The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

For the post with the shortlist, click here.

Longlist:

- A General Theory of Oblivion by José Eduardo Agualusa, translated from the Portuguese by Daniel Hahn (Angola, Archipelago Books)

- Arvida by Samuel Archibald, translated from the French by Donald Winkler (Canada, Biblioasis)

- Nowhere to Be Found by Bae Suah, translated from the Korean by Sora Kim-Russell (South Korea, AmazonCrossing)

- The Meursault Investigation by Kamel Daoud, translated from the French by John Cullen (Algeria, Other Press)

- French Perfume by Amir Tag Elsir, translated from the Arabic by William M. Hutchins (Sudan, Antibookclub)

- The Story of the Lost Child by Elena Ferrante, translated from the Italian by Ann Goldstein (Italy, Europa Editions)

- Sphinx by Anne Garréta, translated from the French by Emma Ramadan (France, Deep Vellum)

- The Physics of Sorrow by Georgi Gospodinov, translated from the Bulgarian by Angela Rodel (Bulgaria, Open Letter)

- Signs Preceding the End of the World by Yuri Herrera, translated from the Spanish by Lisa Dillman (Mexico, And Other Stories)

- The Sleep of the Righteous by Wolfgang Hilbig, translated from the German by Isabel Fargo Cole (Germany, Two Lines Press)

- Moods by Yoel Hoffmann, translated from the Hebrew by Peter Cole (Israel, New Directions)

- Beauty Is a Wound by Eka Kurniawan, translated from the Indonesian by Annie Tucker (Indonesia, New Directions)

- The Complete Stories by Clarice Lispector, translated from the Portugues by Katrina Dodson (Brazil, New Directions)

- The Story of My Teeth by Valeria Luiselli, translated from the Spanish by Christina MacSweeney (Mexico, Coffee House Press)

- Tram 83 by Fiston Mwanza Mujila, translated from the French by Roland Glasser (Democratic Republic of the Congo, Deep Vellum)

- The Body Where I Was Born by Guadalupe Nettel, translated from the Spanish by J. T. Lichtenstein (Mexico, Seven Stories Press)

- The Things We Don't Do by Andrés Neuman, translated from the Spanish by Nick Caistor and Lorenza Garcia (Argentina, Open Letter)

- I Refuse by Per Petterson, translated from the Norwegian by Don Bartlett (Norway, Graywolf Press)

- War, So Much War by Mercè Rodoreda, translated from the Catalan by Maruxa Relaño and Martha Tennent (Spain, Open Letter)

- One Out of Two by Daniel Sada, translated from the Spanish by Katherine Silver (Mexico, Graywolf Press)

- Berlin by Aleš Šteger, translated from the Slovene by Brian Henry, Forrest Gander, and Aljaž Kovac (Slovenia, Counterpath)

- The Big Green Tent by Ludmilla Ulitskaya, translated from the Russian by Polly Gannon (Russia, FSG)

- Murder Most Serene by Gabrielle Wittkop, translated from the French by Louise Rogers Lalaurie (France, Wakefield Press)

- The Four Books by Yan Lianke, translated from the Chinese by Carlos Rojas (China, Grove Press)

- Mirages of the Mind by Mushtaq Ahmed Yousufi, translated from the Urdu by Matt Reeck and Aftab Ahmad (India, New Directions)

Goodreads list here: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/9...

Still adding the longlisting to GR book records, looking up prices.
Bought the Bae Suah - I was always going to if it was longlisted.

I posted some random thoughts on my blog which I'll place here as well:

-This list features books from an astounding twenty-one countries. Only two countries feature more than once: France has two books on the list, and Mexico excelled with four.

-The books represent sixteen languages, with a few taking a larger portion: Portuguese has two on the list, but both Spanish and French have five apiece.

-Though still outnumbered, female authors did better on this year’s longlist than in years past. Nine of the authors above are female.

-As for U.S. publishers, there are eighteen represented. Those with multiple books are Deep Vellum (2), Graywolf Press (2) New Directions (4), and Open Letter (3).

-There is overlap with the recently unveiled longlist Man Booker International Prize: seven of the thirteen titles on that longlist were eligible for this year’s Best Translated Book Award, and four of those are on both lists: A General Theory of Oblivion, The Story of the Lost Child, Tram 83, and The Four Books (though Eka Kurniawan has a book on each list).

