THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This thread is for those reading; The German War by Nicholas Stargardt.

Welcome to those interested in reading The German War by Nicholas Stargardt. This is a book that examines all aspects of life in German during World War 2. The New York Times described it as follows:
“The German War” takes us into the lives of men and women from all walks of life, as they fought, survived and suffered — grunts, tank commanders, staff officers; the P.O.W. camp guard who worried about corralling starving inmates into orderly soup lines and looked on unmoved as his Russian tutor was taken away to be shot; the sports-­obsessed Catholic who sheltered the occasional Jew in his gymnasium; young people re-­enacting pages from Ernst Jünger’s memoirs of Verdun; the hard-bitten Panzer commander who was forced to concede that Germans could learn lessons in heroism from Warsaw’s doomed insurgents; couples struggling to sustain unexpectedly long-distance relationships; the inconsolable spouse keeping a diary for a husband who was never to return from Stalingrad; the brazen “new woman” for whom the war offered the chance for shopping and sunbathing; the traumatized schizophrenic whose whirling delirium was made up of fragments of Goebbels’s boilerplate.

We will journey through this book together reading one part per week (70 - 90 pages approximately) which should give us time to discuss the issues, research and writing. It will be interesting also to contrast our reading with other viewpoints e.g. Richard J. Evan's The Third Reich At War, Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust and The Third Reich: A New History.

I look forward to this journey - I'm sure we'll learn lots about this disturbing regime which is full of lessons for posterity.

by Nicholas Stargardt

Looking forward to participating. I found the book a bit slow at the start with its focus on religion and the euthanasia campaign. But insightful re Germans knowledge of holecaust etce

Auw. I'll have to attack Evans' three-course banquet first then. But 2016 is young.

Having just read it (Library reservation), I'll sit on the sidelines and join in as you progress if that's okay folks.

Have started reading the book and saw a reference to 'Hermann Goring sandwiches' which were not rationed, and therefore popular with hungry workers. Would anyone know what this sandwich is made of? I was unable to find anything specific.

Dimitri wrote: "Auw. I'll have to attack Evans' three-course banquet first then. But 2016 is young."

Much more satisfying than a "Hermann Goring sandwich"!

Betsy wrote: "Have started reading the book and saw a reference to 'Hermann Goring sandwiches' which were not rationed, and therefore popular with hungry workers. Would anyone know what this sandwich is made of?..."

Surplus medals, after he caused too many blinded drivers on Unter Den Linden to crash into eachother.

This week we're reading Part One: Defending the Attack

Part One looks at the first year or two of World War 2. The title of the part hints at the German view of the war as a defensive struggle, with concepts of encirclement similar to at the outset of the Great War.

Chapter One: Unwelcome War This chapter looks at the opening moments through the eyes of a cast of characters (helpfully sketched in a list at the beginning of the book), and highlights the context of how Hitler created a subterfuge of apparent Polish abuse. "Hitler had succeeded in portraying himself as the champion of an injured and besieged German minority, mobilising reservoirs of resentment at the loss of territories in the post-1918 settlement". The book describes subtly how soldiers descended into atrocities against Poles.

Chapter Two: Closing Ranks This chapter talks about the strength (or otherwise) of national solidarity. Rationing was carefully managed but resulted in resentments. The effect of fathers being away at war, and fears of juvenile delinquency sparked fear but also resolve.

Chapter Three: Extreme Measures This chapter reveals the actions taken against conscientious objectors. Religious thinkers and leaders found accommodation with Nazism, seeing the possibility of 'national rebirth' and rolling back the mistakes that had seen God hand Germany defeat in 1918. The chapter discusses coercion and its limits, what Stargardt describes as "a two-speed police state". It struck hard against traditional enemies such as Communists, Freemasons, Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses , but for 'ordinary Germans' the Gestapo "continued to calibrate its violence". It did begin a program of euthanasia, although this wasn't necessarily the result of Nazi ideology only. In terms of the Jews the state proceeded surprisingly cautiously, indicating continuing hope of an accommodation with Britain and France.

