The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

A lot happening in this section!

One, we meet the Reverand Septimus Crisparkle. To me, he and Mr. Grewgious are the two characters in the novel so far that are most like the normal Dickens' characters. He dotes on his mother, tries to help Mr. Neville with his anger issues, and just exudes kindness.

Two, what do you think about Mr. Neville? Mr. Neville is set up as a dangerous threat, a young man (because of his upbringing) with his clenched fist, who is unable to control his temper. Is he a threat to Edwin Drood? Why doesn't he like Edwin (I see two reasons why he doesn't like Edwin)?

Three, what role do you think that Miss Helena will play? She has befriended Rosabud. She is able to control her brother (somewhat).

Four, Edwin Drood is clearly troubled. Why? I have my theory but I would like to hear yours first.

Five, we also see a confirmation of how Rosabud feels about a marriage to Edwin, particularly in her questions to Mr. Grewgious about what . She clearly likes Edwin, but does not love Edwin, and wants to see if they are required to marry.

Six, we find out from Rosabud that she dislikes Jasper. What are her reasons for disliking him? (I am finding Jasper more and more creepy....)

Seven, we are introduced to Mr. Grewgious. I like him. How is he described? What is personality like? In his thoughts after meeting with Edwin, what secret to you think that Mr. Grewgious has that is connected to Rosabud?

Lastly, I am interested to see how the ring plays into the story, and what role Mr. Grewgious' clerk will have in the story.

The clerk has a great name, Bazzard, something like Buzzard, though it seems both he and Grewgious are good-hearted. And the name Landless reflects that the twins have no real home.

The scenes with the fight and its aftermath were kind of surprising. There didn't seem to be much justification for Neville getting so angry. But maybe there's a certain psychological rightness to it. Since he grew up with some kind of abuse and no opportunities, respect may take on an outsize status. It's the same thing that happens today with young men stabbing or shooting each other because they think the other person "disrespected" them. And aside from the whole Rosa question, Edwin seems the type of happy-go-lucky, entitled young man that Neville would resent.

I haven't read ahead and know nothing of the rest of the book, but it seems that the lovers are to be swapped around eventually, since Neville loves Rosa at first sight and Edwin is impressed by Helena. And both Rosa and Edwin seem less than thrilled with their engagement, which we find out isn't even required in order to inherit.

As for Jasper, I think his ill health will catch up with him and he'll die an edifying Dickensian death, blessing the young lovers. Or he'll die mysteriously and someone will be blamed. So far there is very little mystery about Edwin, as he seems very straightforward.

Mr Grewgious apparently was in love with Rosa's mother, but she may not even have known it.

Oh no, Robin, I think Helena is destined for the Rev Crisparkle-I was initially put off by his name but he is such a good man and clearly has taken a bit of a shine to the lovely Helena. His kindness to her brother will doubly endear him to her. I think Edwin is a somewhat thoughtless young man, and the way he talks about Rosa and the nickname is really somewhat disrespectful.

I thoroughly enjoyed the insufferable Mr Honeythunder-Dickens is at his best when he takes on hypocrisy and bluster, and Mr Honeythunder was full of both. My favourite section, though, was the passage in Ch 9 at the Nun's House-the way the rumours of the fracas arrived, and then Miss Twinkleton's speech to the girls on the subject, with frequent asides to admonish the girls, culminating in the dinner table scene of the girls acting out the fight with a paper moustache, a water bottle and soup spoon. I laughed aloud throughout this section.

Dickens may have been ill while writing this, but his powers to entertain and his humour and eye for the ridiculous remain intact.

I like the Crisparkles and the description of Honeythunder and his voice:
I should call him a large man....but that his voice is so much larger.
Than himself?
Than anybody.
He is a very egotistical man and I pity Helen and Neville Landless because they are dependent on him.
We have two young men and two young ladies. Helen seems to be much stronger and independent than Rosa sinc she has not been pampered the way Rosa has.
When Neville and Edwin got violent, my first thought was, " Did Jasper put anything in their drinks?" He has opium, so he might have other drugs as well.
I like Mr. Grewgious, the "Angular Man".

