J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion
The Silmarillion
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Chapters 1-6
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Yay! It's already April here in Indonesia. Cannot wait to read chapter 3 and maybe chapter 4, too? :D
Hehe! I'm going to dive in this weekend!
Chapter 3. I like this chapter. Tolkien described the migration of the elves (I'm not sure migration is a propriate word for it, but it's the one I can think of now) is clearly enough for me to understand it easily, despite there are lots of names in the chapter. And speaking of characters' names, it's one of difficult things I find in this book. There are lots of names I want to memorize but at the same time they are kind of distracting me. I can memorize the characters' name, though am still struggling to remember what power one has. But when a horse, a mountain, the stars and other things' name come up, I have to (slightly) ignore it, to be honest :DI guess it's better if I read this chapter with a map beside me. I'm curious of how different the Middle-Earth in Silmarillion and in The Hobbit/LoTR.
At the end of chapter 3, there is an elf named Denethor, son of Lenwë of Nandor. I wonder whether human knew this Denethor or if he's well-know among human, as Boromir & Faramir's father's name is Denethor too. I guess I have to check the appendix in LotR to know about the Stewards of Gondor. If I'm not wrong there is a story about the Eorl so it must be there is one about Boromir's family, though I don't remember about it at all right now.
Hi Rach, I thought I would read this right away but this weekend and last, the weather has been crazy beautiful here, so not so much reading! I'll finish both chapters next weekend, but I did start ch. 3 today. So this is the first time we hear of Balrogs and Sauron?!?!?! Pretty important, yes? I kind of like that. That is interesting that there is also an elf name Denethor. I will keep my eye open for that, as well. It would be interesting if B & F's father was named after this elf;)
Heidi wrote: "Hi Rach, I thought I would read this right away but this weekend and last, the weather has been crazy beautiful here, so not so much reading! I'll finish both chapters next weekend, but I did start..."Hi Heidi,
It's good the weather was beautiful in your place, while in my place it's so unpredictable lately. In the morning and afternoon it can be so hot I feel like the sun is right up in my head while at night it can be heavy raining with lightning and all. So confusing!
Before I read Silmarillion I thought Balrog is the name of the creature, never thought it's the creatures themselves. And Sauron? He surely has one powerful boss, doesn't he? :D
I tried to look for the Stewards of Gondor in LoTR appendix but I couldn't find it. There is a story about the Eorl but not the Stewards of Gondor. I remember I once read about them somewhere. But now I'm not sure where I read it.
Chapter 4. It's so short! I finally meet the famous Thingol and Melian, but there isn't much about them. I mean they are Aragorn and Arwen ancestral and the first couple who married with another race (Thingol is an elf while Melian is a maia), I kind of wished I got so much stories about them. But then again, since my friends said they also appear in
I guess, there will be another chapters about them later.So I've read 2 chapters this month, but since chapter 4 is too short, I think I'm going to read another one now :D
Okay, I finished chapter 3 & 4. I think chapter 3 is quite complex, what with the three different elves: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri and then the Teleri subdividing into the: Elves of the Light, Elves of the Darkness ... did the Grey-Elves come from them too? It is a lot to keep up with, and a map would help. I have mixed feelings about these chapters. A structure is there, but it's pretty dry.There are concepts/terms I appreciate: Queen of the Stars, Waters of Awakening; the first sound being heard as the sound of water flowing, that sorrow and wisdom enriched the beauty.
Again, there seems to be a a lot of leeway given to Melkor to seed his damage, although he is "bound with the chain of Angainor", which I liked. Of course, that is after the Orcs were created and basically unleashed on Middle Earth!
Yes, chapter 4 is quite short. I was okay with that as chapter 3 was so complex. So the fruit of Melian and Thingol will be important, I guess we will find out what that is in the next chapter? And/or more about them in the Children of Hurin ... hmmm... will we read that next?!?!?!
