Classics and the Western Canon discussion

(Sorry again for the length... this is a long chapter, but a great one.)

Darius prepares another expedition against the Greeks after the defeat at Marathon, but a revolt in Egypt interrupts him. After determining that Xerxes would succeed him (with difficulty, since Xerxes was not his oldest son), Darius dies. (Interestingly, Darius adopts a Spartan custom when he makes Xerxes his successor.)

Xerxes is not entirely certain about invading Hellas. He takes counsel from Mardonios, who wants to become governor of Hellas after the Persians victory, and he listens to the advice of various Greek traitors and fake oracles. He opens the topic for discussion and Artabanos warns him against the expedition because "the god likes to lop off whatever stands out above the rest." (Remember Thrasyboulos?) Xerxes is angered by Artabanos's advice, but he is swayed by it. Later Xerxes has an admonitory dream that urges him to war. He ignores it but the dream returns. He asks Artabanos to sleep in the royal garb to see if the dream will come to him, and it does, even though Artabanos has a very rational explanation for dreams. Artabanos is finally convinced that "some god-given distruction is to overtake the Hellenes."

Given the incredible hubris that Xerxes later demonstrates, why is he so hesitant to attack the Greeks?

The preparations for the expedition are colossal. Xerxes amasses a huge army and navy (the numbers are impossible to accept from an historical point of view) and embarks on massive projects meant as much as monuments to his own power as they are war efforts. The description of the troops is reminiscent of Homer's catalog of ships. He bridges the Hellespont (famously whipping the sea when a storm wrecks his bridge in progress) and digs a canal through the Athos peninsula.

Herodotus paints an outsized and cruel portrait of Xerxes, perhaps to build up the tension in the narrative. But when the bridge over the Hellespont is completed, he suddenly bursts into tears, moved by pity at the brevity of human life. (7.46) Artabanos responds that "death proves to be a human being's most welcome escape, and the god, who gives us merely a taste of sweetness in life, is revealed to be a jealous deity."  Artabanos reiterates his concern about the Persians' most formidable adversaries. Xerxes  bristles at this until Artabanos explains that by "adversaries" he means the land and the sea.

Xerxes doesn’t believe that the Greeks will stand up to the Persian forces because he doesn't think free men will fight if they don’t have to. Only those soldiers who are compelled and obedient to a master will fight as a unit. (At 7.223, during the battle of Thermopylae, Herodotus has Persian leaders flogging their soldiers forward.) Demaratos explains that on the contrary, Spartan soldiers are no worse than other men when they fight individually, but they are stronger when they fight together. "For though they are free, they are not free in all respects, for they are actually ruled by a lord and master: law is their master..." (7.104)

Many of the Hellenes surrender to Xerxes by offering earth and water, but Athens and Sparta have already communicated their refusal by killing Persian heralds who had earlier been sent for the same purpose. This killing resulted in bad omens for the Spartans. They atone for it by sending two of their own nobles to Xerxes, presumably to die. But Xerxes does not kill them; he shows remarkable practicality and intelligence by refusing to release the Spartans from their guilt. He sends the Spartans home. He does something similar when he lets enemy grain ships sail through the Hellespont unmolested, saying, "Are we not also sailing to the very same place that they are...?"

Herodotus then turns to the Hellenes. He offers his opinion that without the Athenians, the Greeks would have lost the war. (He says this might offend some of the Hellenes, but that it is true nevertheless.) The Athenians send to the oracle at Delphi for advice and the response is overwhelmingly negative. The Athenians do not panic at the bad news but instead consult the oracle again. The answer this time is a little more favorable: the oracle says "a wall made of wood does farsighted Zeus to Tritogenes grant...to help you and your children." Themistocles interprets this to mean that the Athenians should prepare for a sea battle --the walls of wood are ships. 

The Hellenes first put aside their differences and agree to cease all hostilities. (Compare this with the Ionian preparations for war after they revolt from Persia.) Some states, such as Sicily and Corcyra remain neutral, waiting to see who which side will emerge victorious. 

The Greek force travels by sea to the pass of Tempe but retreat when they learn how large the Persian army is. They finally resolve to confront the Persians in the pass at Thermopylae, where there is at least a chance that a small force can hold off a large one. Meanwhile the fleet anchors at Artemision. As the Persian fleet approaches Magnesia, a storm destroys over 400 of their ships, but the Persian army meets the Greeks at Thermopylae. 