-I myself have read only four of the twenty-five titles: Arvida (which I read because it was shortlisted for last years Giller Prize), The Physics of Sorrow, The Things We Don’t Do, and Murder Most Serene. All were strong books in their ways, though I only pegged The Physics of Sorrow and Murder Most Serene (which I just finished) as personal longlistees. I’m personally happy to see The Things We Don’t Do on here. On this site we also have a review of Sphinx, from none other than judge P.T. Smith — we should have seen that coming . . . of course, we did.

-What didn’t make it that I expected would? Any books by Nobel laureate Patrick Modiano. He had three eligible books: After the Circus, Paris Nocturne, and So You Don’t Get Lost in the Neighborhood. Did they work against each other, splitting Modiano’s votes?

-Speaking of Nobel laureates who failed to make the cut, Mario Vargas Llosa’s The Discreet Hero and Orhan Pamuk’s A Strangeness in My Mind (which did make the Man Booker International list) were left off.

-While not Nobel laureates, Milan Kundera’s The Festival of Insignificance and Haruki Murakami’s Wind/Pinball are also not going to win the BTBA this year.

-What didn’t make it that I hoped would?

Any of the three excellent books by Enrique Vila-Matas, though my preferred title was Because She Never Asked. Perhaps as I speculated above with Modiano, they counted against each other, splitting Vila-Matas’s votes.

Either of the two César Aira books that were eligible, and I’m very surprised The Musical Brain didn’t. Here we are waiting for a collection of Aira’s stories for years, and when we get it it’s as brilliant as we’d hoped! Oh well . . . we can still go out and enjoy it even if it isn’t on the list.

-What’s going to be on the shortlist? I don’t know, but let's do what we can to have fun guessing!

Yes, there was a silly number of very well received Mexican books this year - didn't expect as many as four of them on the list though.

The only book that wasn't on my radar at all was the One Out of Two, though a few others I'd not seen mentioned for months, like Berlin. Mirages of the Mind & Murder Most Serene was only aware of in the last few days via your, Tony's and Orthofer's posts.

The Elsir is a slight surprise though think I saw it on BookRiot. I've read another of his books, Telepathy (released over here by Bloomsbury when they still had their Qatar partnership, whilst French Perfume isn't even on Amazon UK). Telepathy wasn't bad, though the main interest was the setting, plot not terribly original; poorer reception from a few other GR members. Presuming that French Perfume is a bit better.

Nice to have an excuse to read more Per Petterson, and the choice of which one made, as I loved Out Stealing Horses, though really I've so many books to get through as it is...

The Big Green Tent is one I've been looking at for ages, but the prices for imported copies/ebooks are a bit silly. Turns out Picador are publishing it here early next year, think that was one where there was some fuss with different translations being commissioned, saw an article ages ago.

I still don't understand what some see in The Story of My Teeth, and to a lesser extent The Things We Don't Do as I at least liked some of the stories in that.

People should feel able to post about the poetry longlist too.
I know a couple of people on GR who've read titles from it, and others that perhaps deserved to be longlisted. Opinions on the poetry would be very welcome. It always looks interesting but I never seem to get round to it, and mostly read older poetry.

The odd voting system does seem to count against authors with more than one eligible book. There ought to be more scope for discussion and transferring of votes.

Mexico one is interesting as there does seem to be a clear UK vs US divide in appreciation of LatAm literature if one compares IFFP/MBi to BTBA, I guess for obvious geographical reasons.

I made it over here!

Goodreads is a tad too close to 'social media' for my taste. I signed up a few years ago, took a look around and quickly retreated...until this morning. But here I am.

I've read none of the longlist this year, having spent the last year essentially reading nothing less than 500 years old. I couldn't resist several eligible Dalkeys, including the 5 Korean, but nothing seemed a longlist yes to me.

I'm going to try and read 9 of the 10 books I think likely to be shortlisted before the shortlist is announced (I loath Ferrante). I'll post comments to the various threads.

I made it over here!
Hooray! I hope that it works for you. The intent is to keep the good things from the forum, utilize some of the things from GoodReads, and hopefully continue on as a community -- and you're an essential part!

Yes great to see you back Lascosas. Would love your thoughts on which of the 10 might make the shortlist.