I found it surprising that the euthanasia program, killing psychiatric patients by the end of the war had killed more people than the number of German Jews killed by the Nazis. Also the programme was largely directed by doctors and bureaucrats rather than the Nazi core institutions.

I must admit I found that difficult to believe about the psychiatric patients too although I suppose it's because of the 'German' Jews qualification.

The euthanasia program was called the "T-4" program, and was conducted by medical professionals in order to reduce costs and the increased patient care. There ideal was to cleanse the un-pure, mentally feeble, handicapped, etc. The only reason it stopped was that Pope Pius became involved and threatened to cut ties with the Catholic Church in Germany, and many Protestant leaders such Bishop Galen and Martin Niemoller also exposed it. To Hitler it became an embarrassment and they halted the project. that did not mean the targeted people were safe, they were simply warehoused until later when they could be "relocated" along with Jews and others.

Thanks Colin for that context. The book mentions it continuing to the end if the war, presumably referring to the period when it went 'underground '. I hope there is some good detail on the opposition from the church, quite a pivotal moment although also telling perhaps in its exceptionalism? Have any of your interviewees offered views on the programme?
That said the old interpretation that the church was silent on the suffering of the Jews certainly bears re-examination.
Chapter two is quite interesting in how the church coexisted with the Nazis and promoted quite nationalistic ideas. Germany seemed to be God's chosen people and after their betrayal by the Jews and Communists in 1918 they were on the path to national rebirth, redemption and their 'rightful place'.

Just finished reading the first two chapters. First reaction: great book, detailed and capturing the mood of the German population.

I was surprised how the Germans were brainwashed by the Nazi propaganda and had the feeling they had justice on their side.

One little detail that catched my attention was the fact that the author mentiones that during the so-called raid on the German radio station (the Gleiwitz incident) he tells us that the German who broadcasted the Polish message was subsequently murdered by his SS comrades ... As far as I know, this was not the case. Rather, there was a German man captured and killed by the Gestapo by lethal injection the previous day, who was left at the site dressed in Polish uniform, pretending to be killed during the attack.

We'll have to do a bit of research on that point. The elaborate plan to justify the attack on Poland is very interesting - it was fascinating how the Polish police largely stymied the plan for terrorist attacks across Poland against German newspapers, memorials etc.

Bevan wrote: "I found it surprising that the euthanasia program, killing psychiatric patients by the end of the war had killed more people than the number of German Jews killed by the Nazis. Also the programme w..."

I found it interesting too how some people with family housed in the "hospitals" and institutions had quite considerable correspondence including some receiving detailed letters back from staff.

Re the Polish façade, Anthony Beevor in The Second World War says:
"They would fake an attack both on a German customs post and on the radio station near the border town of Gleiwitz, then put out a message in Polish. The SS would shoot some drugged prisoners from Sachsenhausen concentration camp dressed in Polish uniforms, and leave their bodies as evidence."

Will do some more searching

Bou wrote: "Just finished reading the first two chapters. First reaction: great book, detailed and capturing the mood of the German population.

I was surprised how the Germans were brainwashed by the Nazi pro..."

Unfortunately there are for to many examples of such things happening all over the world at various times. Many within the framework of Modern times and some times it seems far to crazy to be believed after the fact, but that doesn't stop it from happening over and over. Fortunately as a whole most examples are not as deadly as they were in Nazi controlled Germany.

Dj wrote: "Unfortunately there are for to many examples of such things happening all over the world at various times."

I couldn't agree more with you DJ.

Re the Gleiwitz incident, this article is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wo...

Bou, I can't find any other information that verifies the book's claim that the one who spoke on the microphone was then shot. There is a great amount of detail in Kommando: German Special Forces of World War Two which I'm going to look into more (some can be read on Google Books). Stargardt's sources on this matter unfortunately are all in German which I can't read!

Bevan wrote: "Re the Gleiwitz incident, this article is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wo...

Bou, I can't find any other information that verifi..."

Hi Bevan, I managed to find one of the German sources mentioned by the author here:
http://www.georg-elser-arbeitskreis.d...
(Runzheimer: der Überfall auf den sender Gleiwitz / The attack on the transmitter Gleiwitz).

