Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be a time for that sort of frippery...


So I write a book, actually the fourth, and it's good. I mean it is GOOD... at last something that i do not have to bribe my brother to read with promises of villas in Majorca (villas not villains). It is good enough to get to number 1 on youwriteon.com and has more than forty positive reviews... the Eve White agency also show some interest but want me to spend money on it first and then they may not take it anyway...thanks, but no thanks.

And finally after a millennia of editing and rewriting you come to the conclusion that if you don't stick it on Amazon then you might as well go back to farming gerbils for the cosmetics trade.

So, you put it up there, FOR SALE, and then you coax and beg your family and friends to support you.... good luck with that. You may find an underlying horrible truth that most people just don't really care what you've done unless they can see you being led away by police on the six o'clock news.

SO reviews... they come, a few. but it just doesn't seem to be catching on... where is the big rush from the billion people out there that should be beating your electronic door down to read it? Well the terrifying silence is worse than the silence of the lambs... because at least with lambs you have something cute to look at if you're a vegetarian and something to salivate over if you eat meat.
So you find a friend of a friend or a geek of a geek you know who has made someone else millions of dollars somehow... Cool, off you go, thinking that you are just about to meet the new Messiah...
You then sit in a room talking to people who have never seen the sun and are almost translucent from living indoors all their lives... and they tell me "You need to have a platform... have you got a platform?"
"Erm," i reply (pretty erudite for a writer)... "I built a tree-house once..."

You see, i was built with imagination and that's it. i have a friend who is very clever... he's the guy i'd call in 'who wants to be a millionnaire' but he has NO imagination. He admits it, and he earns stupid amounts of money in software. Meanwhile i have zero intelligence but an overactive imagination gland and i'm making about $1 a day selling my book.

So, you know you have to write the second book, the sequel, but how? No one gave a damn about the first one so why in hell do you want to go through the whole process again? Good Point! But in the end, if you are like me, (and i sincerely hope you are not, for your sake...) it is the story that matters. The visions before you finally sleep, the ghosts that follow you into the shower, the shadows that walk behind you... they must be released.

And there is always the hope that, a thousand years from now some scavenger will be digging through the ruins of a building and find my book and he'll sit down, open the first page and say: "merde! Je ne lis pas l'anglais."

Hey Duncan
Never give up if writing is a passion for you. None of us authors are marketers and it is difficult to put your novel out there and its also a steep learning curve. My novel was published by Smashwords and Mark the guy who runs the site has some straight talking for most new authors - its not easy to be writer, publishers and seller. I found this to be true. In fact, instead of writing I find myself constantly marketing and it is draining. Chin up and all that - connect with YA folks here on Goodreads and make some connections. All the best of luck.

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

You have a blog. It made me laugh, when I wasn't nodding agreement. You engaged your reader, therefore you can write. You are 100% correct when you say you should write a sequel. Think about it. You want to share your work so you run a free promotion. Properly advertised, which needn't cost the earth, you get maybe 1000 downloads. Some of them will be read and enjoyed, but what do those readers do next? Look for something else you've written, find nothing and forget you. Give them the goodies and make sure they can find a home for their cash when they search for more.

If you're earning $1 a day you're doing better than the vast majority of authors on Amazon.

The fact is your book is just a pin in a pin factory. Even authors who are picked up by a mainstream publisher and who have the benefit of advertising and exposure in bookshops often don't sell enough for the publisher to recover their outlay.

But unlike an author who is with a big time publisher, an indie writer has the freedom to write another book, a sequel or something entirely new. The one thing that has proven to help set a writer on the road to success is sheer volume.

Most prominent writers have a mountain of short stories and articles, as well as rejected manuscripts behind them.

An author has to believe in him or her self even if no one else will. And if he or she doesn't have another story to tell, and another, and another, they perhaps that person should look for something else to spend time on.

Book 8 out at the end of the month and yet every word of this topic rings true. Does not mean I will stop though. Just writing for myself and a few readers may be all I can hope for but I can hope.