From the Dalkey Korean books, I thought Son of Man was a genuine contender (as did Michael O from the Complete Review).

Lascosas wrote: "I made it over here!

Goodreads is a tad too close to 'social media' for my taste. I signed up a few years ago, took a look around and quickly retreated...until this morning. But here I am.

I've r..."

Welcome :)

Hi all!

I've read four of the books on the list. The Meursault Investigation, Sphinx, Murder Most Serene and The Sleep of the Righteous. I've a few others sitting on the pile waiting to be read - but other than Tram 83 I won't promise that I'll get to any of them.

Of the ones I've read - I'd be be willing to bet both Sphinx & Murder Most Serene will make the shortlist. And I could see Sphinx taking the prize.

The Sleep of the Righteous, which I found a bit over-hyped by reviewers (I honestly don't see what everyone else sees in the book), will probably be shortlisted too. Since we're here - can anyone explain to me what I'm missing re: that book??? I am completely baffled.

Great to see you here, Lascosas.

I find most of this list difficult to rank, excluding the two I didn't like much. In particular, almost nothing to separate Tram 83, The Meursault Investigation, Sphinx, Nowhere to Be Found and possibly The Physics of Sorrow. At the time I read Sphinx, I nitpicked at some things, but over time the rest of the book has overshadowed that. And as a translation, it's obviously an incredible piece of work.

Shortlist out tomorrow - any thoughts / predictions?

Actually I've nothing to add to thoughts over on the dynamic ranking list, as I haven't managed to get to any of the other books. And I haven't seen much by way of shadow juries etc in the blogging world either comparing the novels, albeit I may just not be following the right people.

And this does highlight what to me is a major practical issue with the BTBA from a "spectator" perspective. A longlist of 25 books it too long and 3 weeks between long- and short-list too short to properly form one's own view. I'm still waiting some of for the books I ordered to even arrive in the post, let alone having time to read them all.

The BTBA jury generally produces a stronger panel of books, but the MBI (and main Man Booker) does the format so much better in terms of generating something people can actually follow.

Question for those stateside. How much coverage does the BTBA get in the mainstream media? That's another thing the Man Booker brand does very well.

Chad at Three Percent has given some clues.

8 female translators, 5 female authors, some overlap with MBI, 9 countries, 8 languages and 8 publishers

I am guessing from this
Nowhere to be Found, Story of the Lost Child, Sphinx, Sleep of the Righteous, Complete Stories, Physics of Sorrow, Beauty is a Wound, Tram 83, Murder Most Serene, Moods

Or Mersault Investigation for Tram 83 - both fit in with my list and the clues, and both are shortlist candidates

Biggest clues are the female translators and one language must have 3 books, 2 from same country. I am guessing France for that but it could be Spanish/Mexico in which case my list will be completely wrong!

I love the clues! Let's see, to help with the categories:

-9 Countries: The original list came from 21 countries; the only ones with more than one book are France with two and Mexico with four.

-8 Languages: The original list featured 16 languages, with three languages getting more than one: Portuguese (2), Spanish (5), and French (5).

-Overlap with the MBI Shortlist: He doesn't say how many, but the MBI shortlist has three BTBA longlisters: A General Theory of Oblivion, The Story of the Lost Child, and The Four Books.

-8 Publishers: The original list had 18 different publishers. Those with multiple are Deep Vellum (2), Graywolf (2), New Directions (4), and Open Letter (3).

-Half written by women: By my count (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the original list had nine books by women, so five of the following are on the shortlist: Nowhere to Be Found, The Story of the Lost Child, Sphinx, The Complete Stories of Clarice Lispector, The Story of My Teeth, The Body Where I Was Born, War, So Much War, The Big Green Tent, Murder Most Serene.

-Eight translators are women: . . . I'm running late to something, so I'll have to return to this . . . In the meantime, I'd love to hear more guesses!

Per Chad Post, only 5 of my 10 are correct. Which is pretty poor - a random guess would average 4!

So I suspect the Mexico/Spanish vs France/French is one big error.

But that is another clue for the rest of you.