The name "Denethor", it is possible that since this was published posthumously, that Tolkien lifted the name from this earlier work since it hadn't been published ... for the steward of Gondor...
I guess the main thing as concerning the set up of LOTR is that: balrogs, sauron, and orcs are ancient evils. That is kind of cool:)
I'm going to hold off and read ch 5 & 6 in May:)
I just finished reading ch. 5 & 6. Other than reading the bits about the White Tree of Númenor and Galadriel, I found ch. 5 dry. Well, I did appreciate the image of the swans drawing the white ships;) But overall, I enjoyed ch. 6 much more with it's history of Finwë's family. I thought Míriel's wasting away after giving birth to Fëanor was sad, and the setup for whatever Fëanor is going to do intriguing. Also the duplicity of Melkor after his "release" seemed very fitting.
Throughout, Tolkien addresses the power of words and names, their beginning, and his view of their inherent potency. As a philologist, he takes his words seriously, and that is clear in this history:
"and Rúmil of Tirion was the name of the lore master who first achieved fitting signs for the recording of speech and song, some for graving metal and stone, others for drawing with brush or pen."
"and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard."
I'm hoping we hear more about Galadriel's story in future chapters. We didn't get much more than that she was Finwë's granddaughter by of the sons of his second wife, Indis.
I've set up the thread for chapters 7 thru 12. I plan to read chapters 7 & 8 in June!
I haven't finished reading chapter 5 yet. I don't know why but it's quite a hard reading for me. I have to reread so many paragraph to understand it. I guess I'll read from the beginning again soon :)
Rachmi wrote: "I haven't finished reading chapter 5 yet. I don't know why but it's quite a hard reading for me. I have to reread so many paragraph to understand it. I guess I'll read from the beginning again soon :)"It's very dry. Almost like a listing of data/facts rather than a story or narrative. I know Christopher Tolkien edited this after his father died. So it was probably really hard to discern what to take out and what to leave in. I'm guessing, from what we've read so far that he chose to leave in as much as possible. In my own writing of Daughter of Light, I have thousands of unpublished words. Things you write to get to a certain point in your narrative to make everything work. I get a sense in reading The Silmarillion that as readers we're getting a mix of the bare bones of Tolkien's world building as in ch. 5, kind of like a verbal map of lineages, and then more narrative sections that are a pleasure to read, like Ainulindalë and Valaquenta. I'm thinking CT didn't want to destroy the continuity, even though some of the passages/chapters are really more expressions of Tolkien's thoughts/world developing than actually story. Not sure if all that made sense! But yes, ch.5 = struggle for me too. There were a few good paragraphs, but it's chapters like that that make me glad we're doing two a month;) I want to read them, but the reading itself is not as pleasurable.
Agree with all you said, Heidi. Chapter 5 felt a bit dry but once I got what it means, it wasn't that hard reading anymore, and a bit intriguing. I especially really enjoyed the story about the Noldor and the part about Finwe family made my reading more enjoyable. As you said, this chapter is like a listing of data/facts, thus makes me wonder if it's enough if CT makes the story into a family tree. But then again, I enjoyed the part about Finwe family so maybe this is the best way to do it, despite the hard and dry feeling when we read it.
The thing is I almost always find the beginning of each chapter is a struggle for me. I don't know why, maybe because we read it one or two chapter each month? so I feel like I have to go back to that hard feeling whenever I start the book. But once I'm in the story I feel like I don't want to put it down. But then I have to put it down and move to another books. So each time I feel like I'm going in a circle. On the other hand, with the way we read now, I have so much time to digest the story. I mean I understand it, not just read it. Hope you understand what I mean :)
As for chapter 6. Melkor reminds me of Saruman, what with his words and kind and nice persona. I cannot wait to read more about him.
Rachmi wrote: " I especially really enjoyed the story about the Noldor and the part about Fine family..."That was a section that I found interesting as well.