I've read the article and nowhere is mentioned that one of the SS'ers was shot and left at the station. So it seems to me that Nicholas Stargardt rather misinterpreted his mainly German sources on this point.

The article further states that the attack was poorly organized and prepared, supporting the author's claim of "flimsy, and [not able to convince] an international audience or even the Wehrmacht crimes investigators sent to these scenes".

Thats great info Bou. Kommando: German Special Forces of World War Two has an interesting summing up after a very detailed account :
"At Gleiwitz, with the exception of the two duty staff in the studio, all the characters were involved in the plot. Surely it would have been less bother had two or three men driven up to the doors, carried out the pistol shooting in the studio and made the appropriate noises as the broadcast was being made? Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that Heydrich and his senior commanders had seen too many spy films and read too many spy thrillers. It can only be that they thought that their elaborate charades were the way in which agents and undercover men were supposed to operate and so the leaders of the SD played out their parts believing as they did so that this eccentric behaviour was the norm in clandestine activities."

The Germans learned from this episode, thus creating the Brendenburg Kommando under Adrian von Foelkersam, and Otto Skorzeney took it to the next level.

I found Part One to be of interest certainly, but the reading has definitely picked up in Parts Two and Three as the war progresses. For me, it is so telling that the confidence of Part One, despite some of the horrible measures taken against Germany's own citizens, was based on successes against questionable opponents, before and early in the war. Then the operations in Norway, the Low Countries, and France helped contribute to this "Victory Disease" --until reality set in.

Betsy wrote: "I found Part One to be of interest certainly, but the reading has definitely picked up in Parts Two and Three as the war progresses. For me, it is so telling that the confidence of Part One, despit..."

So what's our assignment for next week? :-)
Part two?

Betsy wrote: "I found Part One to be of interest certainly, but the reading has definitely picked up in Parts Two and Three as the war progresses. For me, it is so telling that the confidence of Part One, despit..."

I found that aspect interesting too Betsy as the troops, civilians realised (to varying degrees)that spring and early Summer 1943 were bringing a change in fortunes and German invincibility was challenged.

Of great interest to to me was what the civilians back home in the Reich did indeed know as some people from letters and also as some came back for leave - the giving of leave if a family was bombed out was a way of seeing loved ones and sharing information for those not reading the book - and also how different families told each other in different ways.

Right, onto week two and Part Two: Masters of Europe

This part looks at the first couple of years of the war. As the title suggests, Germany achieves startling successes on the battlefield and waits for Britain to submit.

Chapter Four: Breaking Out ‘Holland and Belgium are the new objectives for attack by the Western powers. English and French troops have marched into Holland and Belgium. We are hitting back.’ France, Belgium and Holland are swiftly dispatched, 'the Tommies' apparently abandoning their allies at the first sign of attack according to propaganda. Once again Hitler appears to offer peace to the British and is spurned. Wholesale bombing begins on both sides and Germany belatedly begins evacuating children.

Chapter Five: Winners and Losers Men miss their wives and girlfriends back home, and/or seek fulfilment where they are stationed. The soldiers enjoy bountiful 'treats' in France, and learn to appreciate French culture. Poles are resettled or taken as slave labourers. The Reich seeks to ensure relationships between labourers and Germans don't develop. Opposition by the church to the T-4 euthenasia program has mixed results, and efforts to suppress the church are reined in by Hitler. After a one year hiatus killings of adult psychiatric patients resumed.

This part talks about the euthenasia programme but more in reference to adult mental patients. I was doing some cross reading of The Third Reich At War which has good coverage of the T-4 program. There is reference to the ghastly Hermann Pfannmüller who preferred to let the children starve to death. One visitor to his ward recorded:
"As he spoke these words, [Pfannmüller] and a nurse from the ward pulled a child from its crib. Displaying the child like a dead rabbit, he pontificated with the air of a connoisseur and a cynical smirk something like this: ‘With this one, for example, it will still take two to three days.’ I can still clearly visualize the spectacle of this fat and smirking man with the whimpering skeleton in his fleshy hand, surrounded by other starving children. Furthermore, the murderer then pointed out that they did not suddenly withdraw food, but instead slowly reduced rations."

