Our Shared Shelf discussion
Feb—The Color Purple (2016)
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Finished the Book
I enjoyed reading the book. It has been on my 'to read' pile for a number of years now, since I watched the movie. I began reading it on Friday evening and finished it by Saturday afternoon. I liked the exploration of sexuality, the breaking of social norms, the reversal of gender roles, and of course the themes of oppression of women and race. I also liked the format of the story being letters to/from God, Celie and Nettie.I am going to start a thread on gender roles and another on sexuality
It was rather a slow reading for me, since I really like epistolary novels, but I enjoyed it at the same time I was trying to truly understand what was depicted in the book. I would've liked the letters to have dates, because it was difficult for me to realize how much time had passed and I was kinda lost in that aspect.
What I liked the most about this book, besides the recognition of difficult topics such as rape and incest, was the transition that the main character had through the story: she went from being really passive to understand that her sisters (being her actual sister and her friends and lover) were there to support her and that it had to be the other way around too. In the end I was satisfied when she was able to stand up for herself and for the ones she loved.
When I finished this morning, I realized that I love the book. Not so clear to me as I was listening to it (btw: recommend greatly the narration by the author) because it deals with uncomfortable topics. But looking back, I love the philosophy and the cultures described, and I love the surprises it gave me :-)
It was a bit slow for me at the start, it took a few pages to get in to the writing style. Once I got into it, I thought the writing style fit the story really well. I think the whole book was really powerful and insightful into a different time and culture. It is amazing how far society has come in the last 100 years, and hopefully we will keep moving towards full equality!
I thought it was a really quick read and I enjoyed it. I was a little worried at first about the epistolary format, but I think it really captured that she had no one else to talk to. And, of course, I was all torn up that she might never see Nettie again!I also liked how the book was able to explore different women's experiences throughout the south. This isn't something I'm very familiar with, but I thought that it showed how everyone was going through the same things but differently.
And I love the idea of the title. Just thinking about the nature of religion and sexuality makes me want to read it all over again.
When I finished the book I just can belive how great is the book. In fact this is one of the best´s books that I ever read. Should be called Letters for God, because is a story about freedom and fate! Celie never give up! She fight for what she belive. And I did like the format of the book. It´s intimist just like that.
I read this book for this first time in my life two years ago and afterward I was so upset that I had waited so long. This book blew my mind! It changed a lot about how I view the world a feminism. One of the things I greatly appreciated from this book was how much is taught me about the experiences black women endured and continue to endure. I am the whites of white and came from an incredibly small white community. I truly cannot put into words how valuable reading this book was for me. Since reading it, I have tried to seek out more books that can open me up to the lives of other women from different cultures and races (recommendations welcomed!). One of my favorite aspects of this book was how it discussed the lives of many different women and how those lives intersected and effected one another, as well as their relationships and love for each other. This will be a book I read over and over again throughout my life!
I thought the book was amazing! It makes you think a lot about racial issues lingering to the present, about the situation in Africa, about our human nature to distrust and fear what's slightly different from ourselves. And, related to our main subject, sexsism, I just love the way the book shows there are many stigmas both women and men must endure, how both feel the social pressure to behave in a certain way, to act like "everyone" else expect you to. Also, it shockingly depicts the indifference society has towards problematic issues as abuse and sexuality, present even in today's society.
I just finished this book and loved it from start to finish, though it certainly wasn't easy listening (I chose the audiobook narrated by the author) at times. This is the sort of book I would usually steer clear of - uncomfortable subjects told through an epistolary format is not something I would normally chose, even though I was fully aware of how critically acclaimed the novel is. Although the subjects it touches on are very serious, the book is full of warmth and humour, and I kept bursting out laughing when I was listening to it. I am so glad this group prompted me to get hold of it and read it, and I am now considering reading the follow-up about Tashi, Possessing the Secret of Joy, even though it seems to mainly focus on gender mutilation...
This is the second time I have read "The Color Purple" and it did not disappoint. In fact I think I got more from the book the second time around. I love the character of Celie. She begins as so fragile and broken, yet evolves into such a strong character at the end of the story. The story does travel into very uncomfortable material but Walker is talking about topics that should be covered -- she is a fearless writer! I loved how she used the letter writing motif in the story to give both Celie and Nettie voices as the story progressed even if those voices were not heard until the end. It is hard not to like the majority of the female characters in the novel as they are all so very different and change as the story goes on. I appreciate Mariana's observations that: "it shockingly depicts the indifference society has towards problematic issues as abuse and sexuality..." That is a truth that we still see much of today in different cultures and countries.