That's an interesting idea about the family tree. It would be a really nice addition to the work. Actually, I think they should make one!!!!
I kind of go through the same thing each month. It takes a few paragraphs to enter back into the world, but I also do enjoy taking the time with it. As with all Tolkien's writing, it is dense and I think it's easy to miss so much when reading fast.
Tolkien definitely has made Melkor an interesting "bad guy".
I'll probably read the next two chapters next weekend!
Okay, I'll do a marathon review from chapter 1 to chapter 6. I'm far away behind you guys :) ...
Ch. 1 : It was rather a bit hard for me to imagine how actually the 'Universe' of Arda looks like after reading the earlier chapters of The Sil, The Hobbit and LotR trilogy. I need more map references. And I found some maps that might help to give a brief description of Arda.
Arda through the Ages
Years of the Trees and First Age
Arda during the Elder Days. This is how the Arda looks during the majority of the Quenta Silmarillion
Second Age
Arda during the Second Age. Note Beleriand has sunk beneath the ocean, the Inland Sea of Helcar has drained, and Numenor has appeared. This how Arda looks during the Akallabeth
Third Age and onwards
Arda during the Third Age as well as the Fourth and subsequent Ages. Note the drowning of Numenor, the removal of Valinor from the "circles of the world", and the fact the world is now round, with "New Lands" across the ocean to be explored during the Dominion of Men.
Source : soarelthehornyhobbit
Artist : Quentin Lowagie
And of course, talking about the Two Trees of Valinor, there's an interesting fact about it;
"The Two Trees of Valinor are also know as Telperion and Laurelin. Telperion the silver tree whose last flower became the moon was considered male whereas Laurelin the golden tree whose last fruit created the sun was considered female.
Telperion and Laurelin by MrSvein872
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Ch. 2 : There's no chapter dedicated to Manwë and Varda, instead the first chapter about a Valar is 'Of Aulë and Yavanna". Has anyone wondering why?
Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 4. It's so short! I finally meet the famous Thingol and Melian, but there isn't much about them. I mean they are Aragorn and Arwen ancestral and the first couple who married with another ra..."Heidi wrote: "Yes, chapter 4 is quite short. I was okay with that as chapter 3 was so complex. So the fruit of Melian and Thingol will be important, I guess we will find out what that is in the next chapter? And/or more about them in the Children of Hurin ... hmmm... will we read that next?!?!?!
..."
Yes, chapter 4 is a very short chapter. But don’t worry, they will appear in many parts of the next chapters. They play an important role in the story including their kingdom; Doriath, which known as one of the Great Kingdom in Beleriand. In fact, if you have read the content of Quenta Silmarillion, there’s a chapter about this kingdom, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”. You’ll get there, be patient ;)
And about Children of Hurin, it's gotta be in the next list of our discussion. I demand it! :)) I strongly recommend to read this book after The Sil and also it's still related to one chapter of The Sil.
Here's a picture of Elwe/Thingol Melian
Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian by Elena Kukanova
Interesting fact : Melian was depicted wearing red clothing! People always draw her wearing blue which was actually the colour of her daughter Lúthien's clothing.
Ch. 6 : Interesting parts of this chapter for me ..1). Actually, I expected more paragraphs to explain about the healing of Irmo for Miriel, even it didn't work her, so I can learn even Valar has their own' limit'. Or did this part already mention somewhere in other Tolkien books ? Or Irmo hasn't done anything to her yet, she's already 'dead' by her own free will.
Finwe near his wife Miriel Sirinde by steamey
2). "Before the gates of Valmar Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world. And Nienna aided his prayer; but Mandos was silent."
I'm curious for the last lines of this paragraph. The word 'aided' in Indonesian edition was translated as 'membantu' or helping. Why does Nienna has to help Melkor for the bad things he has done. I wouldn't say she has a hidden agenda, perhaps it's just kinda her 'basic insting' or pure feeling. But why Nienna? Even Ulmo & Tulkas can feel that Melkor is 'tricky" one ...
