Catholic Thought discussion

I have read the section on the fourth mansions three times and I still don’t fully understand it. I am confused about the Prayer of Quiet aka Spiritual Sweetness, consolations in prayer, and the Prayer of Recollection. This is what I have pieced together so far:

Consolations in prayer – “Consoled through our own meditations”, “springs from our own nature” and “ends in God”, also “comes from the virtuous acts we perform”.
Teresa compares these consolations to the water that comes from the aqueducts. These consolations come from our own thoughts and efforts like the work of building an aqueduct, which noisily fills up the water basin.

Prayer of Quiet (Spiritual Sweetness) – “Begins in God and ends in our human nature”. These consolations are compared to the water basin, which “fills soundlessly” because the water source is beside the basin, and long streams flow from this basin. These consolations bring “peace, quietude, and sweetness to our innermost selves.” We are not to seek these consolations; if God wills it, He will give them to us. This is the prayer where we are not to think too much, we are just to be aware.

Prayer of Recollection (Supernatural Recollection) – “Usually comes before the Prayer of Quiet”. This is where you hear and recognize God’s voice. “Recollection happens only when God wishes to grant us this favor” and when we begin to “detach from things of the world”. We begin to withdraw into ourselves. “The soul pays attention to whatever it is that the Beloved is working inside her.” Teresa says “In the Prayer of Recollection it isn’t necessary to abandon discursive meditation or mental activity.” Teresa compares this prayer to a natural flowing spring. So my question here is: Is this the flowing stream that comes from the silently filled basin in the Prayer of Quiet?

In chapter 3 Teresa jumps back and forth when describing the Prayer of Quiet and the Prayer of Recollection, so I may have gotten some of the characteristics confused, please correct me if I am wrong. Her thinking was hard for me to follow in this chapter.

Susan Margaret wrote: "I have read the section on the fourth mansions three times and I still don’t fully understand it. I am confused about the Prayer of Quiet aka Spiritual Sweetness, consolations in prayer, and the Pr..."

I am beginning to wonder how spiritual masters have reacted to her rambling writings. You see tidbits here and there that you can sink your teeth in, and just when you begin to get a grasp she leaves you dangling and wanders off. I find her style quite exhausting.


The main gist I got out of the fourth mansions are these:

"the important thing is not to think much, but to love much"

and

"It is clear that a dilation or enlargement of the soul takes place, as if the water proceeding from the spring had no means of running away, but the fountain had a device ensuring that, the more freely the water flowed, the larger became the basin...God works many more wonders in the soul, thus fitting and gradually disposing it to retain all that He gives it."

The only parallel I can draw here comes from my own experience in adoration. There are moments you feel really close to God and in the next moment its gone. To me these moments are in a sense eternal, because I can draw from them again and again, even if its been a long time. The metaphor of the ever-increasing fountain from which one can draw is perfect.

Kerstin wrote: "To me these moments are in a sense eternal, because I can draw from them again and again,"

Kerstin, I can relate to what you have said. I have had some of those moments you talk about. I too go back to those moments and receive comfort. They remind me that God loves me.

Not being familiar with the works of St. Teresa of Avila, I was unaware that she had labeled nine grades of prayer. While I was searching the internet to find more information about the Prayer of Recollection, I came across a Carmelite website and discovered this information. Apparently Teresa wrote about the first three grades of prayer in her autobiography, " The Life" and her other book "The Way of Perfection". The nine grades of prayer are as follows: Vocal Prayer, Discursive Meditation, Affective Mental Prayer, Acquired Recollection, Infused Recollection, Prayer of Quiet, Prayer of Simple Union , Prayer of Ecstatic Union, and lastly, Prayer of Transforming Union. Teresa has given more than one name to some of her prayers, so it makes things a bit confusing.

If you are interested in learning more about these prayers, here is a link to the Carmelite website that discuses Teresa's prayers:

http://ocarm.org/en/content/ocarm/st-...

Susan, that link was very helpful. Now I have to go back to the 4th mansion and see how it fills in what I did not understand. For me there was certainly a lot I didn't understand. I figured I needed at least another re-read to start getting it.