1) Signs Preceding the End of the World
(And Other Stories, Mexico, Spanish, M author, F translator)
2) The Story of My Teeth
(Coffee House, Mexico, Spanish, F author, F translator)
3) War So Much War
(Open Letter, Spain, Catalan, F author, 2x F translators - clue said number of F translators but not number of books with F translators)
4) Clarice Lispector Complete Stories
(New Directions, Brazil, Portuguese, F author, F translator)
5) Sphinx
(Deep Vellum, France, F author, F translator)
6) The Story of the Lost Child
(Europa, Italy, F author, F translator, overlap with MBI shortlist)
*7 female translators up to here*
7) Moods
(New Directions, Hebrew, M author, M translators)
8) The Four Books
(Grove, Chinese, M author, M translator, MBI shortlist overlap)
9) The Meursault Investigation
(Other Press, French, Algeria, M author, M translator)
10) The Physics of Sorrow
(Open Letter, Bulgaria, M author, F translator)
[5 of these books on Paul's main list. Just swapped Moods for Mirages as I'd miscounted there, thinking I'd also included Nowhere to Be Found... which I'd personally much rather see on there than Story of My Teeth]


Are there 3 books from New Directions (so also Mirages of the Mind, Urdu, M author, M translators), or 2 from ND and 2 from Open Letter?

Can't find it now but a while ago I saw a tweet that there had been discussion about portrayal of female characters by male authors and on that basis I didn't include Beauty is a Wound (also saw another negative opinion on that book from a judge) and Tram 83, think there might be doubts about Arvida and French Perfume, and that there might be more positivity about General Theory (Portuguese another possibility for a language with 2 books from 2 different countries).

Antonomasia wrote: "1) Signs Preceding the End of the World
(And Other Stories, Mexico, Spanish, M author, F translator)
2) The Story of My Teeth
(Coffee House, Mexico, Spanish, F author, F translator)
3) War So Much ..."

Looks a good guess, although I'd also be very disappointed if Story of My Teeth made it and Nowhere to be Found didn't.

Tweet or mail it to Chad Post at threepercent and you'll get a score out of 10, we'll get more of a clue, and you may even win the prize.

I just looked at Twitter and someone who guessed seven of the same titles I did got six right. (Should have looked earlier.) Though they'll be asleep in the US at the moment. Wonder if they'd even have time to look at these things before the announcement in the morning.
(Can't win the prize then, but I'd find it a waste posting books over here, donate them to public libraries or particularly broke students there and I'd be happy with no-obligation e-ARCs of titles I was interested in.)

Antonomasia wrote: "I just looked at Twitter and someone who guessed seven of the same titles I did got six right. (Should have looked earlier.) "

I do think Chad sets the bar a little high on winning his prize. There are, by my calculation, over 3 million (3,268,760) possible shortlists. Although the clues do help!

Have to say I'm yet to embrace e-reading and wonder if I ever will.

Yeah, I guess that as a non-profit which doesn't sell huge numbers of books (Open Letter haven't got their Ferrante - yet) they can't afford to do loads of giveaways.
Interesting to hear the total number of possible shortlists. I wonder what the number of possible combinations of books fitting the clues is. Can imagine a rudimentary program to do that, but would still take quite a while.

Antonomasia wrote: "Can imagine a rudimentary program to do that, but would still take quite a while. "

actually with the clues including the 4 scores out of 10 Chad has given I suspect we pretty much have enough info - indeed I'm yet to find a combination that fits them all

A General Theory of Oblivion by José Eduardo Agualusa, translated from the Portuguese by Daniel Hahn (Angola, Archipelago Books)

Arvida by Samuel Archibald, translated from the French by Donald Winkler (Canada, Biblioasis)

The Story of the Lost Child by Elena Ferrante, translated from the Italian by Ann Goldstein (Italy, Europa Editions)

The Physics of Sorrow by Georgi Gospodinov, translated from the Bulgarian by Angela Rodel (Bulgaria, Open Letter)

Signs Preceding the End of the World by Yuri Herrera, translated from the Spanish by Lisa Dillman (Mexico, And Other Stories)

Moods by Yoel Hoffmann, translated from the Hebrew by Peter Cole (Israel, New Directions)

The Complete Stories by Clarice Lispector, translated from the Portuguese by Katrina Dodson (Brazil, New Directions)

The Story of My Teeth by Valeria Luiselli, translated from the Spanish by Christina MacSweeney (Mexico, Coffee House Press)

War, So Much War by Mercè Rodoreda, translated from the Catalan by Maruxa Relaño and Martha Tennent (Spain, Open Letter)

Murder Most Serene by Gabrielle Wittkop, translated from the French by Louise Rogers Lalaurie (France, Wakefield Press)

That's the answer - but am I missing something, that's only 7 languages?!