Overall I thought it was a great second pick for our book club.
First I gave this book four stars but a few minutes later I found myself still thinking about it and missing the characters so I had to come back and give the book a five. :) It is without a doubt one of my favourites.I have to agree with all the others on this thread about what was so great about The Color Purple. What I loved the most was how someone so abused and oppressed as Celie came to find independence and talent within after getting the love and support we all deserve in life. It was great to see her - and most of the other characters - transform and find her true self as the story went on. She pieced herself together bit by bit, starting out small. Not much unlike those pants that made her a self sufficient business woman.
I began to read this book but found it extremely difficult with the dialect. I decided to start again and found it a lot easier the second time. I gave this book 3 stars because although I enjoyed the book it didn't really provoke too many ideas or feelings in me. It was difficult to read about the horrors Celie had faced and the hard life of many of the characters but I felt a lot of issues were slightly skimmed over and I felt near the end that I was losing interest. I did give the three stars though because of the style of writing, the hardships and topics covered and also the way that men were often not named which was interesting to me. I love reading everyone else's thoughts!
I finished today, and I absolutely loved it. Like others have said above, I'm somewhat upset that it took me this long to pick it up! It's been on my TBR list forever, so thanks to Our Shared Shelf for giving me the motivation.
I'm a fan of epistolary novels, and though the dialect was difficult to read at times, it made for more powerful storytelling. So many complex issues were addressed in such a compelling way.
I'm a fan of epistolary novels, and though the dialect was difficult to read at times, it made for more powerful storytelling. So many complex issues were addressed in such a compelling way.
I was shocked how much I liked this book. The way it was written was wonderful. I could hear the characters talking in my head. I am really looking forward to watching the movie this weekend. It is amazing the things that women dealt with in the past and had no way of fighting against. And the fact that these women improved their lives through the adversity was wonderful and heartwarming.
Wow. Just wow. As a librarian I know why this book is banned/challenged every year. The style was a bit tricky, as other people have mentioned, but I eventually got the flow. I really enjoyed how the women, for the most part, built each other up instead of tear each other down. Even when Shug left Celie, it was when Celie was self-sufficient, left her husband, etc. Even Sofia had an inner strength that, yes, got her into a lot of trouble, but it was hers.
This book had been sitting on book my shelf for years & I never quite got around to reading it because I thought it would be a hard, harrowing read. Turns out this book is brilliant. Walkers prose makes it an easy, fast read. She takes you along with her, deep inside the psyche of Celie. You feel every depth of despair & hopelessness & every small ray of hope. You can taste the oppression of the times. Will definitely be reading more Alice Walker.
I finished the book yesterday on my lunch break and then didn't have time to write a review, which kind of made me crazy! I always try to review the books right after I finish them, because I feel like my thoughts are best, and I've got that hum of energy in my body when I finish a good book.I'm really glad this was picked as February's book. I had heard the name before, and recognized the name, just from hearing it, but I knew nothing about it.
It was a wonderful read. I particularly liked the style of writing, it felt just like Celie was talking to you and telling you her story while we sat on a porch. I really loved the way the different characters evolved over time. I thought it was really neat how Mr.______'s character actually kind of grew up over time.
I was a bit surprised by how much the different characters seemed to swap, and change their sexual partners/loves. Was that common at the time? I wasn't surprised as in shocked, or outraged or anything, I just have never read anything where so many of the characters were doing that.
I didn't expect so many different ideas to all be in this book- god, and women's rights, and racism, and the right to love who you want, whether they are a man or a woman. I love how Ms. Walker has so many different ideas all working together, and nothing seems forced, or like it doesn't fit.
I loved Celie's character. She was so strong. Even when she thought she was weak, and everyone else thought she was weak, she was still strong. I loved hearing her voice leap off the page.
I very much loved this book and can't wait to recommend it to others.
I also finished it yesterday. I read it in Portuguese, an early edition that belonged to my grandmother, from 1986. So neat!Here's my review of it:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
There are so many topics to be discussed about this book that I think I'll have a hard time focusing only on feminism, tbh...