"The pity of Nienna is most clearly seen in her support for Melkor when he sued for the pardon of the Valar. Though she spent her time in the world mourning for the destruction he had wreaked in Arda, when he sued for release after his three ages of Captivity, Nienna spoke on his behalf."
Wita, 1. Those maps are so amazing! Thank you so much for posting them, they add so much.
2. I'm thinking the same, if we're going to do this, we should read Children of Hurin next. Rach, thoughts?
3. Wita, the point you bring up about Nienna is a good one. I don't think she necessarily had a hidden agenda either. Perhaps, her nature is simply more forgiving? Or her nature is to hope, believe more readily that Melkor truly repented, where is Mandos was possibly more suspicious of Melkor's cunning, i.e. the "mask" he showed to Manwë. For me, in this scenes, Tolkien is showing us the "long lines (thread of events)" that lead to tragedy and destruction, the weaving that strengthens their trajectory, and how they are achieved ... here is perhaps an example of the manipulation (by Melkor) of the kindhearted (Nienna). I keep using the term 'manipulate' for Melkor based on this definition: to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously. The most effective, powerful win for evil is when it can manipulate the good. I think this is one of the themes of Tolkien's work. Another example is in LOTR when Sauron manipulates Gandalf. Gandalf never once thinks to question his master ... until it is too late, and Sauron has become a tool use/manipulated by Sarumon.
You're welcome, Heidi. I think I'll make a post map again, especially from the early chapters of this book ^_^
Oooh, all maps are most welcome!
Eep...thanks for the map, Wita! I have one of HoME (History of Middle Earth) that contains the map and how Tolkien created Middle Earth in the beginning. It actually a good companion, but is quite dull and dense book, I think. I think it's because it's so technical it's like reading a text book. I got bored easily and put it on hold for years. Haven't finished it yet. Maybe I'll go back again some day in the future (the same case as one of Tolkien essay) when I finish The Silmarillion :)
Yes, we definitely should read Children of Hurin after The Silmarillion! Heard that it's an epic-tragic story, cannot wait to read it.
I'm with you guys, I don't think Nienna has hidden agenda either. And I always thought that Melkor is the most cunning evil in ME. I also agree with you, Heidi. Manipulate is the perfect term for him. He's so good with it he takes cunning to the next level, if it's possible. Before I read The Sil I thought Saruman is so good with manipulation but Melkor is much more than Saruman.
That being said, I think what you meant by Sauron manipulates Gandalf. Gandalf never once thinks to question his master ... until it is too late, and Sauron has become a tool use/manipulated by Sarumon. is actually Sauron manipulates Saruman, right? I don't think Gandalf has been manipulated by Sauron before, or did I miss something here?
Thank you, kak Rach!☺So, it's the deal. Everyone will going to have Children of Húrin on the list after finishing The Sil. Yayyy!!
Wita wrote: "Thank you, kak Rach!☺So, it's the deal. Everyone will going to have Children of Húrin on the list after finishing The Sil. Yayyy!!"
Already got my copy (in Indonesian) sitting nicely in my shelf, so I have to read it somehow, someday. And you guys is the perfect reason to do it, next year :D
.... And you'll get a teaser of this book on the next following chapters in The Sil.. *spoileralert
Rachmi wrote: "Yes, we definitely should read Children of Hurin after The Silmarillion! Heard that it's an epic-tragic story, cannot wait to read it..."Great! Then Children of Hurin next!
So Wita, were you referring to all this stuff going on with Feanor as the teaser?
The Sauron/Saruman/Gandalf thread. For me, Sauron is not manipulating Saruman, he's using him, the difference being, Sauron's true motives are no secret for Saruman. Sauron seduces the white wizard with the promise of power. What's different is Saruman isn't straight up with Gandalf, he acts "friendly and supportive" of him until that moment when he doesn't and then reveals his allegiance to Sauron and his own lust for power. For me, the key to manipulation is the behind-the-scenes quality. Telling someone what they want to hear and encouraging them to do things they are naturally inclined to do, but not encouraging them, etc. for the stated reason. That's why to me manipulation is so wicked, they're always core lies in its wielding.
Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Yes, we definitely should read Children of Hurin after The Silmarillion! Heard that it's an epic-tragic story, cannot wait to read it..."Great! Then Children of Hurin next!
So Wit..."
Now if you put it that way, I guess you're right. Sauron is clearly using Saruman since the beginning, with clear intention. Maybe just like Saruman is using Theoden in The Two Tower (through Grima Wormtongue)? Or is it he being manipulative to Theoden? I guess this manipulating thing is a bit tricky for me. But if I see from your description about Saruman manipulating Gandalf, it's easy to understand. And yes, I agree to what you said, Saruman pretends to help Gandalf and friendly with him while he has some hidden agenda for himself. That's being manipulative, for sure.
Rach, that's a great contrast to Saruman, Grima Wormtongue, and Theoden. I see it as Grima is aligning with Saruman for his own gain and pretty much clear what Saruman's objectives are, control Theoden and take power over the Rohirrim, so, I agree Saruman is not manipulating Grima. But that's a good question about Theoden, because it kind of goes even deeper. A spell (?) is actually cast over Theoden, so his body is actually used as a conduit for Saruman's "consciousness". So that's, to me, even different from manipulation because of the mind-control element. What Meldor does with Feanor, which is so brilliant, is he pumps up Feanor's true anger and self-righteousness and steers it away from himself (Melkor) and toward the Valar. Which as a plot point, is pretty deft, imho.
Answering Heidi, Feanor has nothing to do with Children of Húrin. In fact, he couldn't make it and you'll find the reason why ;)
It's on one of the chapter itself and you'll get there :))
There's an interesting story of Melkor. In Tolkien's early concept of the Children of the Ainur, Melkor had a son Kosomot (later Gothmog) with an ogress called Fuithluin. An ogress? hehe... This is beyond my imagination. It's much better with Arien version that also mentioned in his other writings.
Heidi wrote: "Rach, that's a great contrast to Saruman, Grima Wormtongue, and Theoden. I see it as Grima is aligning with Saruman for his own gain and pretty much clear what Saruman's objectives are, control The..."Yes, that's why I think Melkor is the most bad-ass antagonist in Tolkien stories. Because his "tricks", evilness and everything in him is a whole new level from other antagonist in The Hobbit and LOTR.
Wita wrote: "There's an interesting story of Melkor. In Tolkien's early concept of the Children of the Ainur, Melkor had a son Kosomot (later Gothmog) with an ogress called Fuithluin. An ogress? hehe... This is..."For me, it's pretty amazing reading "the behind-the-scene" Tolkien works. He wrote and we all know he also revised so many things. So his background stories are also fascinating me. I think it's also as interesting as his final stories we read now.
My goal is to read History of Middle Earth (HoME) too, someday :D But I guess it's a long way to do it, considering there are still many books I need to read before I'm ready to read the whole volume of HoME.
Wita, I love to hear your "behind-the-scenes" knowledge. Rachmi, that is a great point about the different antagonists ... but isn't Melkor the developing Sauron or the thread that is leading to Sauron? I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well, but isn't Melkor's story how Tolkien gets to Sauron ... is Melkor going to become Sauron? I just ask, because one of Tolkien's devices is to transform a character and then rename them ... like Smeagol, transforms into Gollum and gets a new name.
Mary, thanks:) I've been curious as to how that will all unfold ... I'm assuming at the end of this book, or will it be Children of Hurin, the LotR stage will be set?
the children of Hurin occurs during the events of this. The stage will be just about set at the end of this, so to speak. In broad strokes, set.
Please find the original thread discussing chapters 1-2 here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
This thread continues that discussion.