Then there are the sudden reviews from someone across the world or along the road which makes it worthwhile and gets the hope going again.

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

If you are writing because you expect to get rich at it, you're doing it for the wrong reason. The majority of books (and that is of *all* books, Big 5 published or not) sell 100 copies or less. In a brick-and-mortar store, if you don't sell a lot, and quickly, you get "remaindered" because real estate is limited there.

If you are not spreading your availability far and wide electronically, you are making a mistake. By that I mean that if you are limiting yourself to Amazon only, you are not widely discoverable. If you went with KDP-S thinking it was a sure key to riches, that was a mistake. The *minute* your mandatory 90 days are over, switch to KDP regular and put your book on Smashwords for distribution. That gets you into 20 different channels at this point, including B&N, Kobo (with all of their international outlets ... did you know that ePub is far more popular abroad than .mobi? Now you do.).

You need to be marketing. Do you have a website? An e-mail list? A Facebook page? What are you doing to promote your book besides putting in on Amazon?

Just a few thoughts from someone who has been at this a whle.

I'm curious to know in what way the agency Eve White wanted money from you?

If you're writing because you love to write, it doesn't matter how many books you sell. What matters is that you enjoyed writing the book, and any people who actually do buy it enjoyed it. In which case, you should write as many books as you have stories to tell, and have fun, while considering any sales a bonus.

If you're writing to get rich, you're most likely to end up disappointed, because the percentage of authors who make a lot of money from their books is extremely low. Quite frankly, if you're making an average of a dollar a day on your book, you're already doing better than most people. If the money is your motivation, you should stop writing now, and go find something else to do with your time.

Personally, I write because I love to, and because I feel I have to. I have stories inside me that need to be told. I'd write even if nobody was reading my books. Do I sell loads of copies? No. But, you know what? I still keep writing. I have over 40 books out, and those who have taken the time to review them generally seem to enjoy them (and I'm not talking about family members, though the family members who brought them enjoyed them too... I'm talking about random people who read and reviewed my books). Would I like to sell more books? Absolutely! But I'm going to keep writing, and keep publishing my books, whether people are buying them or not. Why? Because I love to write the stories, and feel that stories should be shared with the world. So, I'll write them, publish them, and at least know I'm giving the stories a chance to be read. Who knows, maybe one day all my attempts at getting people to buy my books will pay off? But then again, maybe not.

You mentioned you have over 40 reviews so after that I kind of lost what you were trying to get at. If you have that many reviews then the struggle couldnt have been all that hard no offense.

there's a difference between reviews and people buying your books. Reviews still do not make people who have never heard of you come to browse your books, because they don't know you exist

If you make a dollar a day, you really have nothing to complain about -:)
Two books might double your income, but nothing's guaranteed -:)

I have many fewer than forty reviews for a book. I would be delighted to get that many. I was told early on that the more books you have on the market, the better the chances you will find an audience. That hasn't happened to me yet, although I just published my third book. I love to write, so I will keep on writing, but I would love to see my books on bookstore shelves (my current push) and would love to have lots of reviews (also a push.) In consolation for myself, I consider the writers who have plugged along for years without a big breakout novel. I just looked up Hillary Mantel who won the Man Booker prize for Wolf Hall. Wolf Hall was her twelfth novel. In all that time she was writing, she was becoming a better writer, and honing her craft, and finding the subjects that she really loved. Some parts of writing a novel have become easier the more I write, and I do love to make up stories. I do not love revising my writing, but even then, I can find ways to make my books better.

Marc wrote: "I'm curious to know in what way the agency Eve White wanted money from you?"

They did not want money from me, they wanted me to send it to a literary agency that they have a partnership with... take it there spend a grand and come back to us.... but it may not be enough etc. they were nice about it but i didn't have the money!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas.... don't worry i'm not a jaded old hack yet, but i do like to write thoughts down when the black cloud of doom is overhead! So yes, the next book will come dragged from my subconscious like a particularly recalcitrant tapeworm! I'm glad some of this rings true for others.
I will certainly take some advice given here and hope that the next push might just set the mighty Flintstaff and Cramp on the road to immortality without the need of the famous Lingzhi mushroom...

p.s. It's true... only French speaking people will survive an apocalypse. Strange but true!

