History in Vogue discussion

Captain Robert Walton writes to his sister, Margaret as he sets sail for the North Pole in search of knowledge and fame. Through a storm, they see giant figure on a dog sled, and in the morning the crew rescues a frozen, nearly-dead man from the ice. After his recovery the man, Victor Frankenstein, is adamant that he must find the creature glimpsed by the crew. Fearing Walter's ambitions, he agrees to recount his story as a warning.

Victor was born in Naples, to a wealthy family from Geneva, and raised with younger brother, William, and Elizabeth, a ward taken in by his mother. He spent his youth studying outdated theories, obsessed by the science of manipulation of the natural world. Weeks before he leaves for university, his mother's death from scarlet fever spurrs his obsession further.

Which version are we reading? I found a website that shows the changes between the 1818 and 1831 editions. In the first few chapters the changes are minor.

These first chapters just serve to set the stage for how and why the story is conveyed to Walton. The introduction of Frankenstein lays the groundwork for his obsession with the creature. He only submits to being rescued from the ice when he is sure that the ship will be going toward and not away from the path the creature has taken. Builds the tension and the interest in knowing what Frankenstein's story is.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Which version are we reading? I found a website that shows the changes between the 1818 and 1831 editions. In the first few chapters the changes are minor."

QNPoohBear, mine is the 1831 edition, but I don't believe the changes are so significant that they would cause a problem for the discussion. The only major changes were more depth of character for Victor, Elizabeth being an angelic foundling rather than Victor's cousin, and the view of Victor's actions being a crime against God, which most people think she was pressured into for popular conservative opinions of the time. I'm not sure if the 1818 edition is widely printed anymore, unless someone has or has borrowed a much older copy.

1818 edition with footnotes
http://www.rc.umd.edu/editions/franke...

Both side by side
http://juxtacommons.org/shares/Nme50n

Victor Frankenstein is Voldenmort! Victor read all the natural philosophers - the wizards - who practiced dark deeds. I had forgotten this part of the story and never made that connection. In the Harry Potter universe, Agrippa,, Nicholas Flamel, and the other philosophers are long forgotten wizards. Voldemort seeks immortal life though not in the same way or for the same reasons. I ALMOST want to sign up for Twitter and see what Jo Rowling has to say about that.

Victor Frankenstein is annoying me. He keeps talking about his destiny without taking responsibility for anything he did to get to this point. He was told not to read the so-called natural philosophers, he did it anyway. He chose to bury himself in his books and ignore his family, etc. etc. I know that's the point of the book- how much responsibility does Victor bear/how much responsibility for a child does have a parent have? Mary Shelley was working out her mom-anxiety issues.

Doctors will have to add this one to the list of literary characters who die of Scarlet Fever, which they say you don't actually die from. You get a high fever and the high fever can damage your body if left untreated. Now of course we have antibiotics.

The footnotes note the heavy influence of Paradise Lost and of course, PB Shelley and the romantic poets, particularly the Ancient Mariner. The footnotes also discuss the sexist viewpoint of the novel. Elizabeth is described in horribly stereotypical feminine terms. The editor says whether that was Mary conforming to the ideas of her day or whether it's Victor's viewpoint on women, that doesn't matter. What matters more is the characterization and the actions of the characters.

Oh, bless you, you just hit on something that personally makes me so angry. I get so mad when doctors pretend you can't die from scarlet fever, even now regardless of antibiotics. I had scarlet fever when I was younger, and what I can remember of it was nightmarish. My teacher called my mother to come and get me, because she said she was scared of how pale and lethargic that I was starting to look around lunch that day. My mother took me straight to my pediatrician, and they said I had strep throat, which I had already had many times at the age of seven. By the next day I had to be taken to the hospital because my fever shot up and I started breaking out in the "rash". Time it was over, I had missed two weeks of school, been hospitalized with 106 and a half degree fever, spent two days delirious, and suffered a relapse. The doctors had no idea how I came out without some form of permanent brain damage, and my cardiologist says he's as certain as he can be that I have a second minor heart defect because of it. I was absolutely lucky to live through that, even with modern medicine. I can't imagine going through it a long time ago.

Sounds like a true nightmare, Marie. I do think we tend to forget how much risk there was then in diseases that are considered to be minor today. A burst appendix would kill you. Measles was deadly, especially for pregnant women. I can imagine that scarlet fever was plenty deadly enough.

Sara wrote: "Sounds like a true nightmare, Marie. I do think we tend to forget how much risk there was then in diseases that are considered to be minor today. A burst appendix would kill you. Measles was deadly..."