I had been using this chart as a help. It's not from a catholic website, but it was consolidated onto a page. Perhaps others might find it helpful.
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddh...

Thanks Manny. I like the chart. Graphs, charts, outlines, and numbered items help me greatly!

I too read the chapter twice stopping and reflecting on what I was reading, the second time around, trying to get a sense of the main flow of her journey here.

St. Teresa wrote about recollection earlier. She writes in Mansion 2 “the habit of recollection is not to be gained by force of arms, but with calmness”. She calls it “supernatural”, “involuntarily the eyes suddenly close and solitude is found”. We need Divine assistance. She uses the metaphor of a sea urchin and a tortoise. A soul retreats into itself. These creatures do it of their own will but we need the grace of God but first we must “renounce the world, in desire at least”.

She refers to Friar St. Peter of Alcantara (1499-1562) from whom she learned that “he who reasons less and tries to do the least does most in spiritual matters”.

St. Teresa distinguishes between recollection and meditation. In the former, using the spring and basin metaphor the water comes up filling the basin, which has no outlet, “and so wanders hither and thither in bewilderment, finding no place of rest”. The soul, like the basin, receives God’s “marvelous graces”, "more liberty of spirit" and is no longer distressed by the terror of hell.

I think that St. Teresa speaks of recollection and contemplation in the same vein as the goal at the end of journey from meditation. But it looks like we are only a short way up the prayer ladder, which Susan Margaret found and listed above.

Susan Margaret wrote: "I have read the section on the fourth mansions three times and I still don’t fully understand it. I am confused about the Prayer of Quiet aka Spiritual Sweetness, consolations in prayer, and the Pr..."

Susan Margaret, I think you summarized it well. Consolations are those moments of spiritual closeness that come from our efforts. We meditate on the Passion of Christ and are filled with sorrow for our sins or the incredible love God has to die for us. We pray before the Blessed Sacrament and feel held in God's tender embrace. We pray in nature and are filled with a sense of God's grandour that fills us with praise. We serve those in need and feel the affirmation of theMaster that is pleased with our service. The prayer of quiet does not come from our efforts. Nothing we do brings it about or disposes us for it. It is sheer gift. It comes unwarrented from God. At this stage, it is very brief, but its power expands our soul, causes us growth. Because I have never experienced this type of prayer, I can't quite get a handle on the difference between recollection and quiet. Teresa acknowledges the limitations of language in explaining these supernatural gifts and admits that she has no way of describing them to those who have not experienced them. I don't think her analogy of a spring and a basin are supposed to be quite as connected as your question implies. She is just grasping for images. An aquduct requires lots of work on the part of a human to bring down the water just as consolation brings spiritual gifts after lots of effort on our part. Where as springs just bubble up and fill a basin with no human effort like the prayer of quiet. Trying to find another image for recollection, she grasps at a stream which flows past, not exactly filling the basin, but bringing an endless flowing water stream close by without human effort.

The thing that struck me in this section is the warning not to aspire to gaining these supernatural gifts. We can't work for them or discipline ourselves to be deserving of them. They are pure gift. We should not be disappointed if we do not receive them nor worry that we are doing something wrong. Some are given this gift of the contemplative life and some are not. We should do what we can to serve God: penance, service to others, moral living and devotions and be content to be allowed to serve sucha great King in whatever way we are permitted. This is hard for me. I am ambitious. If there is a higher rung on a ladder, I want to climb it. I am forever comparing myself to the achievements of others. To simply serve with no expectations other than to love and please God is my challenge.

Irene wrote: "Susan Margaret wrote: "I have read the section on the fourth mansions three times and I still don’t fully understand it. I am confused about the Prayer of Quiet aka Spiritual Sweetness, consolation..."

Irene, thank you for your words. Your insight has helped me greatly with this chapter. I have not experience the quiet prayer either. I have not spent much time in the first three mansions for that matter.

I feel myself wanting to aspire to this way of prayer. It is disheartening to hear that these moments can only be given as a grace to God. To be honest, I felt the disappointment when reading the following excerpt from the book. I felt this way because I struggle enough with sin each day of my life.