No wonder I couldn't find any combination that worked.

That's happened to me in the past too, Paul. A small error in a clue and the whole thing falls apart!

I'm surprised at some of the omissions (as usual!), but I'm happy to see Murder Most Serene on there. Time to really start filling in the gaps now!

Cheers.
I seriously considered putting Agualusa on mine, and to an extent Arvida, but would never have guessed the Wittkop.
The absence of Sphinx is a bit of a surprise.

Yes I playing with combinations today - given the scores given to others there was a lot of info and I concluded something must be wrong because I couldn't find a single case. Think at one point I even had something close to this list - and rejected it as not working.

Wittkop / Murder Most Serene was one I did guess - mainly due to Trevor's enthusiasm.

Sphinx I'm surprised but not unhappy to see missing. I'm no fan of Complete Stories but I guess that was inevitable.

General Theory of Oblivion is fine but not so good that it is worthy of both the MBI and the BTBA when Tram 83 is left off

No Bae Suah, no Hilbig is the big disappointment.

Think at one point I even had something close to this list - and rejected it as not working.

When I was writing mine, there was a point where I realised it needed a book with male authors that was in another language and not published by New Directions, which is how I ended up with The Four Books. Otherwise that would have been Agualusa or Archibald.

The Bae Suah was really excellent - very glad it was on the longlist as I may not have bothered to read it otherwise.

Out of those I've read (or read some of), there isn't one book I love to the extent that I'd like to see it win.
I'd like to like Lispector - some people are getting so much from that book - but I didn't enjoy her writing when I last tried it, nor am I into short stories in a big way, so it's not worth buying a great big volume
The other one I'll hopefully get a look at is War So Much War, which is supposed to become available on Scribd in a few days - if they don't postpone it like Tram 83 got postponed after it was MBI longlisted, perhaps to encourage more sales.

One nice thing about this discussion is it means that, regardless of them not making the shortlist, I will be reading Nowhere to Be Found and The Meursault Investigation.

Again, rather surprised by this list. Deep Vellum would be feeling very aggrieved with both 'Tram 83' and, especially, 'Sphinx' (my tip for the whole thing) missing out. Again, can't think what people see in the Agualusa, very slight :(

'War, So Much War' is one I enjoyed - I read it a while back, but my review's for Necessary Fiction and not out until 16/5 :(

Tony wrote: "Again, rather surprised by this list. Deep Vellum would be feeling very aggrieved with both 'Tram 83' and, especially, 'Sphinx' (my tip for the whole thing) missing out.
Yes, I'd love to know why that happened. Especially given that there are at least a couple of judges very keen on diversity & representation matters. On the other hand, I don't remember noticing outstanding enthusiasm for it among any posts by the judges, which meant I did consider leaving it out of the guesses, but the general buzz was outstandingly in its favour. (And I now like it more than I did immediately after reading it.)

Again, can't think what people see in the Agualusa, very slight"
Yes, it seems like the sort of thing that might end up there as a compromise if there were people who couldn't stand one another's favourites; it's difficult to dislike outright, but there are more exciting, idiosyncratic books, especially on the BTBA longlist.

As with the MBIP, there is a sense of a 'safe' shortlist here, which is especially disappointing as that's what BTBA is for, to promote the more exciting releases in translated fiction. I hope that in a push for wider acknowledgement (which I assume is also the reason for the release of the lists at the Millions site...) the championing of challenging books isn't left behind :(

I think it is partly related to panel composition. I've wondered if that itself was entirely related to trying to open up the award & make it more popular, or if it was also partly a case of who had the time and hadn't already done it. Depending who the judges are next year, it may end up closer to your expectations again.

(Incidentally, I do get tired of the pejorative weight and contested nature recently added to words like 'difficult' or 'experimental', which I nearly used there, when to most people, including to plenty of people who read a variety of books including those ones, they have identifiable and useful meanings.)
The BTBA needs to remain distinctive and different from the MBI - it's the one award list that can generally be recommended to certain types of readers who don't generally like award books. It's maybe just that not enough of them know about it. It does need more coverage in journals like the LRB, NYRB etc.