After reading chapter 10, I get the impression that Jasper is up to something. His diary entries and dramatic reactions to the fight between Edwin and Neville are exaggerated. Edwin himself said that the fight was no big deal, that they were equally at fault. Everything about Jasper is suspicious. I think he is going to do away with Edwin and blame Neville. That way he can get the money to pay for his habit and maybe marry Rosa. She has a feeling that he can't be trusted. That is why she doesn't want him to see the will.

Mr. Grewgious has a romantic nature, but also a good judge of character. He senses that Edwin does not love Rosa as much as he should. The sadness and doubt that he feels when he gives Edwin the ring tells me that he was fond of, if not in love with Rosa's mother.
Is something going to happen at Christmas?

Edwin said the fight was no big deal, but Neville didn't feel that way. He kept insisting he was right to be angry and unconsciously making fists to the dismay of Crisparkle.

Mr. Grewgious is a heartbreaking romantic. I agree that he probably had a crush on Rosa's mother; some deep unrequited feelings. I love the way he handles Edwin. How he makes the young man reconsider so many of his positions, even the dismissive nickname, without confrontation. Brilliant character writing!

So far Grewgious and Crisparkle are my favorite characters.

And I agree with Rosemarie on Jasper and Neville. Jasper seems to be going out of his way to make Neville look bad and to keep that image in people's minds. Blowing the argument way out of proportion. Showing his "diary" around. It is very suspicious.

Also, I love the way Dickens layers the cathedral and Cloister throughput the story.

The writing in this book, and other Dickens novels as well. There is a subtle undertone of irony and mockery when he describes the annoying characters, like Mr. Honeythunder; and a gentleness when he describes Mr. Grewgious, for example.
I started reading Martin Chuzzlewit at the end of my trip while waiting at airports and on planes, and the writing there is the same. He creates such interesting characters that we sometimes overlook his talented writing.

Renee wrote: "Also, I love the way Dickens layers the cathedral and Cloister throughput the story."

My edition has notes about it being closely modeled on Rochester and the cathedral there.

Interesting. I keep wondering what else might have been layered in, if he'd had time to finish. The short novel The Chimes touches on some things that might have been revisited.

Rosemarie wrote: "After reading chapter 10, I get the impression that Jasper is up to something. His diary entries and dramatic reactions to the fight between Edwin and Neville are exaggerated. Edwin himself said th..."

I don't trust Jasper at all either! I have no idea what he's up to, but I like your theory - he does away with Edwin so he can have Rosa and then blame Neville.

Renee wrote: "Mr. Grewgious is a heartbreaking romantic. I agree that he probably had a crush on Rosa's mother; some deep unrequited feelings. I love the way he handles Edwin. How he makes the young man reconsid..."

He is a good man. And I agree that he had a crush on Rosa's mother.

And as Rosemarie said, he's a good judge of character.

Rosemarie wrote: "The writing in this book, and other Dickens novels as well. There is a subtle undertone of irony and mockery when he describes the annoying characters, like Mr. Honeythunder; and a gentleness when ..."

We do overlook Dickens' talent. I truly believe that he's one of the most underrated writers in the English language.

There are so many subtle elements, partly comical, partly mocking - there are also revolving items from his previous novels:

I found it funny that Mr. Crisparkle wears glasses on purpose so that his mother feels better about herself.
There was also a hint at "false" philanthropy like in BH and LD.
I also liked the description of Mr. Honeythunder and the story around the Landless children which also reminded me a little of DC and BH.
Rosa's mother obviously drowned - the water taking a life, we have seen this in different ways before as well.

Then the fog of London reappears from previous novels, burning your eyes due to the high air pollution/ smog.
The Circumlocution Office is also mentioned as in LD.

You all have already commented on the characters, I cannot add that much. To me at this point Jasper seems to be more mysterious than Edwin whose mystery is the title.

Hedi, I like your comment about the glasses. It took me a long time to admit that I needed reading glasses, so I can relate to Mrs. Crisparkle. Everyone else in my family is short-sighted, so they all wear glasses anyway.
I agree about Jasper being more mysterious than Edwin.