"I mean that, however much we may practice meditation, however much we do violence to ourselves, and however many tears we shed, we cannot produce this water in those ways; it is given only to whom God wills to give it and often when the soul is not thinking of it at all."

At this mansion, St. Teresa is speaking of someone who does not want to sin at all. Please do not misunderstand me, I do not want to sin and offend God either. But when the chance to sin has come up and I willfully choose to sin (making it a mortal sin in many cases), I will reflect and know that it was bad what I did but not necessarily follow through with a plan to not offend God in that way again. These are pitfalls that I keep stepping in. Reading what Irene has said has helped me, though. I should not feel disappointed and I should not worry that I am so far off the mark in my relationship with God. Instead, I should see that our God is merciful. Why would I not want to follow and please a God that would give us these wonderful gifts without expectation.

Serving God by serving others in this world can be a wonderful thing. To will the good of another person without expecting grace is a tough pill to swallow but one that God asks us to take. To hear someone receiving this particular gift from God and the peace it brings is encouraging. Instead of viewing it as a list (I fed the poor this many times and clothed the naked this many times so I am guaranteed some grace and a spot in heaven), I need to see this story; this inspiring supernatural gift as a building of trust in my relationship with God.

I don't think I am doing a good job articulating the thought I have in my head. Maybe if I relate it to something I am trying to teach my four-year-old son:

Samuel, my four-year-old, has just recently tasted his first Hersey kiss. Now, each morning he gets up and he tries to be a "good boy" and make "good choices". He will clean up when I ask him right away, take turns with his siblings and even not fight with his younger brother. Each time he does something right, he says "Daddy, I am being a good boy. I think I am going to get some panda candy*."

He has this notion in his head because the first time I gave him the candy, it was because he was being really sweet and fun to hang around. I have been trying to tell him that it is not all the good choices he makes that will get him the candy. If he keeps on living this way he is going to resent me if I do not give him a piece of candy each time he puts his cars away or will associate his actions with good rewards always. I have been trying to give him the candy at different parts of the day and spontaneously. If he has not asked about candy in a while or enjoying a treat with him pops into my head, I will dish out the candy.

What I am trying to teach him is that being good and making good choices should be something he wants to do regardless of reward. The good choices he makes strengthens my relationship with him. I keep showing him love when he does something good because that is a natural reaction of mine as his father. If he makes a sad choice, there are natural consequences to that as well.

If I truly believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and only through him is there saving grace, then I should be content and want to live my life by His example. Knowing that it is very possible to receive quiet prayer (only through His will and not my effort) or a Hersey kiss if you will, should only strengthen my trust in a God that only wants the best for humankind. It should not be the sole motivator for doing good.

*He calls it panda candy because we leave the Hersey kisses in a jar shaped like a panda.

I think you did a very good job of explaining yourself. You are very clear. I like your analogy with your son. What struck me about it is that your son is acting and thinking appropriately for a 4 year old. Abstract thinking like valuing good for its own sake is a more mature insight than most 4 year olds can make. Reward & punishment morality is exactly where he should be developmentally. But, I am half a century older than he is. I should not still be living by a reward motivated morality. And, if I do expect a reward for my faithfulness, it should be the pleasure of knowing that I am serving God who loves me unconditionally.

Theresa does break from many of the spiritual writers of her age who emphasized extreme mortifications and scrupulous self condemnation for every venial sin. She believes that such practices are spiritually harmful, lead us to be too self-focused and ultimately leads to spiritual pride. Rather than fear of being punished by a God who we have displeased by our sin, we should focus on mirroring the incredible love we have in God. Of course, that is a much more mature spirituality. What kind of marriage would it be if we constantly worried about offending our spouse? Instead, the healthiest marriages are those when we are so deeply in love with the other and confident in the same love returned that the spouses wants and pleasures naturally surface whenever we make decisions. For Teresa, Christ is like a spouse, not a boss that needs to be pleased. Teresa is head over heals in love with Christ.