The Greek army is led by Leonidas, the Spartan king, despite the fact that most of the Spartans have stayed behind to celebrate the festival of the Karneia (shades of the first Persian war.) Xerxes sends a scout to the pass to see what the Greeks are doing. He reports back that they are exercising and combing their hair. Xerxes is astonished, but Demaratos explains that this is how Spartans prepare for battle. Xerxes waits four days, expecting the Greeks to flee. Finally the Persians attack, but find stiff resistance. After two days a Greek traitor named Ephialtes informs the Persians about a path around the mountain that will allow them to surround and destroy the Greeks. The Greeks learn about the Persian approach from a prophet who predicts their destruction at dawn. The oracle at Delphi had already predicted that either Sparta would be depopulated or a Spartan king would die in the war. Leonidas sends most of the Greek army away and prepares for a last stand with 300 Spartans.

I know it's been said before, but I really do appreciate your concise summaries, Thomas. It helps to focus thoughts at the end of each book, especially the more momentous ones like Book Seven.

On the question of Xerxes' hesitation, the advice of Artabanos obviously really strikes a chord with him, especially the line (in the Holland translation) about "how it is creatures of an overbearing size that God strikes down with his thunderbolts". All the talk of rivers being drunk dry adds to the sense of Xerxes' war machine being out of proportion with the natural order of things, and this is echoed in the strange and unnatural portents like (in 7.57) the mare giving birth to a hare and the hermaphrodite mule. In the book's closing battle scenes too, the powerful image of the Persian arrows blotting out the sun also adds to this sense of an imbalance in the natural order.

There's so much to say about this book, but just a few comments for now:

1) It was surprising to read that there were wild lions roaming around northern Greece (7.125) at this time.
2) Themistocles is obviously much better at interpreting oracles (7.144) than many of the characters we've encountered so far.
3) It was pretty clear already, but the way that Herodotus can give detailed descriptions of the troops and list the names of all of the Spartan 300, underlines again his formidable memory.

Dave wrote: "All the talk of rivers being drunk dry adds to the sense of Xerxes' war machine being out of proportion with the natural order of things, and this is echoed in the strange and unnatural portents like (in 7.57) the mare giving birth to a hare and the hermaphrodite mule."

Xerxes seems to have little regard for the natural order when he bridges the continents between East and West (and "punishes" the sea when it resists) and when he cuts a canal through the Athos peninsula. But nature does fight back, and it seems to side with the Hellenes almost exclusively.

I know this is "history" (or "inquiry") but it's hard not to see symbolism in the work sometimes. The lions that you mention made me think of the lion gate of Mycenae -- and that these lions attack only the camels seems all too appropriate.

Dave wrote: "...Xerxes' war machine being out of proportion with the natural order of things, and this is echoed in the strange and unnatural portents like (in 7.57) the mare giving birth to a hare and the hermaphrodite mule."

Thanks for helping me make this connection. It also explains the eclipse in 7.37 and the earthquake that shakes Delos back in book 6 (foreshadowing?)

Artabanus’ advice is great, particularly for Xerxes who likes things BIG! Ever the voice of reason, Artabanus even suggests initially that Xerxes dream isn’t a sign “…dreams don’t come from god, my dear boy…. the dream visions that orbit our minds usually come from what we have been thinking during the day, and our days have been very busy with this invasion recently.” Of course, Artabanus is persuaded, but it is to this voice of reason that Xerxes entrusts his kingdom as he heads off to large adventures of war.

Ashley wrote: "Artabanus’ advice is great, particularly for Xerxes who likes things BIG! Ever the voice of reason, Artabanus even suggests initially that Xerxes dream isn’t a sign “…dreams don’t come from god, my..."

After all of the instances of oracles and prophecy it's almost shocking to hear such a rational explanation for dreams. But Artabanos is persuaded by the dream, as you say...

I sometimes wonder if discussions like this still go on in the defense departments of modern world powers. The art of persuasion is not an entirely rational activity. When the Athenians receive a bad prophecy from the Pythia, they go back and get a better one.

So, I did find the detailed descriptions of the various battle dress to be interesting & sometimes appeared funny as I envisioned them. I supposed that the different applications to the helmets were to intimidate the enemy and perhaps make them look taller. Yet, at 7.117, he notes that Artachales was the tallest of the Persians , standing 8 ft tall!!

Dave @2 said: 1) It was surprising to read that there were wild lions roaming around northern Greece (7.125) at this time.

Me too!!

Thomas said: They atone for it by sending two of their own nobles to Xerxes, presumably to die. But Xerxes does not kill them; he shows remarkable practicality and intelligence by refusing to release the Spartans from their guilt. He sends the Spartans home. He does something similar when he lets enemy grain ships sail through the Hellespont unmolested, saying, "Are we not also sailing to the very same place that they are...?"

I thought many of his tactics were brilliant. I'd add the part where he sent the spies back to exclaim over the size & potential power of his army, that the Hellenes might back down & there would be no need to march the army against them . (7.147) He couldn't imagine the determination of some of the Hellenes to not be conquered.

