Our Shared Shelf discussion

I thought I would start a discussion on depiction of gender roles and the reversal of gender roles.

"A girl is nothing to herself; only to her husband can she become something.
What can she become? I asked
Why, she said, the mother of his children.
But I'm not a mother of anybody's children, I said, and I am something"

I think this quote perfectly illustrates women's place in society at that time, and the challenge to that idea. I totally agree with Nettie that women can be something other than mother's and wives. I love Nettie for her strength of character in this statement.

We see that Harpo likes cooking, and that Sophia would rather be outdoors: "he seem so much to love it. To tell the truth, he love that part of housekeeping a heap more 'en me. I rather be out in the fields or fooling with the animals. Even chopping wood. But he love cooking and cleaning and doing little things around the house". We learn that housekeeping seems "so natural" to Harpo, but that he did not help around the house growing up as Mr______ would not have liked that.

Nettie says "the world is changing... it is no longer a world just for boys and men". This is true now, as it was then.

One of the quotes that has stuck me after reading the book is this: "our people pity women such as you who are outcast, we know not from where, into a world unknown to you, where you must struggle all alone, for yourself". As a 20something, I am still trying to find myself and sometimes struggling to do so. I know I have friends and family to help me but ultimately this finding myself must come from myself for myself.

On page 269 of my book she is talking with Mister about Shug and Sofia. Mister says that because they are upright, honest, willing to fight and speak their minds, that they are more manly then most men. And Celie replies that there are plenty of men who don't have those traits - those traits don't make them manly, they make them womanly.

I thought about Elizabeth 1. several times while I was reading the book.

Elizabeth had to choose not to get married. If she'd married her husband would have been regent instead of her, so she had to choose between having a family and wielding her own power.

Many of the women in the novel seem to face the same choice. Shug, Nettie and Squeak all wanted a carreer, or at least the power to make their own decisions, but to do so, they had to leave their children behind or give up having a family completely.
If women want power, they have to give up what society considers traditionally feminine.

The men also experience a sort of gender role reversal. Both Harpo and Albert seem violent, uncaring and pathetic. It's only after they both embrace a traditionally feminine role (cleaning, sewing etc.), that they're redeemed.

Sara wrote: "On page 269 of my book she is talking with Mister about Shug and Sofia. Mister says that because they are upright, honest, willing to fight and speak their minds, that they are more manly then most..."

And for me, that is what emancipation and feminism is about. To decide for yourself who you are. Because you cannot be "you" as long as you don't have the choice to actually "be" you, because society doesn't allow you to be--but presses you into some kind of model instead. To choose to work, to choose to be with your children and let your partner earn the money, to choose to like this or that, to do this or that. And to give others the opportunity to choose, too, and to respect their choices as they respect yours.

Being a man I believe feminism is about both genders having equality and the equality of gender roles. True equality means both men and women must change certain perceptions. I don't want to raise my son to believe he must be the epitome of "masculinity" anymore than I want my daughter to believe she must do "girl things".
The men in this book to a certain extent are themselves victims of gender roles in society. Mister reveals that he used to enjoy sewing but he was teased so he stopped. His son eats excessively as he doesn't know what it means to be a man, a husband beyond the role he was taught. They were men believing that their power came in their dominance of "inferior" women through their "masculinity".
I wanted to keep hating Mister, though I conceded that his own journey of redemption humanised him and allowed him to move beyond the male oppressor in Celie's life. Granted this came as a direct result of Celie gaining her power. Though Celie could have used her new found power to punish him but she didn't. That transcendent moment the two of them sit side by side on the porch sewing. That to me was profound given everything we knew about Mister and Celie to that point.

I've just started my re-read of the book and found something practically at the very beginning of the book. In the edition I'm reading it on page 20. Celie is already married to Mr. _________ and his sisters come to visit. They first commend her for keeping the house clean, but then they start bashing the first wife.

"She never want to be here in the first place. Well, that's no excuse. When a woman marry she spose to keep a decent and clean family......And cook. She wouldn't cook. She act like she never seen a kitchen"

Then: "Not so pretty, says Carrie, looking in the looking glass. Just that head of hair. She too black.
Well, brother must like black. Shug Avery black as my shoe."

And then Carries starts bashing Shug:

"Shug Avery, Shug Avery, Carrie says. I'm sick of her. Somebody say she going round trying to sing. Umph, what she got to sing about. Say she wearing dresses all up her leg and headpieces with little bells and tassles hanging down, look like window dressing."

Why is it that women have that urge to bash other women and find fault in them? Why don't we have a "girl code" like men have "bro code" (or whatever the hell it's called). Why do we jump to the opportunity to say something bad about another woman. I feel like women feel more peer pressure from other women than from men. It gives me the impression that women are the ones who put restrictions and expectations on themselves, and the problem is that this situation is still existing today and even worse than in the times of Celie.

A few pages later, the bashing queen Carrie, comes back to visit without her sister and, after seeing how children and Mr. __________ treat her, she tells her that she has to fight them and gain the upper hand.