This is great. Thank you, Irene. You are helping me see St. Teresa's writings in a whole new light. If I wasn't participating in this book club, I probably would have glossed over most of these chapters.

There are some really great comments here that are helping me broaden my experience of all that St. Theresa is trying to convey in her writings, so thanks everyone, for sharing!

As couple of people have mentioned already, the fourth mansion starts a different mode in the journey for Theresa. One of the things I look for when I read is a structure to the work. The first three mansions as I see it comprise a unit, what I labeled in my book as the human effort mode. Each mansion in the first three requires an ongoing and increasingly greater effort on the part of the individual to progress. Each mansion then is an incremental gradation toward spiritual fulfillment. Once we get to the fourth mansion all human effort has been maximized and further progress requires divine grace. Progress from here can only be as a result of God’s increasing his grace to the individual. From mansions four onward I called this unit the supernatural assisted mode, though one might possibly split off the seventh mansion into its own unit. I need to think a little more on that last point. Early in the first chapter she says:

“It seems that, in order to reach these Mansions, one must have lived for a long time in the others; as a rule one must have been in those which we have just described, but there is no infallible rule about it, as you must often have heard, for the Lord gives when He wills and as He wills and to whom He wills, and, as the gifts are His own, this is doing no injustice to anyone.”

So in order to get to the fourth mansion, you would have needed to labor through the first three for quite a while. And at some point it seems God wills you into the fourth.

“It seems to me that the feelings which come to us from Divine things are as purely natural as these, except that their source is nobler, although these worldly joys are in no way bad. To put it briefly, worldly joys have their source in our own nature and end in God, whereas spiritual consolations have their source in God, but we experience them in a natural way and enjoy them as much as we enjoy those I have already mentioned, and indeed much more. Oh, Jesus! How I wish I could make myself clear about this! For I think I can see a very marked difference between these two things and yet I am not clever enough to make my meaning plain: may the Lord explain it for me!”

She then tells us about when she first reached the fourth mansion:

“My own experience of this state -- I mean of these favours and this sweetness in meditation -- was that, if I began to weep over the Passion, I could not stop until I had a splitting headache; and the same thing happened when I wept for my sins. This was a great grace granted me by Our Lord, and I will not for the moment examine each of these favours and decide which is the better of the two; I wish, however, that I could explain the difference between them. In the state I am now describing, the tears and longings sometimes arise partly from our nature and from the state of preparedness we are in; but nevertheless, as I have said, they eventually lead one to God. And this is an experience to be greatly prized, provided the soul be humble, and can understand that it does not make it any the more virtuous; for it is impossible to be sure that these feelings are effects of love, and, even so, they are a gift of God.”

I can’t say I understand it. The headache—and later in the chapter she describes the noises in her head as a “brimming river”—and the weeping over the Passion signals a new state. One reaches it through ”preparedness,” of which I assume are the labors of the first three mansions and through God’s gift.

Now if anyone thinks I’m off here, please correct me. I don’t want to sound like I’m confident in my reading. I’m not.

Manny, you may already know this, but Teresa is the patron saint of headache sufferers.

Susie I agree, the comments that everyone has been making here are very informative.

Actually, I am relieved that the other forms of prayer from the fourth mansion and up are gifts from God. If they were not gifts, I would probably not be able to achieve them on my own. I think my work will be cut out for me in just the first three mansions alone.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Manny, you may already know this, but Teresa is the patron saint of headache sufferers. ..."

Actually I didn't. Makes sense!

The thing I had known St. Theresa for was her prayer about how we are Christ's body and hands now on earth. Here is the beautiful John Michael Talbot song where he put it to music. This one shows the lyrics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF7Yb...

I loved her comments on nuns who go into swooning fits that last for hours and think they have reached some great spiritual state. She says that all they need is a good meal and some sleep and they will be cured of that. She is so sensable. She never confuses hystrianics for spirituality.

Irene, that is what I like about Teresa, she is a no nonsense nun.

Manny, thanks for sharing the song. I forgot to mention that Teresa is also the patron saint of writers.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Irene, that is what I like about Teresa, she is a no nonsense nun.

