The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Now we are halfway through...

One, I almost felt sorry for Bradley Headstone and his agonizing marriage proposal to Lizzie. Nothing is worse than unrequited love. Although, we start with Miss Peecher, and she also does not have her feeling of love reciprocated by Bradley Headstone. I have a feeling that Lizzie does love Eugene...I believe that it is their fear of class differences keeping them apart, and Lizzie's stubborn loyalty to her father. Do you agree/disagree?

Two, we finally have the mystery of John Harmon/Julius Handford/John Rokesmith solved. All three are the same man, which is what I guessed near the beginning and Dickens' mention of a "ghost." What do you think of his reasons to keep quiet? How does it affect the Boffinses? Bella?

Three, Pleasant Riderhood isn't quite as bad as her father, but she definitely isn't honest. What did you think about the chapter with the Riderhoods and John Harmon/Rokesmith?

Four, more of a statement than a question. I thought less of Eugene Wrayburn after the passage with Mr. Riah. And I had really liked his character up until that moment. He did regain some back during the Lammle's anniversary dinner, but definitely not all the way back.

Five, two surprises in the Lammle's anniversary dinner: what has happened to Lizzie, and who is coming to Miss Georgianna's aid and who does she get to help her? (Both very much surprised me!).

Six, out of order, but my original post forgot to include Charley. Charley Hexam is moving lower and lower (in my humble estimation). On the surface, it seems as if he is trying to help Lizzie by urging her to marry Bradley Headstone, so she'll move up in the world. But in reality, he doesn't want her "lower" position to reflect badly on him. Do you agree/disagree?

I also had a problem with Eugene's condescension to Riah. He was the same way to Headstone, who although annoying, didn't necessarily deserve such scorn. After all, Headstone is teaching young people, and what does Eugene do? Pretends to be a lawyer, hangs out with the Veneerings, follows Lizzie around. And Charley will probably turn out like that.

There's an interesting contrast with how Rokesmith takes Bella's rejections as opposed to how Headstone does. Also Headstone's declaration reminded me of Darcy in Pride & Prejudice, only more so. It's like he is blaming Lizzie for having bewitched him into something he didn't even want.

For a novel that is so well done otherwise, I was disappointed that the only way Dickens could reveal the truth about Harmon was in a long monologue. In a movie this would have been a flashback, but it seemed rather awkward. It would have been better if he had been writing it down for posterity, or talking to a dog, or something! Or it could have been his memories but rendered in a different fashion, not so much "Let us recap" type of thing.

Ooh, this was a delicious section! I too had suspected that Rokesmith might be Harmon, however I had assumed this would be a late revelation. Robin, you're right, it was a rather poor literary device to present it as an internal monologue-perhaps a will or secret letter to be opened on his death would have worked!

While I also felt somewhat sorry for Headstone, I agreed that he was almost blaming Lizzie for ensnaring him, he was somewhat sneering towards her low station (a la D'Arcy indeed!), and appears to have a streak of violence in him which does not bode well for a marriage, particularly one lacking in love on her side. Charley also behaved very badly-his contempt and the fact that he almost strikes her twice (and I'm glad she calls him on that) makes me hope that he makes good on his "threat" to stay out of her life from now on-she is probably better of without him. Dickens seems to have quite a collection of ungrateful male relatives who sponge off their mothers/sisters/daughters (who have often sacrificed everything for them) and then treat them badly.

Lizzie, with her inherent sweetness of character and stunning beauty, might actually have a shot at marrying out of her current situation. Can someone remind me how she is supporting herself at present? I think she's working, but can't remember where or at what.

Lynnm-I agree about thinking less of Wrayburn after the passage with Riah, although perhaps that has more to do with how offensive we find anti-semitism now, while it was presumably more acceptable then.

I rather liked Pleasant-she is probably pretty honest for someone growing up in her sphere, and she seems to be quite an independent business woman, which impresses me for the time.

I will probably read ahead as it's getting exciting-I often find in these reads I struggle for the first half or so of his novels and then get completely absorbed and read right through!

Robin wrote: "I also had a problem with Eugene's condescension to Riah. He was the same way to Headstone, who although annoying, didn't necessarily deserve such scorn. After all, Headstone is teaching young peop..."

Great point about Bradley Headstone's marriage proposal being like Mr. Darcy's to Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice. As soon as I read that, I thought, yes, they are the same! What a way to win a woman's heart...tell her that he struggled against loving her because she is so much lower in class position.

