Victorians! discussion

If you have suggestions for poems to discuss as a group, or if you just want to chat about your favourites, this is the place to do it!

I think it would be great to have a group discussion of poems or a group of poems. Some of the ones that come to mind are looking at a couple of dramatic monologues by Browning or Tennyson.

Because many readers resist poetry (I know, because I am always trying to inflict poetry on people who seem that they might appreciate it but who don't) maybe it would be a good idea to announce one fairly brief poem and to have it up for discussion for 2 weeks or 15 days. We could try just posting the poem, or we could try to ask questions about the poem. Another possibility is to "pin" a poem or poet or a couple of poems by a poet to the "Currently Reading" sign at the top of this discussion board.

And there are some poets who had part of their careers in the period--Yeats, Hardy, AE Housman, and Robert Bridges, for example.

Hi Natalie

I recently tried to get a poetry corner going but stopped after a few months. I agree that poetry should have a place in discussions within Victorians!

Perhaps others will see and respond favourably to these posts. I'd be quite happy to be a part of a poetry group.

Peter wrote: "Hi Natalie

I recently tried to get a poetry corner going but stopped after a few months. I agree that poetry should have a place in discussions within Victorians!

Perhaps others will see and res..."

I also. The Poetry Corner was a valiant effort, but was mostly sharing and not a structured discussion. I would love to have a discussion of some Victorian poetry -- some poems that I think would make for excellent discussions are Ulysses, In Memoriam (a bit longer), Tithonius, The Lotus Eaters, The Ballad of East and West, If, just to mention a few.

And I haven't included any Hardy yet.

If we're only looking to British poets, sadly we have to omit Whitman. Oh well.

Everyman wrote: "The Poetry Corner was a valiant effort, but was mostly sharing and not a structured discussion. I would love to have a discussion of some Victorian poetry -- "

I agree. I would love to see more poetry!!

I haven't read hardly any poetry, mostly because I don't know where to start. So much of the modern stuff that was pushed when I was in college is incomprehensible. I think my elementary school teachers were better at introducing us to real gems. Anyway, I never got into the habit of digging out the classics, and a setting like this seems perfect to me.

We as a culture are no longer in the habit of reading and sharing, let alone writing good poetry. We no longer memorize poetry. This is a real shame, for we are depriving ourselves of the beauty of language.

I would be willing to post a poem (selected by somebody else, perhaps) and then post some questions for people to ponder and maybe respond to.

I think that you can select some very wonderful poems that are not too difficult. Does this group include the Americans of the Victorian period or the British?

Here's an example:
the first 3 lines only for now:

Tennyson's "The Eagle"

"He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
RIng'd with the azure world he stands."

1) What is the effect of all of the "cl" and "cr" sounds?
2) Why hands? Surely eagles have talons?
3) Why is he so close to the sun? How is that possible?
4) What are these lonely lands?
5) What is the azure world?

These questions are meant to have people stop and think about the individual words and images. They are not difficult questions but they welcome readers to spend some time in thought about the poem and its language.

I want to add my yay vote to any discussion re having poetry regularly. I would participate but appreciate questions.

I applaud the effort to resurrect the Poetry Corner since there really is a place for poetry discussion in The Victorians. I know nothing about poetry and am one of those people who can read a poem and truly just not "get it". If anyone here can help me understand poetry, I would love it. The one poem that I DO like from this time period (I think) is Rossetti's "Goblin Market". There may not be a lot of cross-over from the novel readers to poetry, but we might be surprised. Even if it is a completely different group, it would be a good thing to have a place for poetry fans to discuss. As a new Moderator, anything I can do to help, please let me know!

There is much going on in the first three lines, isn't there? Tennyson knows how to make words sound their meaning. In response to the first question I find the "cl" and "cr" sound is hard, much like the crag the eagle grips. It is quite amazing how Tennyson manages to incorporate 4 such hard sounds into such a compact setting; equally interesting, I find, is how he tends to round out and soften the harsh sounds with the "ands" on the end word at the end of each line. This hard sound, then drawn softer sound is further amplified by the repetitive rhyme scheme of a,a, a in the first stanza. The word sound in the "o" of close" and " lonely" in line 2 and "world" in line 3 also tend to lengthen and soften the feel of the line. A truly remarkable breadth of style in such a compact number of words.

