not bringing this up to judge him but to help me look inward and see what is most important to me. I know what I would want the order to be: 1. God 2. Wife 3. Children 4. Others

I think this is where my motivation can come from. If I want God to be first, then I need to start walking the walk and putting Him first. And that means more prayer time.

Irene wrote: "There are just as many opportunities to turn from Christ in a convent as outside one; the temptations just take different guises. I know, I was in one for a number of years. LOL"

Oh my gosh! What order are you?

Matthew wrote: "I am thinking of setting up an alarm or warning system that tells me midway through my morning, at lunch, midway through my afternoon, before and after dinner and at bed time that will remind me of my need for Jesus...."

Matthew, I like your are idea about setting an alarm. It would be like church bells ringing reminding you to pray. You gave me a good idea. Thank you, I think I will follow your suggestion.

Sometimes it is so easy to fall. I will pray in the morning and then later in the day I may say or think something uncharitable. But I have to give myself some credit, at least I am recognizing that I made an error. In the past I would not have realized this.

I am reading the version translated by E. Allison Peers

There are two points/paragraphs that really stood out to me. On page 27 she says, "Ah, my Lord! It is here that we need of Thine aid, without which we can do nothing. Of Thy mercy, allow not this soul to be deluded and led astray when its journey is but begun..." and continues on with great advice and ends with, "for he is going forth to fight with all the devils and there are no better weapons than the Cross." Wow! A prayer and advice all wrapped up in one. The last paragraph at the end of page 30 and into page 31, St. Theresa states, "It is absurd to think that we can enter Heaven without first entering our own souls-- without getting to know ourselves, and reflecting upon the wretchedness of our nature and what we owe to God, and continually imploring His mercy." This is something to meditate on during Lent don't you all think?

To answer Susan's question regarding prayer routine. In the mornings we pray the blessing over our food, morning prayer, allegiance prayer, prayer for the Pope and to our Guardian Angel. I try my best to pray the rosary in the evening and the Divine Mercy during the 3:00 hour. In the evening my youngest son and I pray to our Guardian Angels and three Hail Mary's. I have yet to incorporate a quiet time to spend with Our Lord outside of Adoration. It is difficult sometimes when our children need me or my husband. I do have reminders set on my phone...but sometimes it just does not happen. Something will need to change, or I just need to be patient and content (which is hard because I always feel like I could be doing more) that I am doing as much as I can in this moment in my life and when the opportunity opens for me to have that quiet time with the Lord I will recognize it and begin some much needed prayer time. What my focus is now at this stage of life is forming our children in the faith.

There is an app for that!
I use a 'mindfulness bell' app that you can set for whenever you want during the day, as frequently as you wish, a a nice chime bell goes off. For me it is reminder to just recenter back to God for a few minutes when I hear it...

Susan Margaret wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I am thinking of setting up an alarm or warning system that tells me midway through my morning, at lunch, midway through my afternoon, before and after dinner and at bed time that w..."

Actually on my Blackberry I set up an alarm for 3 PM every day, the hour of Christ's death. When it goes off it reminds me to make holy the moment and say a quick prayer. It's rather difficult however if I'm in a meeting at work.

Melissa wrote: "I am reading the version translated by E. Allison Peers

The last paragraph at the end of page 30 and into page 31, St. Theresa states, "It is absurd to think that we can enter Heaven without first entering our own souls-- without getting to know ourselves, and reflecting upon the wretchedness of our nature and what we owe to God, and continually imploring His mercy." This is something to meditate on during Lent don't you all think?"

Yes, and I've been thinking about this even before reading Interior Castle. The very brokenness of my humanity, which is due to falling into sin, causes me to search out and grasp for God. Could it be that's why God created us as sinful beings? I know he doesn't like us falling into sin, but He is thrilled when we return. The resolution of our brokenness requires us to need God. When i particularly feel my brokenness, i am way more humble and prayful. In contrast when I'm acting perfectly (or think I am) I tend toward a pride. I think I've seen this somewhere as a complicated theological idea, but i don't recall where.

Manny wrote: " Could it be that's why God created us as sinful beings? "

Manny, there is an error that snuck in here - God did not create us as sinful beings.