Yes, illness and medical advancements are the main reason I would never want to live in another time period. I think most people forget when they romanticize the past, how easily you could die from even a minor illness.

Sorry to hear about your bout with Scarlet Fever Marie, thankfully I skipped that one. I remember in the Little House Books Mary Ingalls lost her sight due to a high fever from SF. I believe that's the childhood disease Helen Keller had that left her blind and deaf.

When I was young there wasn't even a vaccination yet for Measles or Mumps and I remember having them when young. When my older sister became infected with Measles and/or Mumps my mother put me in bed with her so she could nurse us at the same time. That was standard operational procedure then when mothers had more children. It was also thought to weaken the virus or infection when it spread to several children at the same time. We had very mild cases so maybe there's something to that.

I remember going for my physical after being hired for a new job. The nurse asked me what year I had my MMR vaccinations and I told her I had those diseases and didn't received vaccination for them. She was a young girl and almost fainted in horror.
YOU HAD THEM! ARE YOU SURE??? She couldn't believe I had survived them with no problem at all.

I had all of them as well, Laurie. Another reason they intentionally exposed us to them was that it was known that they were harder on and more dangerous to you if you got them when you were older. Serious problems could result from mumps, especially for males if they had them after they were in puberty. Better to have them early and build the immunity.

I totally agree that people romanticize the past. I remember not having indoor plumbing and using the outhouse. It was anything but pleasant. No instant hot water for baths and no heat in every room. We had heat in our front room and in the winter it was horribly cold when you went into the bedroom to sleep. We slept three in a bed and were glad to have the warmth of the other bodies.

I've been lucky so far, I'm only thirty but I can't have an MMR vaccine because I'm allergic to the rubella portion. So far I've managed not to catch mumps or measles, only had chickenpox when I was about eleven. Every time they start talking about another measles outbreak on television, I get tempted to go to Canada and have a measles and a mumps vaccination, since they offer them separately. We aren't allowed the single vaccines in the US - because drug companies

Sara wrote: "I had all of them as well, Laurie. Another reason they intentionally exposed us to them was that it was known that they were harder on and more dangerous to you if you got them when you were older...."

Sara, when I was in design school, there was an older man taking a couple of classes for a further certification. He was in his fifties (this was about ten years ago) and said he grew up very similar to the way you did, just outside of Tallahassee. He said they were dirt poor, no heat, no indoor plumbing, or even running water when he was little. He managed to work his way through school, and eventually became a successful interior designer. This is right when the economy was starting to collapse, and he had lost a huge amount in stocks and large portion of his savings. He was miserable, but even with enough money to survive on he said he had been happier when he was poor, because you couldn't miss what you didn't know you didn't have.

Sara, I don't believe a lot of people even realize how poverty stricken the rural Southern US really was, if so no one seemed to care. Fathers had to kick their young teenage boys out of the house as they couldn't afford to feed them any longer.

It wasn't until after WWII that the south started to become industrialized and a middle class became possible. Up until then most southerners were either rich or poor.

Southerners were especially hard hit by the depression. Both of my parents grew up during the depression and they often told us about the grinding poverty they had endured. My father grew up in a large southern city and was very familiar with hunger.

I remember when I was young my dad called my sister and me into the new pantry he had been installing in our house to see the end results.
There were large steel racks stacked high with canned goods he proudly revealed; telling us we never had to be afraid of starving if another depression ever occurred.

An older family friend related how as a child his family ate biscuits and gravy for 2 years straight and he couldn't touch a biscuit afterwards.

By this time we were living a solid middle class life and I had no experience or knowledge of hunger, but the depression seemed to have left lasting scars on my parents generation.

Yes, it was considered much safer to go ahead and have those diseases when children were young I recall as well. Another thing was once there was a measles outbreak it was pretty certain the children were going to get it anyway so there was no need to quarantine them. The schools didn't close down and life went on as usual. I don't recall hearing of any child that actually died from the measles either. I'm sure it happened but it was very rare.

Polio was a different matter though but by the time I was born there was a polio vaccine. I remember that parents took the vaccine at the same time as their children.

Sort of the like the common cold now, if one kid in a family catches one soon other members of the family will catch it too.

I remember I used to envy my country cousins who experienced the same type of childhood you described. Their life seemed so care free as they ran wild over the countryside as kids. I had so much fun visiting them - wasn't too crazy about that outhouse though :D

It's strange Marie that some people seem to be born with a natural immunity to some childhood diseases so you might not even have to worry about the measles or mumps.