I truly enjoyed this book. This was such a powerful, tragic yet heartwarming story. It truly is a story of triumph and redemption. I have learned very much from reading this book. A powerful book everyone should read in their lifetime!
Finished my re-read yesterday and found it equally as wonderful as the first time. I realized I forgot many things from my first read, but I liked that I was surprised and I also noticed some things I didn't before (must be because I was paying more attention to issues addressed in this group). Still one of my favorites.
I absolutely loved this book. I found the dialect took some getting used to, but loved the way it was done and thought it was fantastic to really hear the characters' voices.It was pretty heartbreaking and tough to take at points, and I am absolutely stunned I've managed to live for 25 years without reading it. One of the most incisive, insightful, touching, vivid and life-changing books I've ever read.
I loved that my edition also had a forward by Alice Walker written 25 years post publication, where she pointed out that it's surprising that not much gets said about what the book has to say about God, spirituality and the 'God Image' as Jung would call it. She highlights that, after all, the first words of the protagonist are 'dear God' and how all growth in the novel changes the characters' relationships with God.
A really fantastic second pick as well for a feminist book club touching on feminism as experienced by different cultures and ethnicities.
I also loved the fact it looked at the differences in African American culture in the South versus Africa.
I was on the underground when I read the ending and tears were literally rolling down my face. I feel like Celie, like Hamlet, is one of those characters who, once you've read, you can't forget, and everyone everywhere has so much to gain by reading this book.
I gave it five stars, but would give it more if I could. Style, flair, characterisation, plot, subject matter, themes, everything… I thought it was beautiful, raw, and absolutely wonderful. Bizarrely uplifting, too, despite the trials Celie and other characters faced.
So much love!!!!! <3 xoxo
The dialect and writing style was pretty difficult to get used to at first but I found it getting easier and easier to read, it was so real and honest and engaging. Certainly one of the most upsetting books I've read. The themes of abuse and violence were written in a very raw way and I absolutely loved the strength of the female characters despite all of this. I think it's a book that will stick with me for a lifetime, it moved me greatly.
I chose to read in portuguese, it was okay, now I finished reading in english and the dialect is a bit hard to understand but the book is amazing.
It was hard to read and not make comparisons with people of color in Brazil, here slavery was abolished in 1888, 25 years later than the US and there's still a lot of racism going on even though 54% of the population is black.
When Alice talks about abuse and violence, you can identify with Cellie and feel what she feels and really understand whats going on in her ehad even if you don't agree with that. The love between her and Shug is tender and written in a gentle way, just like love really is, a natural thing (doesn't matter if it is between man/woman - man/man - woman/woman).
It's a book full of lessons about sisterhood, strong women and religion, everyone should read it once in their lives, it's important that we realize what people of color faced and still face every day in our society.
It was hard to read and not make comparisons with people of color in Brazil, here slavery was abolished in 1888, 25 years later than the US and there's still a lot of racism going on even though 54% of the population is black.
When Alice talks about abuse and violence, you can identify with Cellie and feel what she feels and really understand whats going on in her ehad even if you don't agree with that. The love between her and Shug is tender and written in a gentle way, just like love really is, a natural thing (doesn't matter if it is between man/woman - man/man - woman/woman).
It's a book full of lessons about sisterhood, strong women and religion, everyone should read it once in their lives, it's important that we realize what people of color faced and still face every day in our society.
This book is very eye opening. I have to say though, it's not one of my favorites. Maybe it's just a little too hard to relate? I don't know. I do think it was written well though. The characters did seem real, not perfect, but flawed, and able to evolve throughout their life. In all, not a favorite, but I think it was a good choice to read. I picked up a copy of the movie from the library, so I'm going to watch that next.
The style of the book and dialect made it feel like you were reading about Celie's life from her authentic perspective. There was no all-knowing narrator who could tell the reader the information Celie was lacking, therefore the reader experienced life as Celie did and discovered things as she did as well. There was also a striking innocence in how Celie views the world in the beginning of the book and how she becomes more aware of how the things that happened to her were not her fault or meant that she was a bad person. This self discovery was beautiful to see after her years of hardship and abuse. The ending was a bit of a silver lining for Celie and Nettie, after their lives apart. This novel depicted the bond between the women and how at times those in mentor and higher positions did nothing to help the girls of the town. This juxtaposition shows how women working together is much more effective, positive, and healthy than working against each other.