Your question, Natalie, and comment, Peter, made me think about how the eagle's movement is captured in three lines, and even in just one word. The combination of his fluid glide (those soft sounds) and his abrupt landing (the hard sounds). The second word "clasps" contains both. That cluster of consonants, "sps", is mimicked? In "nds" in the rhyming words, hands, lands, stands.

Thank you for those comments. I found them both very illuminating. No wonder Tennyson is often said to have the best "ear" of any poet in the English language. He manages to do so much in such a brief space.

Kerstin wrote: "I haven't read hardly any poetry, mostly because I don't know where to start. "

May I suggest one of the basic anthologies? I love, for example, "Poems Every Child Should Know."

It's been around almost forever, at least I was raised on it, and it has (or had, and I assume still has) a nice selection of basic Western poetry. Don't let the title scare you off; it's for more than children, but gives a nice introduction to many of the major poets without getting into the more esoteric or complex poems (like Donne).

I you can buy them separately second hand, the Harvard Classics (Five Foot Shelf) volumes 40, 41, and 42 are a nice selection of English poetry.

Then Everyman's Library Pocket Poets series has nice small volumes on many major poets (and some not so major) poets. They are pocket sized, but hardback not paperback so will hold up, and are sufficient to give a good sense of the poet and whether she or he is pleasing to you, but not so massive as to be overwhelming.

Natalie wrote: "No wonder Tennyson is often said to have the best "ear" of any poet in the English language. ."

I had never heard that, and while I love him, I generally love him more for his content than for his ear, though that may be my ignorance. But when it comes to ear, I think it's hard to beat Kipling, though the content and meaning of most of his verse isn't close to Tennyson's.

Everyman wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I haven't read hardly any poetry, mostly because I don't know where to start. "

May I suggest one of the basic anthologies? I love, for example, "Poems Every Child Should Know." [b..."

Thank you! :)

I love Kipling and it probably says something about me that I never considered him as a poet, in spite of memorizing "IF" not because I had to but just because I liked it. I also like the idea of adding the book promo on top of the Victorians with the group read.

In response to question two, "why hands?"

I wonder to what extent the reader is meant to ponder the first word of the line which is "He." The poem is titled "The Eagle" and grammatically the reference to hands would go back and refer to the word "He" yet, I wonder ...

Is the eagle being personified? Does the eagle in the title perhaps refer to someone? Do eagles have hands like man? Does a great man have hands like an eagle? As I go around these questions I feel that the personification is key to the poem in its larger context. When we move on to the second stanza we will encounter more rhyme and a definite change in movement.

I rather like having the entire poem in front of me because it helps to see the larger scheme:


The Eagle
BY ALFRED, LORD TENNYSON

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.


*************************
I wonder if the word "hands" is meant to jolt the reader a bit into considering the eagle as a personification of something that people cannot be: aloof so far from the world and so close to the sun. Also the masculine pronouns are used 6 times, so I wonder if he is stressing the power of the masculine?

I bring this up because Tennyson wrote a series of poems about entrapped women, such as "Mariana" and "The Lady of Shalott" and others also. These women are confined whereas his eagle is very free. Tennyson also saw himself as confined in poems such as "The Palace of Art".

"The Eagle" seems like a romantic poem with its brevity and its tribute to nature. Tennyson's childhood and young adulthood and first period of authorship were all technically within the romantic period, but he established many of the themes that were dearest to the Victorian intellect.

I'm going to take Tennyson at his word/title...and assume he is talking about an eagle. If I look at images of eagles about to grab hold, their feet...the thick, pale parts of them...do look like hands, albeit crooked ones. Whereas, In flight, perched...they don't. Perhaps there is personification here in the sense of identification, narrator identifying with male, power, master of his world.