My mother put me to bed with my sister when she had the chicken pox; poor thing was miserable, tossing and turning, trying not to scratch. Somehow I never caught them so I must have a natural immunity to them.
Still, I can't help but get a little nervous when there's a c. pox outbreak.

So sad about your friend in design school. I've always marveled at how well southerners were able to cope with poverty - maybe it was their Christian faith that saw them through the hard times.
As long as they had good music to listen to they were usually happy.
Poverty might also explain the southern man's attachment to white lightening :D During the depression that was probably the only private enterprise available to a lot of them.

I cannot ever remember being hungry, but we ate a lot of things we grew ourselves and wild foods like Poke Salad and turnips. I never thought of us as poor and we had a great life growing up. There were always others whom we knew, who were much worse off than we were and my mother and grandmother were always sharing with others. By the time I was twelve we were firmly in the middle class, a result of a lot of hard work and long hours of work by my father. I am very grateful to have seen the other side. It has shaped my whole life in a very positive way.

Recent study says Mary Ingalls did not go blind from Scarlet Fever
My dad is a pediatrician and he didn't worry about Scarlet Fever. We had chicken pox, ear infections, strep throat- the usual.

It's a common literary disease, along with consumption, to kill off characters or cause dramatic tension.

I wouldn't have wanted to grow up in any other place Sara.
One thing we learned was that money couldn't buy happiness.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Recent study says Mary Ingalls did not go blind from Scarlet Fever
My dad is a pediatrician and he didn't worry about Scarlet Fever. We had chicken pox, ear infections, strep throat- the usual.

I..."

QNPoohBear wrote: "Recent study says Mary Ingalls did not go blind from Scarlet Fever
My dad is a pediatrician and he didn't worry about Scarlet Fever. We had chicken pox, ear infections, strep throat- the usual.

I..."


Such an interesting article QBear and thanks for the link. Of course lab tests weren't available then to correctly label the offending pathogen so it could very well have been meningitis instead.

Laura's husband Almanzo had a stroke while suffering from diphtheria and walked with a limp afterwards. He never recovered his strength and was no longer able to farm. All the more reason to be thankful for modern medicine and antibiotics!

But what about Marie's experience with Scarlet Fever? Could she have had meningitis instead of SF? Even with antibiotics she had temps of 106 which can damage cranial nerves. I'd be curious what your father thinks of her case.

Interesting that SF was not as much of a threat by the 20th century, perhaps improvements in sanitation are the reason?

Nope, I had Scarlet Fever. I was tested for meningitis and it came back negative, and other than fever, I had none of the symptoms such as the rigidity. SF is just so rare now that only a small percentage of strep cases result in it anymore, mostly because we're cleaner now, with less overcrowding and more access to medication, than when it came with a high mortality rate. Only a handful of people die now, and some rare cases still result in heart defect or disease, rheumatoid illness, or kidney damage. But a part of that is caused by incredibly high fever, which is where I had much of my problems, because my fever just got so high. I so was run down from fever and the stress on my body that I relapsed before I could get better. I had a horrible time of it, but then hundreds of people still die from the flu every year. It's why the blanket statements of "can't die from..." make me angry.

I have to confess, I don't know much about Mary Ingalls. I don't like the television show, and didn't like the books as a child. I'm not sure if they've proven whether Helen Keller had meningitis or Scarlet Fever, but I know it's supposed to be quite rare to have scarlet fever as an infant. But that was a long time ago as well.

I have read quite a bit about Helen Keller recently (read her autobiography and went on a search for more info) and most seem to agree that she had scarlet fever although a few sources did say "unknown illness". I see that when you google SF some very respectable sites say you can die from SF although it is rare. I imagine it was less rare in those days. You are right, Marie, people still die from diseases that are generally considered non-lethal in general. We are spoiled to these kinds of diseases being under control.

Oh, I believe you Marie so don't think I was doubting your word. :D
I was always interested in reading about the westward expansion as a child and found the Little House book fascinating. I didn't care for the TV series either as it strayed very far from the facts.

I recently saw a true crime show on TV where a healthy 12 year old child dropped dead after visiting a water park with her friends.

I think it was Dr. G's show, the Florida pathologist so you might be familiar with her. Anyway, Dr. G. was pulling her hair out trying to figure out what had killed this child.
It took many months but finally the case was solved.
Somehow this child had caught a fast moving strain of meningitis at the water park that killed her quickly. Apparently the water was contaminated. So anything is possible and there are no certainties or absolutes when it comes to medicine.