I've finished this book just now!and i am speechless!i really don't know what to say but it's a wonderful book and I have a good time reading it!
I loved reading everyone's responses here! I had many of the same feelings and thoughts as I was reading.
I gave the book 5 stars. Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
When the Celie signed her letter with the name of her pants business, I felt so triumphant for her! I cheered out loud!
I gave the book 5 stars. Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
When the Celie signed her letter with the name of her pants business, I felt so triumphant for her! I cheered out loud!
I loved it. The one word that I can use to describe it is powerful - from the very first diary entry, wow, nothing is held back. I loved to see the way Celie's life transformed as she discovered she was entitled to love.
Briony wrote: "I absolutely loved this book. I found the dialect took some getting used to, but loved the way it was done and thought it was fantastic to really hear the characters' voices.It was pretty heartbr..."
Wow, Briony, I'm kinda shocked that Walker thought that. To be honest, if we weren't here to talk about feminism, I would definitely inquire you guys about your opinion on all the religious elements presented in the book. Anyway, thanks for posting this note! ;)
Quotes that deeply affected me:C: "God wrote the bible, white folks had nothing to do with it."
SA: "How come he look just like them, then?... How come the bible just like everything else they make, all about them doing one thing and another, and all the colored folks doing is gitting cursed?"
SA: "My first step from the old white man was trees. Then air. Then birds. Then other people. But one day when I was sitting quit and feeling like a motherless child, which I was, it come to me: that feeling of being part of everything, not separate at all. I knew that if I cut a tree, my arm wold bleed."
DB: "First there's a road built to where you keep your goods. Then your trees are hauled off to make ships and captain's furniture. Then your land is planted with something you can't eat. Then you're forced to work it."
Briony wrote: "I absolutely loved this book. I found the dialect took some getting used to, but loved the way it was done and thought it was fantastic to really hear the characters' voices.It was pretty heartbr..."
I learned about "The Color Purple" while in college, though was never required to read it. Several of my Women's Studies professors mentioned it while discussing womanism and intersectionality/POC in feminist movements. Spirituality and faith are important aspects of womanism, which Alice Walker basically spearheaded to create a space/movement for WOC by WOC. I feel like my education is coming full circle with finally reading this text.
That's cool you got to read AW's thoughts in the anniversary edition, I'll need to check it out!
Emily, you can also add those quotes to the thread that was started to collect everyone's favorite quotes in the book! If you haven't already, that is :)
I was glad to have the opportunity to read this book as it's a part of the AP Literature reading list at my school anyway. I've had to read books by Harper Lee and Zora Neale Hurston for school that depict themes of racism, but this is the first time I've tried to read a book with similar themes that I wasn't forced to read. Alice Walker's voice in The Color Purple is unlike anything I've ever read before and I was astonished with the level of empathy she could create in the text.
I read this back to back with Toni Morrison's Beloved. I liked The Color Purple much better. It's 100% real, as opposed to Beloved, which is magical realism. Also, The Color Purple has a happy ending.
Katelyn wrote: "Emily, you can also add those quotes to the thread that was started to collect everyone's favorite quotes in the book! If you haven't already, that is :)"Good call! I didn't see that :)
I found this book eye opening and educational, and an enjoyable read, though at points hard to understand and follow. Because it took so long to get used to the style of Celie's 'voice' I feel I didn't connect with her early enough to feel massively emotionally invested in her story, though of course I empathised. The passage of time was something I found hard to follow and the 'he said she said' as someone else states above.
It was hard for me to read the first part of the book, with all the (sexual) abuse described in detail. I'm quite a sensitive person, such things can really keep me up at night. So I stopped reading the book. I checked the discussions here to see if it would be worthwile to continue reading. I picked up the book again this afternoon, couldn't stop reading and finished it just now. I'm glad that I gave this book a second chance, also thanks to you guys! Especially towards the end of the book, where the characters (re)define religion, love, friendship and the roles we are pressured into (Shug and Sofia and eventually Celie who refuse to be submissive women, and Albert who secretly loved sowing but had been ridiculed for it). I am so glad with the way this book ends, I love a good ending for all the characters who have been through so much. They became stronger, more empowered and surer of who they were and how they defined love.