As far as I could find, talons are claws, and the claws on the eagle are rounded and pointy, effective at killing and holding onto prey, but I'd say the hands grab and secure those rocky crags.

Natalie wrote: "I rather like having the entire poem in front of me because it helps to see the larger scheme:


The Eagle
BY ALFRED, LORD TENNYSON

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lon..."

I think you are on to a key point. For such a brief poem the use of the masculine pronoun 6 times makes the masculine relationship to the eagle very pronounced. I like very much your idea of how the masculine is seen as free whereas in some other significant poems by Tennyson the female figure is confined in some way.

The second stanza furthers the personification. The sea is personified as looking "wrinkled" and the sea's movement "crawls." Interesting choice of words. "Wrinkled" suggests aged while "crawls" is suggestive of a child, or a movement that is slow. Consider the last line ""And like a thunderbolt he falls." In this line, all the pent-up inaction of "clasp[ing] the crag" and crawling explodes into a torrent of powerful action. The majesty of nature is unleashed as the simile "like a thunderbolt" is used to describe the "he" who falls. God-like from on high, the masculine power descends to the earth.

What a remarkable poem.

Peter wrote: "For such a brief poem the use of the masculine pronoun 6 times makes the masculine relationship to the eagle very pronounced."

I would have never caught on to that! In my native German 'eagle' is masculine - der Adler, so you automatically talk about a 'he'. That's the power of the native language, which one never completely leaves behind.

Peter wrote: "In response to question two, "why hands?"

Partly perhaps for the personification, as has been noted.

But partly, perhaps, also simply because as an image it is much more effective than "He clasps the crag with crooked claws." Talons wouldn't scan. If he used something other than hands, he would have to recast the line, wouldn't he?

Yes. In order to get the stanza into an a,a,a, rhyme Tennyson needs the end words to rhyme. However, Tennyson does use the words "wrinkled" and "crawls" in the second stanza which both have clear human connotations as well.

The reader is asked to see the eagle as a magnificent creature who is on a crag "Close to the sun in lonely lands" which conjures up a vision of power in that he is "[c]lose to the sun." By adding the next phrase "in lonely lands" I see this as another indication of the eagle's unique status and position. The crag gives the eagle an almost unassailable position, his position near the sun gives the eagle an almost mythic and classic position and the "lonely lands" further suggests a separation from mere humans. When the eagle leaves the crag and "like a thunderbolt ...falls" it is as if a god is coming to earth.

Everyman, you mentioned Walt Whitman in an earlier post. Do you recall his poem "The Dalliance of Eagles." I sense some similarities between the poems. In Whitman's poem we have the brief falling of two magnificent creatures through the air as they join to engender life. Then, their task accomplished, they separate, and separately, fly each their own way, each pursuing. What a glorious poem of power and freedom these two poems are.

It does not take too many words to create wonderful discussion, does it?

I always thought that the verb "falls" is problematic. It sounds passive: I know he must maintain the rhyme scheme, but he might have used a word like "flies" or something more dynamical. Or maybe it works if you think of the "fall" as a sort of dramatic dive.

Natalie wrote: "I always thought that the verb "falls" is problematic. It sounds passive: I know he must maintain the rhyme scheme, but he might have used a word like "flies" or something more dynamical. Or maybe ..."

Yes. My approach would be to read the word "falls" as a motion downward from a higher position. To me, a fall to earth suggests the coming of a god-like presence to the earth. That the eagle falls "like a thunderbolt" is a clear link to a suggestive god. "[F]alls" does sound passive, doesn't it, and yet it is a perfect word to describe a god-like presence. Gods need not hurry or make a fuss. Gods come to humans in their own time. Are there faint echoes of a similar decent of a God to earth in the myth of Zeus coming to earth to rape Leda? I am not suggesting that this poem, in any way, is linked to that myth, only suggesting the act of movement and decent to earth can be seem as similar.

Lynne wrote: "I applaud the effort to resurrect the Poetry Corner since there really is a place for poetry discussion in The Victorians. I know nothing about poetry and am one of those people who can read a poem..."