Although Mary Ingalls was left blind after her illness, her body was able to kill the bacteria by raising her body temp so high. So even though Mary was never the same at least she survived her illness.
The same with Almanzo, his illness left him crippled but he lived to be 92.

Laurie wrote: "Oh, I believe you Marie so don't think I was doubting your word. :D
I was always interested in reading about the westward expansion as a child and found the Little House book fascinating. I didn'..."

Oh no, I didn't think you were at all, I was just saying that for me I know for certain. I've heard of Doctor G, but I also remember the twelve year old being in the news a few years ago.

I wouldn't be surprised that Helen Keller did have SF. I think doctors say it's unusual in most infants now because of some sort of natural antibodies during pregnancy, but things were so different medically at that time.

Sara wrote: "I have read quite a bit about Helen Keller recently (read her autobiography and went on a search for more info) and most seem to agree that she had scarlet fever although a few sources did say "unk..."

I see we share an interest in Helen Keller, I read her autobiography several years ago and I was pretty sure it gave her diagnosis as SF but it's been awhile and I wasn't positive. Thanks for the confirmation.

Modern medicine truly has been a godsend for these childhood diseases. My mother lived in Germany during WW2 and survived a diphtheria outbreak with no available treatments; she was the only survivor out of 12 classmates at her school that got the disease.

Oddly enough, I also got the disease as a very young child (prior to getting the vaccination). Some antibiotic shots, and all was well... except for the part about me being allergic to penicillin and the shot nearly killing me, lol. The doctor here called it the "croup", which is a term you almost never hear used anymore.

Didn't Patty Duke Astin just die from a ruptured appendix (complications after it actually)?

Yes, Erik, we forget how high child mortality was and that many of them died from childhood diseases. I never think of croup and diphtheria as being the same.

I did not know that Patty Duke's death was related to a ruptured appendix. We take for granted that with modern medicine those kinds of events are not life-threatening anymore...but of course they are. I was watching a piece on the death of Maurice Gibb the other day and was surprised that what killed him was a twisted intestine. An easily fixed birth defect that his twin, Robin, was then tested for, had and had repaired.

Erik wrote: "Modern medicine truly has been a godsend for these childhood diseases. My mother lived in Germany during WW2 and survived a diphtheria outbreak with no available treatments; she was the only surviv..."


Erik, I once saw pictures in an older medical book showing the diphtheria "casts" that slowly grew, closing off the windpipe, suffocating a child to death. Absolutely horrific how large some of these were too.
So sad that you're mother was the only survivor in her class at school - some women lost all their children at once from an outbreak which I find myself unable to comprehend. How could a mother survive such a tragedy? So difficult to fathom in this age of modern medicine and antibiotics.

Sara wrote: "Yes, Erik, we forget how high child mortality was and that many of them died from childhood diseases. I never think of croup and diphtheria as being the same.

I did not know that Patty Duke's dea..."

I watched the Maurice Gibbs documentary too Sara. I couldn't believe that his twin suffered the same rare condition as well.
I still say the Dr.'s should have immediately done exploratory surgery on Maurice but it's easy to play the Monday morning quarterback I suppose.

My goodness Erik, that's terrible. I'm glad your mother got well, but what a horrible thing to live through at such a young age, with so many of her peers dying. It makes you very grateful that we have the abilities to deal with illness that we have now.

Trust me when I say that the diseases were some of the "least" of her worries at that time. Things like starvation, being bombed day and night (she survived her schoolyard being strafed by American fighter planes... only because the bomb that was dropped was done so at too low an altitude to arm itself. It landed between her and my uncle. My Grandmother kept the bomb fins), and assaults by occupying American soldiers (yes, "those" kinds of assaults) were of far greater threat levels for a 15 year old girl.

You don't get to read much of those kinds of stories... it conflicts with the ideas of Allied righteousness. No book can hit you as hard as the telling of the memories by the people who lived it. Sadly, few are interested in hearing all the sides of the story.

Enough of my anti-war rant... let us turn back to the pages of our dear Dr. Frankenstein, and his upcoming struggles with the "monster".

I don't blame you for ranting Erik; I've read a few books that corroborate your account. Dresden was a war crime.

Rant all you want, Erik, no one here will mind. I always enjoy hearing stories from people who experienced these events from the other side. There were good people on both sides, and atrocities committed by both sides, I grew tired of the revisionist history used to manipulate people long ago. The illness and deaths still must have been horrible, but yes, she had far worse to live with.