I am so glad I joined this group, or else I would not have read this book, or probably would not have continued reading this book. So thank you Emma, for the book you chose, and thank you reading-companions, for convincing me to give this book another chance. A powerful and moving story.
Katelyn wrote: "When the Celie signed her letter with the name of her pants business, I felt so triumphant for her! I cheered out loud! "
This was one of my favourite parts. I actually looked back to make sure I hadn't missed it before.
I finished the book today, I read it in one sitting. It was written really well and due to Celie's letters, I really felt as though I was there. The end was very moving. I liked how the homosexual relationship was mentioned indirectly and Celie's debate with her self about faith was portrayed brilliantly.
This was one of my favourite parts. I actually looked back to make sure I hadn't missed it before.
I finished the book today, I read it in one sitting. It was written really well and due to Celie's letters, I really felt as though I was there. The end was very moving. I liked how the homosexual relationship was mentioned indirectly and Celie's debate with her self about faith was portrayed brilliantly.
Alice Walker's story is an intense tale about Celie overcoming unimaginable cruelty. The story has many layers, with Celie's letters to God focusing on the relentless cruelty by men in her family and community, and Nettie's letters to Celie about the terrible cruelty by men in Africa. Then Celie experiences a beautiful love from Shug, who shares her belief in God. Shug's focus is on what God must feel about not admiring or noticing a good thing. The title of the book compels us to carefully consider this line that contains the title: "I think it pisses God off if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it."
Throughout the novel, Walker doesn't have Celie call Albert by his name. She has Celie write "Mr. ______" Only when Albert makes Celie a purple frog, and by this action he acknowledges and respects Celie's desire for women, not men, does Celie call Albert by his name. When Shug asks about the purple frog, Celie writes, "Oh, I say, a little something Albert carve for me."
One of the great things about this novel is that circumstances and characters are constantly changing.
Celie is raped, beaten, humiliated, treated like a servant, then becomes a lover, a fashion designer, starts a business in her new home, and is finally respected by Albert, and others. Her letter writing is crude at first, then becomes more refined.
Walker sometimes focuses on sound to emphasis the change: "All us hear from inside is the thump, thump, thump of plump and stout feet." At the end of the chapter when Sofia leaves Harpo: "...and they all quiet as they leave."
Powerful forces are at work - men wanting to dominate and control how others live. Celie tries to change how Harpo treats Sofia but can't. When Harpo hears from Celie that love should be above control and violence, he gets sick and stops his overeating.
Celie's life "start up again" thanks to Shug, who becomes an agent of change. Shug stops Albert from beating Celie. Shug names a song after Celie, giving her strength. Shug awakens Celie's sexual life. Shug helps Celie redefine God. Shug gives Celie a place to go in Memphis where they make a home together. "I'm here to love you and help you get on your feet." p218. Because of Shug's belief in God, Celie doesn't just leave Albert, she enters "into the Creation."
Walker creates a number of engaging mysteries: Will the sisters reunite? Will Celie kill Albert? Will Shug and Celie reunite? Will Sofia's fighting spirit return?
Walker also creates some eye-opening surprises: Albert stole and hid Nettie's letters to Celie. Celie's Pa ain't her Pa. Shug insulted Celie by calling her ugly, then falls in love with her.
It starts as a story about who will keep fighting and gain enough knowledge and understanding to escape hell. Celie eventually leaves, but returns to the community and experiences the kind of love, dignity and respect we wanted her to have.
Nettie's journey shines light on issues that the world must resolve: inequality with the family, female education, female mutilation, colonialism, local and federal racism. Nettie's heartbreaking experiences in Africa is a reminder how good intentions and heart-felt endeavors can fail as a result of greed, inequality, and cruelty.
A number of key moments I really liked:
The reunion at the end; we wanted the sisters to be together again.
"...if words could kill, I'd be in an ambulance." p255
"...love can't be halted just cause some peoples moan and groan." p276
Pants become a symbol of independence and equality: "Anybody can wear them, I said." p 279
"Hard not to love Shug, I say. She know how to love somebody back." p289
Celie on Shug: "If she come, I be happy. If she don't, I be content. And then I figure this the lesson I was suppose to learn." These lines made me wonder if we were all put here to learn lessons.