Here is how it was explained to me:
God is all good, and therefore all Creation is good. And with man, he is very good as we read in Genesis. Sin entered into the world with the fall. In baptism we are freed from all sin. However, we do have free will, and therefore we can and do commit actual sins. These sins cloak our inner goodness and distort us. This is what we mean by 'broken humanity.' When we live the Christian life and frequent the sacraments - after all, we can't do this on our own! - we free ourselves from these debilitating cloaks and our true selves begin to emerge.

Kerstin wrote: "Manny wrote: " Could it be that's why God created us as sinful beings? "

Manny, there is an error that snuck in here - God did not create us as sinful beings.

Here is how it was explained to me: ..."

That's true Kerstin. You're right. Sometimes I over think things.

Have to admit that on my first read of this section I found it rambling as well. When I read it a second time, in a more patient manner, I found it to be practical and uplifting. I found five passages which I highlighted for future reference but thought that the following quote give us great hope especially in this Year of Mercy. “If, then, you sometimes fall, do not lose heart, or cease striving to make progress, for even out of your fall God will bring good,”

On a different note, reading the thoughts of the people in this group I feel that this may be a group that helps in my quest to, "to associate with others who are walking in the right way: to mix, not only with those whom he sees in the rooms where he himself is, but with those whom he knows to have entered the rooms nearer the centre, for they will be of great help to him ”

Andy wrote: ".On a different note, reading the thoughts of the people in this group I feel that this may be a group that helps in my quest to, "to associate with others who are walking in the right wa."
I agree Andy, we can help each other along the way.

Susan Margaret wrote: "In the first paragraph on the Second Mansions, Teresa mentions something that I think all of us on Goodreads – Catholic Thought have in common and that is, “…most of us never get tired of the multi..."

So many books Teresa read and found meaningful were hunted down-often burned-in her lifetime by the Inquisition.I got hold of an English translation of the Third Spiritual Alphabet by Francisco De Osuna which was originally on their 'hit list'.I'm not sure where the first and second 'Spiritual Alphabets' got to but this is a very weighty book in it's own right.I wonder if anyone has read it?I've gifted mine to our local Dominican sisters and hope eventually to have someone to discuss it with.One thing's for sure,it will take some time to read and dijest.

Have never read that one. Do you know why it was ban?

I first heard this book mentioned in the Spanish mini series "Teresa De Jesus"about the life of St Teresa of Avila, which starred Concha Velasco as Teresa.
In episode one,several of Teresa's books had to be burnt, on the general order of Fernando de Valdés,then the Archbishop of Seville and Inquisitor General.
I have since found out that the Inquisitor had published an "Index of Forbidden books" in 1559.Among them were some of the works of Erasmus, Louis of Granada,Saint Francisco de Borja,Juan de Ávila and Francisco De Osuna.
All these authors were very popular and very influential in their day but many were regarded as heterodox-ie having opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position.I have also noticed that many of them were in correspondence with each other which I personally think may have made the Inquisition uneasy.Might they have represented a new 'power base', to rival Rome? That's my best guess on why the books were banned,but it is only based on what I have gleaned so far.Our Spanish members may know more.
What fascinated me about The Third Spiritual Alphabet-were some of the concepts that de Osuna introduced Teresa to,for example,he mentions the heart as being like 'a castle' which must be kept well guarded.I have found a thought-provoking reflection on what Teresa learned from Francesco De Osuna on www.meditationsfromcarmel.com hopefully this link will open it up: :http://www.meditationsfromcarmel.com/...

In the footnotes of my E. Allison Peers translation Osuna and his book are cited in the third chapter of the fourth mansion. It's online, so you can read it here:
http://www.catholictreasury.info/book...

Osuna also has a Wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis...

Manny wrote: "In the footnotes of my E. Allison Peers translation Osuna and his book are cited in the third chapter of the fourth mansion. It's online, so you can read it here:
http://www.catholictreasury.info/b..."

Thank you,Manny.I had found the wikipedia but was unfamiliar with the Catholic treasury site-nice footnotes! :)