Chris wrote: "So, I did find the detailed descriptions of the various battle dress to be interesting & sometimes appeared funny as I envisioned them. I supposed that the different applications to the helmets wer..."

I wonder if the Persian soldiers with their wicker shields and short swords knew what they were up against when they engaged a Spartan phalanx of oak and bronze shields, bristling with 8-14 ft. long spears. I doubt the tiaras were of great comfort. Herodotus doesn't explain the battle in a lot of detail, but if the numbers are even close to accurate, the number of corpses piling up in the pass must have been an obstacle in itself. The Spartans are celebrated for their bravery, but there was obviously a lot of bravery on the Persian side as well.

Sections 12 to 17:
Darius' dream vision. Artabanus come up with a logical explanation for the dream.
Darius then asks Artabanes to sleep in his bed and wear his nightclothes (those of Darius) to see if the dream comes to him--and it does.
I find this especially hard to believe, but apparently the logical Artabanes was convinced by the dream and agreed that they should go to war with the Greeks.
It appears from this that many important decisions were made by interpreting dreams and visions just as in the Old Testament. I found it interesting that Artabanes, the former skeptic was convinced by his dream and even suffered pain. (Section 18).

Rosemarie wrote: "Sections 12 to 17:
Darius' dream vision. Artabanus come up with a logical explanation for the dream.
Darius then asks Artabanes to sleep in his bed and wear his nightclothes (those of Darius) to s..."

Yes, such a key passage, and I wonder who this tall and handsome man might be, who appears to Xerxes first, encouraging him to go war? The assumption is that it's the same ghostly figure that appears to Artabanus in the second dream, threatening to burn out his eyes. It's interesting that Herodotus doesn't speculate on the identity of this figure who appears in both dreams.

It reminds me of the early passage in the book, when Astyages (grandfather of Cyrus) had a prophetic dream of a vine springing forth from the womb of his daughter and spreading across Asia. Xerxes' final dream, before committing to war, has echoes of Astyages' dream, with its vision of wearing a crown with olive tree branches that spread and cover the entire earth. However, in Xerxes' dream, the branches (and crown) then vanish. Here, I think the role of the magi is key; if they had not sought to flatter Xerxes, they could have advised him better and suggested that this vanishing crown might be a very bad omen for him.

Ashley wrote: "Dave wrote: "...Xerxes' war machine being out of proportion with the natural order of things, and this is echoed in the strange and unnatural portents like (in 7.57) the mare giving birth to a hare..."

Yes, such a strong sense of foreshadowing in the later books, almost as if Herodotus is as much a tragic dramatist as an historian.

Section 34: the destruction of the newly built bridge by a storm seems to me to be an ominous omen for Xerxes.
His reaction was incredilby arrogant and cruel.

I am constantly amazed at the utter arrogance of Xerxes.

Sections 104-105.
Xerxes does not comprehend what Demaratus means when D. says that the Spartans will fight to the end. He doesn't understand the Spartan mentality and their attitude towards battle. He does not listen to advice but is convinced that he is always right and that his "enemies" have the same attitude to battle as his troops.
I know that some one in the group mentioned his hubris and his disregard for omens, and that the history has overtones of a Greek tragedy. I totally agree with this point of view.
I find the list of all the land and sea troops and the description of their battle dress a bit long- winded. I am sure it is important, but it really slows down the histories.

Rosemarie wrote: "I find the list of all the land and sea troops and the description of their battle dress a bit long- winded. I am sure it is important, but it really slows down the histories. "

This is very reminiscent of the catalog of ships in the Iliad, and in all likelihood it is meant to sound that way. To me it sounds like the song "I've Been Everywhere." Herodotus wants to give credit to every city that participated.

There are other Homeric echoes in the battle of Thermopylae. The role of Leonidas seems similar to that of Achilles; on the other hand, the way his body is abused is reminiscent of the way Achilles abuses the body of Hector. When Xerxes ignores the advice of Demaratos it reminds me of Hector ignoring the advice of Polydamas. It's hard to say if Herodotus intends to "quote" Homer precisely, or if he is just using cultural motifs that his readers would be familiar with, but it does seem to be part of his narrative strategy.

I like this quote from #152:
For myself, my duty is to report all that is said; but I am not obliged to believe it all alike--a remark which may be understood to apply to my whole History.

#191: Herodotus comments on the sacrifice which stopped the storm that destroyed part of the Persian fleet. Then he made an apt comment saying that perhaps the storm abated on its own. Most storms do not last more than four days in one area. He is an observant writer.