The cemetery scene involving the horseshoe and Celie's wish to respect her true parents.
The reconciliation between Albert and Celie as Albert changes: "The more I wonder, he say, the more I love."
There was an interesting synchronicity involving the Olinka's serpent worship and Gloria Steinem's visit to Serpent Mound.
I'm grateful that Alice Walker shared her story, I learned a lot about Africa and new ways of thinking about cruelty, domination, inequality, love, and God.
I finished the book in one day. I loved it, and went straight to the store to buy more of her works. Tashi's story written in a second novel called "Possessing the Secret of Joy" if anyone is interested. It's very good also. Since I've finished The Color Purple, and am about half way through Tashi's novel, I am looking for something to read next. Any good recommendations? I absolutely loved both The Color Purple and My Life on the Road, and I can't wait until March to get my hands on another! Any recommendations would be great : )
I loved this book in terms of the way it was written was so easy to digest, it was just the content of the book (the topics) that were sometimes difficult to deal with. I must agree that the passage of time was hard to follow and i wasn't sure where it was set until quite late in the book, but am glad to have read it, was very good.
I actually think that it's intentional that we don't follow the time passage closely. It's only when Netty writes that it's been 30 years since she last heard from Celie that we realize how long they both have been strugling in this life and it comes as a bit of a shock, at least it did to me. And I think that's the idea! If the letters were dated we wouldn't be that surprised.
Lorelai wrote: "Tashi's story written in a second novel called "Possessing the Secret of Joy" if anyone is interested. "Thanks for the info. I put it on my to-read list.
I finished the book just this moment and don't let my 3 star rating fool you. I loved this book and think it should be a requirement for everyone to read! It took me a little longer to read than most books would because I had some difficulty with the language and had to slow down and go back.The spiritual exploration in the book is incredible though! It gives you such a different way to look at the bumps in the road that God has put in our way. It was a very humbling experience to read this book. I feel I've become more grounded as a person in the process.
Nubia wrote: "I actually think that it's intentional that we don't follow the time passage closely. It's only when Netty writes that it's been 30 years since she last heard from Celie that we realize how long th..."
Yeah, I was a bit frustrated while reading because the passage of time was unclear until I read that it had been 30 years, and that shock made me realize it was likely a carefully deliberate choice.
Yeah, I was a bit frustrated while reading because the passage of time was unclear until I read that it had been 30 years, and that shock made me realize it was likely a carefully deliberate choice.
I absolutely loved it. I've seen the movie several times, it's one of my favorites. But it was amazing how much the movie cut out. I loved Celie's journey (as so many of you have already mentioned) from passive to empowered. I also think it's interesting that she was able to move past her hatred of her husband and befriend him. Of course, that would have been impossible if he had not also changed.
As a bisexual woman, I also appreciated the honest portrayal of a woman/woman relationship, and the complications involved with Shug being bi.
I'm so glad I read this book, can't wait for next month!
As a bisexual woman, I also appreciated the honest portrayal of a woman/woman relationship, and the complications involved with Shug being bi.
I'm so glad I read this book, can't wait for next month!
I loved this book again for my third or fourth time but not in the past 15 years. I immediately picked up Possessing the Secret of Joy and began rereading (I used to read it every year up until except during the last decade or so.)
I expect that although I'd not planned another Walker binge for 2016, I will follow Possessing... with The Temple of my Familiar which I thought includes some of the same characters, but in slightly less detail.
I also very much enjoyed Walker's account of making the movie The Color Purple, called The Same River Twice.
I have to say I had absolutely no interest in reading this and it was pure luck that I had an ebook version of it and then it popped up as this month's read. I bought it on a whim out of curiosity but never even read a synopsis so I had no idea what I was getting into. all I have to say is that I am simply in love with this book. I am so glad that I read it and joined in with everyone in reading it. I probably never would have read it otherwise and I would have totally missed out. I'm so very glad I didnt. for being someone who works full time and goes to school full time I am very happy that I took the time to read this
Books mentioned in this topic
The Color Purple (other topics)The Temple of My Familiar (other topics)
The Color Purple (other topics)
The Temple of My Familiar (other topics)
Possessing the Secret of Joy (other topics)
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What did everyone think?