Talk about hypocrisy. Make up your mind woman!

Thoughts?

@Samanta

I was thinking the same! Women bashing other women is just the worst!

How should we ever manage to gain equality if we can't be nice to each other?
I think some women are bashing because they're jealous, maybe their lifes aren't too good and they want others to feel their pain or whatever.

In Mr. _____ sister's case: I don't quite get why she's so mean. Maybe because she's black? Or she thinks her brother makes a better husband than her own and is jealous?
And I can quite imagine that she's being abused at home as well. Why else would she tell Celie to keep strong and stand against Mr. _____. It must be something his sister experienced before

Could be. After all, if we take this story into account, every woman expected to be abused because it was considered normal. You didn't need to like it, but you got used to it even before you experienced it for yourself. But I don't think this sister even knows what she wants. Does she want to meek (a proper wife for the time) or does she want to fight back?

Have you also noticed the level of racism among the Black people.? "too ugly, to black..."

Racism was even worse back then, and still isn't much better sadly.. But they are constantly reminded that they're black and not worth much which is really awful. Especially as they just get used to it and it seems to me that not everyone really wants to try making the situation better

The people are so used to being looked down upon because of their skin color, that they do the same kind of discrimination.

I have just finished reading the book and like some other contributors I was struck by the racism reinforced by both people of colour and white people and their idea that white and coloured people may produce offspring as unacceptable. The fact that Celie is constantly described as ugly is taken for granted and she believes this as fact which will have an impact on her self esteem although she is able to maintain a level of reflection and positivity that Nettie is not dead, although she only has Mr's name to go upon. The fact that Alice Walker has chosen to leave Mr---unnamed by Celie only reinforces the idea that he demands respect even though they are married, this is not an equal partnership. The fact that Sugg calls him Albert reinforces that she demands more respect, later on she is described as being like a man and this speech supports this. This device reminds me of a contrast with Of Mice and Men where Curley's Wife is never given a name as she is considered of little importance so Walker is turning the device on its head. This is just what caught my eye as an immediate interpretation of the book now I have completed it. I plan to watch the film and to read the advanced york notes on the book as I am interested in it and have found myself wishing I studied it at school.

The ways Mr.'s sisters are so negative towards Celie, from criticizing the way she does (or doesn't) keep the house to criticizing how she looks, are the expressions of the racism and gender restrictions that African American men and women operated within as citizens of a country that constantly pushed the idea that they were not completely human, completely civilized, that they had to "earn" the respect of the white majority (a rhetoric tied into the "uplift" ideology of the early 20th century and still in use today, full of so many problems of its own), and that physical signifiers of "blackness" were viewed as "ugly," "course," and "unrefined."

I don't think Carrie is being a hypocrite, I think Walker is trying to show us the ways black women were/and still are to some degree, constantly walking this tightrope of being these strong, impenetrable forces within the black community, of supporting our men, of being the perfect example of refined, beautiful black womanhood, but sometimes at the expense of our own happiness, security, and health. That fact that she comes back and tells Celie that she does not deserve to be treated in that way shows that she is aware of this problem, a thread that I think flows throughout the book.

It's amazing (and not in a positive way) the ways that racism and sexism within a society are able to be distilled not only through the biased laws of the United States, the cultural stereotypes of minority groups and women in mainstream culture, and the ways these stereotypes affect how those with the social, cultural, and political power perceive these groups, but also the ways those who are members of those marginalized groups believe these stereotypes and apply them to others to "keep them in their place" and to improve their own sense of self worth. It's one of the most insidious methods of ideological control and abuse, to constantly feed an individual or group of people that they are worthless and impossible of living a fulfilling life. Living in such an environment is so much harder to break through and challenge than is often acknowledged, especially when a person (i.e. Celie) does not realize their own power, strength, and potential until they stop and ask: "Do I really deserve to be treated in this way?"

What I like about Harpo is that he is so "feminine" and if the plot took place nowadays, some might argue that he's a homosexual. But one can see that he's not and I like it, because one can see that homosexuality and gender roles aren't linked together. It just smashes a prejudice.

Kori wrote: "The ways Mr.'s sisters are so negative towards Celie, from criticizing the way she does (or doesn't) keep the house to criticizing how she looks, are the expressions of the racism and gender restri..."

Well said, Kori. If a society keeps telling someone that they are inferior some of that is going to get into your head. I think one of the things that Alice Walker is writing about here is how all of the characters are struggling to try to overcome or clear their heads of the terrible things they have been taught, at least enough to get a little bit of space to just be. All of them fighting inside and outside and pushing each other down and helping and lifting each other up along the way. One of the things I love about this book is not one character is simple evil or simple good, they are all trapped and struggling and seeking courage.

Kori wrote: "but also the ways those who are members of those marginalized groups believe these stereotypes and apply them to others to "keep them in their place" and to improve their own sense of self worth. It's one of the most insidious methods of ideological control and abuse, to constantly feed an individual or group of people that they are worthless and impossible of living a fulfilling life."

Well said.