I definitely vote for Goblin Market. The Lady of Shalott, by Tennyson, would be a good one too. I also recommend My Last Duchess by Robert Browning. I also suggest that we pick one poet per month, and perhaps, do one of his or her poems per week. For example, The Darkling Thrush by Hardy was a good discussion, but fizzled out rather quickly. So one per week may be a good pace.

Peter wrote: "That the eagle falls "like a thunderbolt" is a clear link to a suggestive god. "

"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."--Luke 10:18

Does this help? This reference, I believe, is to Satan being cast out of heaven. On the other hand, this eagle seems to purposely fall so as to pounce.

Jonathan wrote: "Lynne wrote: "I applaud the effort to resurrect the Poetry Corner since there really is a place for poetry discussion in The Victorians. I know nothing about poetry and am one of those people who c..."

Post your suggestion to Natalie in the moderator's group also.

Lynne wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Lynne wrote: "I applaud the effort to resurrect the Poetry Corner since there really is a place for poetry discussion in The Victorians. I know nothing about poetry and am one of t..."

Lynne, help me I do not know what the moderator's group is or where it is found. I can find no link or invitation or anything.

Jonathan wrote: "Lynne wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Lynne wrote: "I applaud the effort to resurrect the Poetry Corner since there really is a place for poetry discussion in The Victorians. I know nothing about poetry a..."

Dilemma solved! You should find it now. You are right that you cannot see it until invited since it is a behind-the-scenes thing.

Hello everyone! Thank you for your contributions.
I think that the idea of doing a poet a month is a great one. Some of the contenders would be (in addition to Hardy):

Better known:
EB Browning
Robert Browning
Tennyson
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Christina Rossetti
Matthew Arnold
Gerard Manley Hopkins
Algernon Charles Swinburne
The Bronte Sisters
Oscar Wilde
R. Kipling
Robert Bridges
Lewis Carroll
WS Gilbert

and the late Wordsworth
and the early Yeats
early AE Housman

Lesser known but worthy poets:
Arthur Henry Clough
George Meredith
William Morris
Augusta Webster
Thomas Hood
Leigh Hunt
Charlotte Mew
Coventry Patmore

And the 1890's decadents and other late Victorians
Arthur Symons
Ernest Dowson
Lionel Johnson
Austin Dobson
Henley
Oscar Wilde
Alice Meynell
Amy Levy
Michael Field
Robert Louis Stevenson

Dean, Thank you for your excellent response to "The Eagle". Your insights really help me to understand the poem.

Y'all may be interested Future Learn is offering a free online course on Robert Burns
I think it starts a week from Monday

Dean wrote: "This is a great way to get reluctant poetry readers to explore the form, and to question the effect that language has on them generally. I will make an attempt. "He clasps the crag with crooked h..."

Good insight Dean. Does "azure" have a connotation as opposed to any other shade of blue? Does the use of that word tell us something?

Natalie wrote: "Hello everyone! Thank you for your contributions.
I think that the idea of doing a poet a month is a great one. Some of the contenders would be (in addition to Hardy): Better known: EB Browning Ro..."

Wow, impressive list. How do we want to approach this? Do you want to go in some kind of order? Or, should we vote each month? There are positive points for each each approach. If we were to go chronologically, for instance, we could discuss how the poetry changed through the age. If we voted prior to each month, we could perhaps attract more readers since people could choose the poets they like. What do you think?

Dean wrote: "Like to suggest "The Last Duchess " if we are reading Browning."

Natalie, I agree with this suggestion. Maybe we could do Browning in Feb. and that could be the first week. Although, it might be good for "Valentine's Day" for those with a morbid sense of humor.

I don't know much about poetry, but just enough that "Duchess" for Valentine's Day made me chuckle.

I will put this in a couple of places to hopefully catch as many people as possible. I went through the whole Victorians site and pulled together all of the previous poems, poets, discussions, etc from earlier and put them all in a new folder called Poetry Archives. Poetry fans can look in one place for stuff that has been out there in the past in one place or another.