I'm sorry to be behind, but have just finished this section. Allow me to respond to everyone and add my own two cents...

I'm finding myself a bit put off by the names in this novel. Normally I love the way Dickens plays with names, but I feel as if he's being silly rather than clever with Honeythunder, Crisparkle, and Twinkleton all in one book (though individually, I quite like the names Twinkleton and Crisparkle!).

Like Rosemarie, I immediately suspected Jasper of putting something in Edwin and Neville's drinks. It didn't seem as though they'd had enough to get as drunk as they did. The diary entrees were suspicious as well.

I think the only thing Edwin is hiding is his reservations about being stuck with Rosa for the rest of his life. I don't blame him. As usual, Dickens has written his heroine in a way that makes me want to loathe her. The scene in which she and Helena retire to their chambers and pledge to become bosom friends is nauseating. Dickens insists on Helena calling her things like "my pretty one", referring to Rosa's "lovely little face", and "tenderly caressing the small figure", etc., etc., etc. We get it! Rosa's tiny, pretty, and childlike! Everyone is taken by her perfection! Is it any wonder I want to hate her?! But I try to remember that this is Dickens' flaw, not Rosa's, and I try to keep an open mind. I do hope she'll "man up" and let Edwin - and herself - off the hook for the nuptials.

I also wondered what transpired between the men that got them both angry. Frankly, any affront passed me by. But I like Robin's equating it to some of the violent young men we hear about on the news today. While it still doesn't make sense among civilized people, it does make the whole thing a bit more realistic.

I love Grewgious and the way he refers to himself as "angular" when, if fact, he's about as round and squishy as a man can be. I feel quite saddened by his unrequited love for Rosa's mother, which reminded me a bit of Mr. Boythorn in Bleak House. He does seem to have an attachment to her ring, but not enough, in my mind, that he'd do anything desperate in order to get it back. Does anyone think he harbors romantic feelings for Rosa? So far they seem avuncular, but what with her being perfect and all, perhaps they go deeper. ;-)

This is the first Dickens I've read that has me thinking in a "whodunit" sort of way. I don't know if it's because I've read enough of the plot to know what mystery is awaiting us, or if his writing is actually different in this one and lends itself to more questions. I don't remember feeling this way about Tulkinghorn in BH, for example. Perhaps Dickens had honed his mystery writing skills (or dumbed them down so that a reader like me would be drawn in more quickly!).

Oh - one thing I don't believe anyone else has commented on - this passage:

he leaves the house.

When he first emerges into the night air, nothing around him is still or steady; nothing around him shows like what it is; he only knows that he stands with a bare head in the midst of a blood-red whirl, waiting to be struggled with, and to struggle to the death.

But, nothing happening, and the moon looking down upon him as if he were dead after a fit of wrath, he holds his steam-hammer beating head and heart, and staggers away. Then, he becomes half-conscious of having heard himself bolted and barred out, like a dangerous animal; and thinks what shall he do?

Some wildly passionate ideas of the river dissolve under the spell of the moonlight on the Cathedral and the graves, and the remembrance of his sister, and the thought of what he owes to the good man who has but that very day won his confidence and given him his pledge. He repairs to Minor Canon Corner, and knocks softly at the door.

Sounds to me like Neville not only has an anger problem, but was considering suicide. Why? He's obviously a very unhappy young man regardless of Edwin. I'm glad he has Crisparkle. I am a bit wary of his relationship with Helena. They seem bonded over more than just being fraternal twins. Are there any twins among our group who can give us some insights?

Jasper does seem to be a menacing character. It looks like he is getting to plan some nefarious deed. I like Neville, even though he is so short tempered. I can'y see him planning anything bad, but he does have trouble getting his emotions under control, doesn't he?

Liadagh wrote: "Just occurred to me - perhaps Grewgious, the lawyer was up to no good. Dickens' hated lawyers after all. "

Oh, I hope not. I quite liked Grewgious! But I suppose we'll never know. The silver lining to not having an ending is I can make any assumptions that make me happy. :-)

I really like Grewgious, I can't see him doing anything bad. Jasper, on the other hand...