Patrice wrote: "Dave wrote: "I know it's been said before, but I really do appreciate your concise summaries, Thomas. It helps to focus thoughts at the end of each book, especially the more momentous ones like Boo..."

Yes, agree the authorial voice is strong there.

It's just a pity that Artabanos' reasoned resolve melts away in the face of a fearsome dream. One of the unsolved mysteries of the book for me is the identity of the ghostly figure that appears to Artabanos and Xerxes, convincing them both to throw caution to the wind.

Patrice, I checked with my Oxford annotatated Bible and you are totally on the right track. In fact, they are the same person.

Yes, I find it interesting when history from different traditions overlap, in this case the Biblical and the Greek.

When I first read about Xerxes whipping the Hellespont, I thought he must be crazy -- bipolar might be a good guess. But your point about the rivers being addressed as gods is important -- the rivers are treated as gods (some rivers anyway) in Greek mythology and this makes Xerxes even worse than crazy -- he's sacrilegious. He is beyond grandiose. He's the epitome of transgression.

Yes, it is generally thought that Herodotus was writing during the first part of the Peloponnesian War, before the truce. One of the things that troubles me about the Histories is how often the Persians sound like Greeks, but the reason for this might be what you're touching on -- Herodotus seems to be "back-reading" a bit, using the Persian war to indirectly comment on the war that was underway while he was writing. After the Persian war, the Athenians began to build their own empire and started to bully their neighbors just like the Persians did. But isn't this the way of all empires? They grow from greed and pride until they overextend themselves and fail.

O ye of little faith! Next you'll be doubting the gold-digging ants and winged reptiles of Arabia... But as far as the Indians go, it sounds like "India" for Herodotus means the southern part of the Indus valley, which is today southern or southwestern Pakistan. The area H. describes as India is definitely a desert, so I imagine if Indians did actually participate in the expedition they would have lived south of the Himalayas and traveled west through the desert.

Yeah, it makes me wonder who those "many people" are who would be offended... not Athenians, obviously, who wouldn't have been offended. Who was Herodotus writing for? I can imagine if his audience were pro-Spartan, and he's writing in the midst of the Peloponnesian War, that none of them wanted to hear anything good about the Athenians. But without the Athenian navy there would have been no Peloponnesian War to fight -- all of Greece would have been enslaved by the Persians.

Just on the Athenian navy, I came across this article thanks to following Tom Holland (translator of The Histories) on Twitter:
my link text

There's a nice artistic reconstruction of the newly discovered ship sheds, which may have housed the triremes that won the Battle of Salamis.

Thanks for the link, Dave. Fascinating discovery, though hearing about the pollution in the Piraeus harbor is disheartening.

The attribution to Plato caught my eye -- the link in the article leads to Plutarch's biography of Themistocles, in which he quotes Plato's Laws. Both Plutarch and Plato agree on the importance of the role that the navy played, but Plato seems to think that the Athenians paid a moral price because naval warfare is by its nature detrimental to a nation's character.

Athenian:
...And indeed it would have profited them to lose seventy times seven children [706c] rather than to become marines instead of staunch foot-soldiers; for marines are habituated to jumping ashore frequently and running back at full speed to their ships, and they think no shame of not dying boldly at their posts when the enemy attack; and excuses are readily made for them, as a matter of course, when they fling away their arms and betake themselves to what they describe as “no dishonorable flight.” These “exploits” are the usual result of employing naval soldiery, and they merit, not “infinite praise,” but precisely the opposite...

Clinias:
... None the less, Stranger, it was the sea-fight at Salamis, fought by the Greeks against the barbarians, which, as we Cretans at least affirm, saved Greece.

Athenian:
Yes, that is what is said by most of the Greeks and barbarians. [707c] But we—that is, I myself and our friend Megillus—affirm that it was the land-battle of Marathon which began the salvation of Greece, and that of Plataea which completed it; and we affirm also that, whereas these battles made the Greeks better, the sea-fights made them worse,—if one may use such an expression about battles that helped at that time to save us... Laws, 4.706-707

Finding myself baffled and intrigued by the comment from the Athenian that "the sea-fights made them [the Greeks] worse". I'm wondering what purpose is served by making a moral distinction between land and naval warfare; as Patrice mentions, sailors do have a reputation for indulging in all manner of vices, but I'm not sure that's what Plato is getting at here. It seems he's making a point about the nature of warfare on land and sea, and that being on a boat gives you more options to take flight and act cowardly.

Seems to me that geography trumps any of these notions of the best way for a country to defend itself. From a UK perspective, living here on an island adrift from the European continent, many of the country's great existential battles were fought against the odds by sea (Spanish Armada) and air (Battle of Britain), so a strong land army of morally upright soldiers wouldn't have been very useful in either situation.