Manny, thanks for sharing the song. I forgot to mention that Teresa is also the patron saint of writers."
Susan, there's actually several patron saint of writers. I did look that up once. The primary saint however seems to be St. Francis DeSales. I don't recall who were the others, but I can see St. Theresa being one.

Before we ended the fourth mansion I wanted to touch on the last chapter. Chapter three of the fourth mansion is also important and perhaps we should identify a couple of points. Here’s the point about seeking God inside oneself:

“I do not think I have ever explained this before as clearly as here. When we are seeking God within ourselves (where He is found more effectively and more profitably than in the creatures, to quote Saint Augustine, who, after having sought Him in many places, found Him within) it is a great help if God grants us this favour. Do not suppose that the understanding can attain to Him, merely by trying to think of Him as within the soul, or the imagination, by picturing Him as there. This is a good habit and an excellent kind of meditation, for it is founded upon a truth -- namely, that God is within us. But it is not the kind of prayer that I have in mind, for anyone (with the help of the Lord, you understand) can practise it for himself. What I am describing is quite different. These people are sometimes in the castle before they have begun to think about God at all. I cannot say where they entered it or how they heard their Shepherd's call: it was certainly not with their ears, for outwardly such a call is not audible. They become markedly conscious that they are gradually retiring within themselves; anyone who experiences this will discover what I mean: I cannot explain it better. I think I have read that they are like a hedgehog or a tortoise withdrawing into itself; and whoever wrote that must have understood it well. These creatures, however, enter within themselves whenever they like; whereas with us it is not a question of our will -- it happens only when God is pleased to grant us this favour. For my own part, I believe that, when His Majesty grants it, He does so to people who are already leaving the things of the world. I do not mean that people who are married must actually leave the world -- they can do so only in desire: His call to them is a special one and aims at making them intent upon interior things. I believe, however, that if we wish to give His Majesty free course, He will grant more than this to those whom He is beginning to call still higher.”

Again she makes it very clear that you can’t get to the God inside you on your own; it has to be granted. Further she distinguishes between the Prayer of Quiet, which the prayer directly from the source, and the Prayer of Recollection, which is the one that one that comes through aquaducts.

“As I understand it, the soul whom the Lord has been pleased to lead into this Mansion will do best to act as I have said. Let it try, without forcing itself or causing any turmoil, to put a stop to all discursive reasoning, yet not to suspend the understanding, nor to cease from all thought, though it is well for it to remember that it is in God's presence and Who this God is. If feeling this should lead it into a state of absorption, well and good; but it should not try to understand what this state is, because that is a gift bestowed upon the will. The will, then, should be left to enjoy it, and should not labour except for uttering a few loving words, for although in such a case one may not be striving to cease from thought, such cessation often comes, though for a very short time.

I have explained elsewhere the reason why this occurs in this kind of prayer (I am referring to the kind which I began to explain in this Mansion). With it I have included this Prayer of Recollection which ought to have been described first, for it comes far below the consolations of God already mentioned, and is indeed the first step towards attaining them. For in the Prayer of Recollection it is unnecessary to abandon meditation and the activities of the understanding. When, instead of coming through conduits, the water springs directly from its source, the understanding checks its activity, or rather the activity is checked for it when it finds it cannot understand what it desires, and thus it roams about all over the place, like a demented creature, and can settle down to nothing. The will is fixed so firmly upon its God that this disturbed condition of the understanding causes it great distress; but it must not take any notice of this, for if it does so it will lose a great part of what it is enjoying; it must forget about it, and abandon itself into the arms of love, and His Majesty will teach it what to do next; almost its whole work is to realize its unworthiness to receive such great good and to occupy itself in thanksgiving.”

I grant you it is very confusing. Unfortunately St. Theresa jumps around and refers back to previous works and assumes we know them. So if I have correctly unwound her logic here, the water, which signifies consolations I think, from the prayer of recollection fills together from that of the Prayer of Quiet, all of which over flows the basin and infuses the soul. If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.