Still, this is hardly the BTBA's equivalent of the 2011 Booker. For the majority of people who don't aim to read the entire shortlist, but may just have their attention drawn to a few titles in a bookshop, there's still a fair bit there.

There are a couple of them I've barely looked at as there aren't even samples, but it does seem like the more challenging titles here are also fragmented (e.g. Physics, Moods). It is a shame there wasn't more room for whole narratives that were unusual. And given what I'd read about the politics, Sphinx would have seemed a perfect fit to fulfil with form without making people compromise on other views. It had quite a lot of publicity anyway though, and Deep Vellum are a noticeable and interesting brand.

Antonomasia wrote: "I think it is partly related to panel composition. I've wondered if that itself was entirely related to trying to open up the award & make it more popular, or if it was also partly a case of who ha..."

I'm truly amazed 'Sphinx' didn't make it - an excellent concept, good writing and a great translation (lots of issues in bringing the idea across into English), and despite what many people said there was a good story behind it too (not to mention the Camus nods). I really hope Ferrante doesn't win, not because it's bad, but because that would send a message about what kind of prize the BTBA has become (i.e. not the prize that was given to Can Xue last year...).

I'm still sure Lispector will win. (It's a shame bookies don't do betting for the BTBA, the way a few have for the MBI...) Seen too much enthusiasm for it to think it's really going to go any other way, and it's way more substantial than, urgh, Story of my Teeth, which is the other one a lot seem to like.

Anyway, one year is not a trend. (And there are certainly people who find The True Deceiver slight; I really liked it, and it was also a book I read when feeling too ill to consider tackling Krasznahorkai.)

Has anyone here read all the BTBA fiction winners, incidentally?
I've actually only read two but have others around. Started Can Xue a couple of months ago but it was a bad time for it.

I loved the story in Sphinx - if I'd heard more about the personality and setting I'd have read it sooner, but I assumed it would be dry.

Antonomasia wrote: "I'm still sure Lispector will win. (It's a shame bookies don't do betting for the BTBA, the way a few have for the MBI...) Seen too much enthusiasm for it to think it's really going to go any other..."

Really really hope the Lispector doesn't win. It's not the writing I object to but the format. Simply translating everything she has ever written and dumping it all in one volume, despite there being no equivalent volume in the original Portuguese.

I read it from front to back in one go. Probably not the best way, but if you're shortlisting it for a book competition, rather than an author prize, then that is what you are suggesting. And the experience was, well tedious would be too strong but certainly a chore rather than a pleasure.

Antonomasia wrote: "Has anyone here read all the BTBA fiction winners, incidentally?."

Perhaps this should be a thread all of its own? "Ranking the BTBA winners"

I've read six of the eight: reviews and ranking here.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

The two Krasznahorkai's (2013: Satantango, 2014: Seiobo There Below) are brilliant, but I didn't need the BTBA to tell me that. I did love The True Deceiver(2011) and became a fan of Tove Jansson's fiction generally, so that was one great recommendation from the BTBA.

Stone Upon Stone (2012) was fine but, as I've said on another thread, to me a bit of a safe choice. And Tranquility (2009) not great.

The Last Lover (2015) by Can Xue was one of those novels where I was left feeling a little inadequate as a reader. Doesn't help when you read interviews with the author saying most readers aren't up to her level! ....

"Reading my fiction requires a certain creativity. This particular way of reading has to be more than just gazing at the accepted meanings of the text on a literal level, because you are reading messages sent out by the soul, and your reading is awakening your soul into communication with the author's...Most of my readers stop at the level of “dream reading,” which is still a conventional way of reading."

And I haven't read the 2008 (Guantanamo: A Novel) and 2010 (The Confessions of Noa Weber) winners. Perhaps I should for completism.

Paul wrote: "Antonomasia wrote: "Has anyone here read all the BTBA fiction winners, incidentally?."