As Stalin said, "How many divisions does the Pope have?" By the way Betsy, is your avatar Marshall Davout?

One L in Marshal.....

It certainly is. I also have the full length portrait on my wall. ;-)

Betsy wrote: "It certainly is. I also have the full length portrait on my wall. ;-)"

He's my hero :)

The position of the papacy with regard to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust is fascinating but has also been the subject of much misinformation.
This video with Martin Gilbert although not of great quality does point out aome interesting facts around this issue.

https://youtu.be/HyrCbq4W5D4

Betsy wrote: "It certainly is. I also have the full length portrait on my wall. ;-)"

Note for new flat: one extra room for bookcases, one more extra room for large portraits of favorite commanders :D

Great idea! ;-)

Reading about the fate of the Jewish childeren discovered on the first floor of a house in the Ukranian town and the subsequent effort by Lt-Col Helmuth Groscurt to save them from the hands of the SS. At the end they were shot by the SS.

Having children myself in the same age, the very thought of my own children to share the similar fate in the hands of these beasts makes me angry and disgusted at the crimes permitted against the Jews by the German SS during the war.

Betsy wrote: "That is probably one of the great "What ifs" of WW II. Could Pius XI or Pius XII have made a difference if they had spoken out? "

For something on the other side of that question, look into and . It seems Pius XI, especially, did what he could to oppose Hitler before the war, but found himself stymied by various groups, including some within the Curia. As yet, I haven't read , but it brings out Pius XII's support for the German anti-Nazi underground, even sanctioning assassination attempts. With these going on behind the scenes, perhaps it was felt too dangerous to draw even more attention to themselves by protesting even more?

IMO, both Popes also limited themselves by their being surrounded, quite literally, by Italy, and feeling physically defenseless against Fascist force. History is full of popes who have been seized or driven out of Rome by armies, perhaps they didn't want to repeat that?

I don't pretend to be an expert on this controversial topic, but after reading Kreutzer's book it would seem that both men made the greatest effort to maintain their Church and protect Catholics (not surprisingly), especially after the historic agreement with Mussolini that created the Vatican state. How much they did to help Jews and other persecuted peoples in the years before and during the war will probably never be known definitively.

It is just unfortunate that the dangers of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were not realized in many cases because of the fear of the the Communists until it was too late.

Bou wrote: "Reading about the fate of the Jewish childeren discovered on the first floor of a house in the Ukranian town and the subsequent effort by Lt-Col Helmuth Groscurt to save them from the hands of the ..."

It's a popular culture source, but there is a lot of thruth to The Patriot w/ Mel Gibson "when you have a family of your own, you will understand". Having a toddler nephew already validates the quote regarding any wilful violence.

I had been aware that Pius XII was antisemitic and had basically kep quiet about the holocaust etc, I suppose from interpretations derived from books like Hitler's Pope. Having come across that video (and yes the interviewers appear to be debunking that view) I looked into the December 1942 message and it does seem pretty clear that the claims the Vatican was silent are wrong. Something worth reading further about I think.
Stargardt certainly portrays the complex views of the German church leaders, whose opposition where present was pretty ineffective. It will be interesting to see what evidence there is for 'underground' activity by the church.

I'd like to get hold of a copy of this as it looks like it can add something to the argument for my own knowledge:

Twisted Cross: The German Christian Movement in the Third Reich by Doris L. Bergen

Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bolsheviks', with soldiers self censoring. The book does have letters from one or two soldiers with moral issues. As someone from a background where there wasnt any antisemitism as I grew up I still struggle to comprehend the evidence that virtually every 'character' in this book believed Jews were plotting against them, the architects of Soviet communism etc.
It is so frightening how such a load of baloney could be ao widely swallowed. You cant help thinking that the old excuse that Germans were victims of propaganda has a kernel of truth, although of course antisemitic beliefs didn't suddenly appear in 1933 when the Nazis came to power.

Hard reading.

This week we're reading Part 3: The Shadow of 1812 . This section tells the story of the last months of German triumpalism as they invade the USSR, and the tide begins to turn.