As for Eugene, he is supposed to be likable so I think as Frances pointed out, that it has more to do with the fact that we find that type of behavior offensive today, where in Dickens' time, sadly, not so much.

The monologue was strange, but that is a rather standard device for novels in the 19th century. Of course, I can't think of other examples off the top of my head, but I do remember running into that in a number of other novels.

Phew! So glad to be caught up! Book Two sucked right into the story.

I didn't feel sorry for Bradley Headstone at all, though. I found him repugnant in every aspect of his attentions. (The difference between Headstone and D'arcy is that D'arcy genuinely was a man of substantial property, bloodline, breeding, class, etc. Elizabeth had a water understanding of him once she visited Pemberly. There was a real reason for his pride and sense of responsibility.) Headstone is just officious and self-aggrandized. He holds a social position merely because he is better educated than the poorest and most illiterate. BH continues to force his attentions with barely managed temper. He tried to wear Lizzie down by shaming and humiliating her. By nearly accusing her of indiscretion. And Charley needs his #!*% kicked. What a little monster! (He reminds me of the Gradgrind boy from Hard Times.)

Also, I didn't see as much askance in the encounter between Eugene and Riah. (I may have missed something, though.) I just thought that 1) Riah has the bad reputation which Fledgeby deserves, and 2) Riah is keeping Eugene from being alone with Lizzie. (He is in the right to be protective of her. But I can see that the young man might be put out.)

Overall, I'm really enjoying this novel! I knew nothing of the plot so it's a real treat to see it unfolding.

I have also finally finished these chapters, have been fighting with a very bad cold already for some weeks. However, I have not made so many notes.

So just some additional comments to what you have already stated:

We discussed in a previous thread who might be the teacher of Lizzie and Jenny. I think the 2 discuss about that in chapter 11 and talk about a "she". So it could not be Mr. Riah either.

I was also slightly impressed by Pleasant Riderhood who seems to have set up a business for herself and is idependent this way, even if she is not the most honest, she at least is against direct robbery and violence... She is also very sarcastic about weddings, christenings and weddings which reminded me of Dickens take on these topics in his other novels like with the funeral of Jonas Chuzzlewit in MC.

Chapter 13 was a little strange to me:
1. the way the revelation about John Harmon's identity came out
2. the timing of the revelation (I thought the mystery would be on for a longer period as we are only just about halfway the novel)

Somehow these chapters have many refusals:
1. Bella tries to keep John at a distance
2. Lizzie refuses Bradley Headstone and even Eugene

The scene with Bradley Headstone, Charley and Lizzie is put very dramatically into a scene. I was really appalled by Headstone, but on the other hand had also some compassion with his unrequited love. He could have kept it a little more for himself though instead of pushing dear Lizzie. That was rather creepy and on the stalker side. And Charley was not better, rather worse as he cannot claim unrequited love as the reason, but just hos own selfishness.
I wonder what happened to Lizzi as we only learn in the narrative at the Lammles' breakfast that she has disappeared. I was also surprised that one year had already passed since the Lammle's wedding.

Oh, yes, you're right. I didn't catch the timing but it does seem off. If never have guessed that a whole year had passed.

Renee wrote: "Phew! So glad to be caught up! Book Two sucked right into the story.

I didn't feel sorry for Bradley Headstone at all, though. I found him repugnant in every aspect of his attentions. (The differ..."

Renee, I agree - Charley does need to get his butt kicked. :-)

And interesting take on Riah and Eugene. It could be that Eugene is annoyed because he sees Riah as blocking his access to Lizzie. I'm not sure if Eugene would know that Fledgeby and Riah are connected or even if Eugene would know that Fledgeby is a bad person.

Hedi wrote: "I have also finally finished these chapters, have been fighting with a very bad cold already for some weeks. However, I have not made so many notes.

So just some additional comments to what you ha..."

The whole teacher thing for Lizzie is confusing. Why is Riah tutoring them? Is she really seeing a tutor (female) that Eugene found for her? It's not very clear.

Eugene probably doesn't know their connected. It was my understanding that Fledgeby has set things up so that Riah appears to be the bad guy, while Fledgeby collects the cash.

It reminds me of those characters in Little Dorrit. (Whose names I can't think of just now) The landlord and his man of business.