Perhaps this should be a thread all of its own? "Ranking the BTBA winners"

I've also read all of those except 'Tranquility', and I think they were all excellent reads. I think labelling 'Stone upon Stone' safe is a bit harsh; certainly, I couldn't see it getting far in the IFFP/MBIP stakes ;)

A while back I posted on one of these, cheekily suggesting a BTBA-IFFP showdown, and I'd say the US prize would have won most of those bouts (I might have picked 'The End of Days' over 'The Last Lover', but that's about all).

Tony wrote: "A while back I posted on one of these, cheekily suggesting a BTBA-IFFP showdown, and I'd say the US prize would have won most of those bouts"

My immediate reaction was that I have preferred the IFFP winners - I've read 13 of those.

But actually of the outstanding winners they were for years when the BTBA didn't run e.g. Austerlitz, Ricardo Reis, Immortality, Out Stealing Horses.

So looking back the IFFP seemed to take a lurch for the worse just as the BTBA was set up.

So yes on head to head the only IFFP winners are Omega Minor (2008) and End of Days (2015).

The latter was listed for yet another award recently "making this look even more like the biggest oversight in the history of [the BTBA]" per one of the 2015 BTBA judges.

I love the idea of having a "Ranking the Winners" thread. I'll set that up.

To respond to the other thoughts flowing here (I love it!), I love the BTBA, but I think that most of its value comes from the longlist and shortlist stage and not in the ultimate winner, and I do not mind the shortlist this year. It certainly left off some books I think were more complex -- Mirages of the Mind, for example -- but it also has two I loved and thought were very well done: Physics of Sorrow and Murder Most Serene. I've heard excellent things about Signs Preceding the End of the World, and Paul's convinced me that I need to give the Ferrante another chance. Rodoreda is no slouch, and Moods looks promising. The one I've read that I wouldn't have shortlisted, Arvida, still has a challenging darkness that fits in nicely with the tone of the BTBAs of the past. So, for me, that leaves only a few books that are very questionable. The problems comes, as it must always, with the books that weren't selected to move on that seemed like sure bets -- I'm just glad we have these conversations so we can keep pushing for them!

Trevor wrote: "I love the idea of having a "Ranking the Winners" thread. I'll set that up.

To respond to the other thoughts flowing here (I love it!), I love the BTBA, but I think that most of its value comes fr..."

Although the longlist is too long for my taste - 3 weeks to read 25 books means shadowing is practically impossible.

And personally I think I preferred the MBI longlist of 13 to the BTBA "short-"list of 10 this year. The MBI shortlist though.....

I would really like to know which of the books were the judge's wild card books--their personal favorites that they get to throw in for the other judges to reconsider. Do they release that info?

I think they're allowed to, unlike for some other prizes, but they don't always. Has Orthofer posted any of his past ones on the Complete Reviews?
It's possible to guess at some, e.g. if judges are on Goodreads and have rated books, or they write reviews somewhere - this year on Bookriot there have been a few very highly praised (that was why I guessed The Body Where I Was Born for the longlist) and one of the booksellers had loads of blog posts on his shop's site.

Sara wrote: "I would really like to know which of the books were the judge's wild card books--their personal favorites that they get to throw in for the other judges to reconsider. Do they release that info?"

Antonomasia wrote: "I think they're allowed to, unlike for some other prizes, but they don't always. Has Orthofer posted any of his past ones on the Complete Reviews?"

It is an award that prides itself on its transparency e.g. the complete list of eligible books - albeit there what I would really love to see is confirmation that every judge read all 450 of them!

Michael O did include some thoughts last year although he only named the book that missed out as his extra pick (Bitov's The Symmetry Teacher) not the one he added.
http://www.complete-review.com/saloon...

I loved The Symmetry Teacher, and I remember being sad that it was so close to making the longlist but didn't! Or so far from making it that it came to a judge having to throw out another beloved title just to ensure its place.

(Incidentally, I do get tired of the pejorative weight and contested nature recently added to words like 'difficult' or 'experimental',

The opposite of that would be 'easy' and 'non-experimental,' which is to say regular, safe, formula stories, only under different names. Why would anyone want more of the same, again and again, and all over again? And is it not true that every new breakthrough in fiction whether of narrative style, tropes, language etc has come about out of what seemed difficult experiments...

Anyway, I'm having a hard time trying to find a few BTBA books from places where I buy my books, walk-in or online stores. I haven't checked the rules of the BTBA prize but if they only consider books published recently (last year etc), then I am in for a long wait to get any of those. Unfortunately no one sells ebooks to us. Amazon and B&N certainly don't. Perhaps some e-stores sell internationally but will have to check.