Victorian Lit, University of Alberta, 1946
by Robert Kroetsch from Too Bad: Sketches Toward A Self-Portrait

Professor Jones said we should listen
to what he was saying instead of writing it down.
We wrote that down too. What he was saying.

We were studying Matthew Arnold's "Dover Beach."
Half the students in the class were freshly back from war.
One of the veterans asked, When did Arnold write this poem?

Perhaps he hadn't been paying attention. I checked my notes
and read the dates: commenced 1851, published 1867.
Professor Jones said, Every enduring poem was written today.

I have been a huge fan of Robert Kroetsch's novels for almost 50 years, but only now, after his death, have I started dipping into his poetry. And he wrote a great deal, most of which is difficult to track down now.

This poem sent me looking for Matthew Arnold and "Dover Beach". I see he is not on the list. This particular poem is lovely, with another wonderful use of the word"darkling," That is all I know about him at this point, but if you more experienced poetry people think he is interesting, please put him (Arnold) on our list of possibilities for the future.

Ginny wrote: "This poem sent me looking for Matthew Arnold"

They discussed this poem here last year. As far as I know Arnold is fair game. None of these lists is supposed to be exhaustive. Of course, we will include Arnold. What does it mean in the last line, "Every enduring poem was written today"?

If this poem was discussed last year, would you like me to put a link to the Archives (if I can find the poem?)

Lynne wrote: "If this poem was discussed last year, would you like me to put a link to the Archives (if I can find the poem?)"

Yes, please. I did track it down. It was the last poem--August, 2016. It didn't get a lot of discussion--I wasn't checking in on the poetry at that time.

Here is the link to Dover Beach.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Jonathan wrote: "What does it mean in the last line, "Every enduring poem was written today"? ..."

I imagine the author a young freshman, a prairie boy, determined, naive, and eager, busily writing down the dates. (I was that person, 20 years later, same place.) Weren't these vets paying attention? When the questioner hears the prof's answer, it means the prof understands that the poem feels raw and fresh to those just returned from "a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight..." To the boy, it tells him the poem is not an ancient artifact, but immediate and relevant to life at that moment. That in writing down the dates he is missing the experience.

To me, this morning, it emphasized that the reason I read so much Victorian literature (and I am exposed to that part of it that is enduring) is that it is still so true and fresh today. Enduring art is meaningful at any time.

Lynne wrote: "Here is the link to Dover Beach.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

I'm glad that we are, once again, breathing air into the Victorian poets.

Ginny wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "What does it mean in the last line, "Every enduring poem was written today"? ..."

I imagine the author a young freshman, a prairie boy, determined, naive, and eager, busily writin..."

Wow. Nice analysis. Very helpful. Please join in for Browning and Tennyson as much as you can.

Peter wrote: "Lynne wrote: "Here is the link to Dover Beach.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

I'm glad that we are, once again, breathing air into the ..."

Me too Peter. You began a good work here. I was away from GR for awhile; I missed these awesome works. I would have loved to be a part of it.

"Every enduring poem was written today."-- and it could also be novel or play.

I think that's why we spend time with literature--the local details don't matter as much as the scope of humanity which does not change. We also have the "influence" of literature on how we read other works. The best example I can think of is the influence of TS Eliot on Shakespeare---one wants to say how could Eliot influence Shakespare? He was born 300 years later. But it's in the way that we can read Shakespeare now through the lens of having read Eliot that can deepen our appreciation of Shakespeare.

Peter wrote: "Lynne wrote: "Here is the link to Dover Beach.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."

I'm glad that we are, once again, breathing air into the ..."

They have always been breathing, Peter. Just "taking a breather". Sorry, I couldn't resist!

For those of you who are joining in on the Browning reads, Natalie has posted "Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister." The discussion of "My Last Duchess" took off rather quickly and so we decided to add this poem in between. If you liked the "Duchess" I think you will like this one as well. Please join us.

Natalie,

Do you want to post the two long Browning poems for this week? Or, should I? I loved Fra Lippo Lippi, although it was difficult to decipher at first. I will begin the other one soon.