Chapter 6: German Crusade As the title suggests, this chapter recounts the beginnings as the Germans went "into action against this conspiracy of the Jewish-Anglo-Saxon warmongers and Jewish power-holders of the Bolshevik Centre in Moscow...". There are powerful accounts of the campaign from the point of view of the soldiers, and the strong support for the attack on the home front. A chapter of atrocities and the beginnings of the unraveling of the campaign as the Wehrmacht attempts to encircle Moscow.

Chapter 7: The First Defeat On the 6th of December 1941 the Russians begin a counterattack against the two German pincers to the north and south of Moscow. New Soviet troops brought from the east, and the poorly equipped state of the Wehrmacht in a harsh winter result in major losses and retreat. The sense of a turning tide reaches the home front where for the first time the Nazis face the fear of bad morale, bringing memories of November 1918. Hitler recalibrates expectations of the length of the war in a speech promising ‘that, despite everything, the years of battle will be shorter than the time of that long and blessed peace which will be the result of the present struggle’.

I have to admit I have found this Part 3 to be the most interesting so far. Except for its tragic consequences, Hitler's speech about Russian provocation, aided by the British to create a 2-front war, and how he had been forced to keep silent is laughable. Then to read of the reaction: "Our Fuehrer! He has had to bear it all alone, so as not to trouble his people." Tragic blindness.

Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bolsheviks', with ..."

Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bolsheviks', with ..."

Betsy wrote: "I have to admit I have found this Part 3 to be the most interesting so far. Except for its tragic consequences, Hitler's speech about Russian provocation, aided by the British to create a 2-front w..."

Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bolsheviks', with ..."

Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bolsheviks', with ..."

I think it is important to consider how pervasive anti-Semitism was throughout Europe and Russia and even here is the U.S. I can remember signs in hotels at the check-in desks that read "No Jews!" , and radio shows that spoke vehemently against Jews and Catholics (we were hiding guns in our basements to kill our neighbors when the Papist invasion started...and it wasn't just in the Jim Crow South. Most clubs in our country did not allow Jews into the 80s and I am sure there are clubs today where they are still barred. Please know many co-ops in NY still do not allow Jews. So it wasn't an exclusively German concept, and pogroms were common occurrences in much of Europe.

Kate wrote: "Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations against 'Judeo-Bols..."

Kate: It was an "exclusively German concept" to annihilate the Jews as a race. Subtle social discrimination, no matter how unsavory, isn't the same as genocide.

Have found it interesting to explore this. I can recommend several books. They might be considered war novels in the light of the war going on inside each of us. Jacob Needleman: Why Can't We Be Good. Interesting insight into how emotions are more powerful than rational thought and the interesting ways in which people who believe in the same values can fight each other: Jonathan Haidt, The Righteous Mind.

I noticed as the book progresses, the author more and more draws from the experiences from the diaries and notes from several German soldiers. You kind of build a relationship with them and their folks back home, even if some of them are die-hard nazi's.

The German population more and more becomes aware of the genocide against the Jews and starts explaining the war events (for example the bombing of the cities) as being a vengeance by the 'international Jewry' for the German crimes.

I must admit that the German population as of today is still burdened by their past. I have a lot of German colleagues and although I'm from a pre-war generation and don't associate them with their country's war time past, I notice that the war is still a sensitive subject between them. 'Don't mention the war' is still valid in this case.

Manray9 wrote: "Kate wrote: "Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations agains..."

not to nit pick, but Judaism only became a race after the creation of the Nuremberg Laws, otherwise it is just a religion, not an ethnic group. Are Catholics a race? Staling killed more Jews during his reign than anyone in history, only over a much longer period in history, along with 25 million Ukrainians and another 35 million others throughout the gulag system and outright executions. The Germans simply perfected industrialized murder and were more efficient.

Manray9 wrote: "Kate wrote: "Bevan wrote: "Yes that does look good. It is so complex as are individual motivations.

Reading chapter 6 it is remarkable how few personal viewpoints of the killing operations agains..."

Germans, Nazi or otherwise have no exclusive claim to genocide, before or after WWII.