Anyway, I'm having a hard time trying to find a few BTBA books from places where I buy my books, walk-in or online stores. I haven't checked the rules of the BTBA prize but if they only consider books published recently (last year etc)
Yeah, international availability of books is a major issue with newer stuff, and it's really bad that so few places deliver to you guys.
The BTBA covers books published in the last calendar year, (i.e. the prize awarded in 2016 is for books published in 2015). Might be slightly better than the Booker listing stuff just out that minute, or not yet published, although their titles do tend to get more traction.

Some of the titles are always pretty obscure - French Perfume isn't even on Amazon UK, and it's always the case quite a few of the others are even in Britain only available as paper editions costing £11-15. Then they might take a year to sell on as so few people buy them. (Although the Elsir I'd guess might be one you have better access to in the original Arabic?)

Sorry I disappeared for so long. I've been reading :)

I've read 10 of the longlist and will read all of them (well, all but Ferrante), hopefully by the time the winner is announced. I've ranked the 10 on the ranking post.

22 of the 25 are available from Amazon US as e-book. The exceptions? Murder Most Serene (Wakefield Press never has e-books), French Perfume, published by that well known conglomerate ANTIBOOKCLUB (yep, caps are part of the name). And for the most obscure book of this or any recent BTBA, there is Berlin, published by Counterpath. I paid an insane amount for this tiny book of essays. Yep, essays.

Have to say as far as I am concerned ebook and not available mean the same thing. I am more than happy to use the internet to read blogs, contribute to Goodreads and indeed buy books (I have to admit to say I am more of a fan of Amazon than physical bookshops). But for reading books it is paper or nothing for me.

Great to see you back again Lascoasas. And glad to see someone else wasn't a fan of Story of My Teeth. Would love to hear your opinions on the individual books if you've time, especially those for which there's been less discussion, like Ulitskaya, Kurniawan and Nettel.

Did I tell you that I finally read Zabuzhko and found her absolutely awesome? Never would have noticed her if you hadn't talked up Museum on the forum. I was quite interested in Big Green Tent anyway - it's published in the UK next year so might wait as it'll be cheaper - but it seems more promising now you've rated it highly.

Jibran, I meant to reply to this paragraph before but forgot:
The opposite of that would be 'easy' and 'non-experimental,' which is to say regular, safe, formula stories, only under different names. Why would anyone want more of the same, again and again, and all over again? And is it not true that every new breakthrough in fiction whether of narrative style, tropes, language etc has come about out of what seemed difficult experiments...
I really like that paragraph, but I was referring to an essay that's been posted a few times on here, usually in conversations with Nathan or Jonathan.
This would be the most salient paragraph:
What I’m asking for in this essay is really very simple: I want us to stop using the language of difficulty when we talk about literature. I want us to stop doing this because it partakes in the cheapest, lamest stereotypes out there, and because it encourages people to feel like the books we love are frightening things that are too rich for them to experience. And, lastly, because using that language turns us into cheap caricatures of the people we really are...I, myself, while writing this very essay had to constantly stop and force myself to use different words and different rhetoric, because the habit is as ingrained into me as anyone. I have tried to suggest some new approaches ways we might take and contribute a little fresh language. I have tried to offer some new frames to replace that dreaded high/low binary that enables talk of “difficulty.”

I've seen a few other articles and blog posts refer to this idea recently too. To me, as I experience a range of different reading abilities due to health, never mind that I've worked in the past with people who had only basic literacy as adults, this idea is very silly. Perhaps some people move in a world where they hardly ever meet anyone for whom this is relevant, they only meet adults with consistent and average-to-high reading ability, maybe they don't even know any kids of an age able to read some adults books whilst others are still...too difficult.
I find this a ridiculous excision of useful vocab. I think, as with 'middlebrow', it's a useful definition in itself, the problem is rather people attaching pejorative meaning to the words. One can feel like and enjoy reading a middlebrow novel, or a difficult/challenging book. These words don't have to be negative, but they are a good way of communicating briefly what the book is like, and to indicate who would and wouldn't like it, although they are fairly quotidian and limited words for erudite essays.