Quel dommage!

Tara wrote: "Quel dommage!"

LOL!! You'll be alright! And polite too, from looking at your book. I went to one of those really posh schools in England (same one as Prince Charles) so i know a lot about etiquette it was taught to me through a 3 foot bamboo cane!!!

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

I feel you've hit all the right nails. It's a good thing we love what we do simply because our active imaginations will not be silenced. We can still dream of "recognition" for our cognition.

Writing is not like being a secretary, or a plumber. You are not a service provider. You are an artist. You are not going to be paid like a wage earner. You get paid like an actor.
Consider the Screen Actors Guild. This is the group that all actors belong to. Everyone you have ever seen speaking on the screen is a member. (Everyone who has no lines is an extra.) You look at Angelina Jolie or Harrison Ford and you think, wow! Actors are rich! But look at the income statistics from SAG. The average income of an actor is $5000 a year. This is =including= Angelina Jolie and Harrison Ford. MOST actors make almost no money at all. Harrison Ford is very very unusual.
And so it is with writers. The odds are you won't ever make any real money. Don't quit your day job. You likely will need it.

Duncan you sure can write!

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

Duncan, your blog made me laugh and nod in commiseration. Even when you have a great publisher, a lot of the marketing is up to you and your imagination. And, yes, you'll bribe friends and family with promises to walk their dogs in the hopes that they'll show up at author events and pretend that they haven't heard it all before. Whatever it takes.

The one big lesson I've learned about writing and publishing is this: It's a TWO-PART deal. Part One: Write. Part Two: Sell. Can't have one without the other. But, it's been my experience that you can learn how to love the marketing part. It's a chance to meet your readers! Talk about your passion! How great is that?

Now, if you can only find a group of readers with dogs that need walking...

So, so true. Thirteen sequels in, and I'm still looking for that platform!

You wrote a book and published it. That's great. You're making a dollar a day and that's great too. Now should write another book. Having more than one book out gives you more options when it comes to marketing. While you're writing that second book study marketing in your free time. These days writers need to be marketers too. Most don't like that, but if you can find a way to make marketing enjoyable you'll be ahead of most folks.

Good writing makes me happy when I read it. Books add to my quality of life. I like to think of the act of writing and the act of reading as an exchange of what's called "prana" in yoga or "chi" in Chinese medicine, the vital energy of life. I think of money as a kind of energy, a symbol of that exchange, of valuing it, but it's not the essence of it. The energy readers put into reviewing is another aspect of this exchange of life energy. That dollar a day is a piece of positive energy. Great post that started a great conversation. More energy. (Pardon my woo-woo-ness. It's how I see things.)

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

Oh my gosh! This was just what I needed this morning. I feel you on all counts. I will trade a mango for a banana at the border. I had the same experience with some family members. Don't you write for yourself? Sure I do, but golly it might be nice of someone ~anyone I actually knew would read it as well. ha ha. Great post, keep your chin up.

Having friends and family read your work is interesting - even if you ask everyone you know, it's not that many people.

The hard part comes after that. Getting them to recommend your work to people they know and you don't, and having those people read and repeat the cycle. The first group have a sense of obligation toward you that is not repeated in later groups. The writing has to overcome that, or you're dead in the water.

Duncan wrote: "only French speaking people will survive an apocalypse"

Mais oui!

Duncan,

In message 19 of this thread, Brenda points out quite correctly and realistically that the odds against a published author actually earning a comfortable living with their writing alone are astronomical. Only an extremely small number of published authors will ever attain commercial success.

My one and only novel was published Aug. 9, 2011 (4 1/2 years ago). As of the most recent quarterly sales report, only 1,002 units have been sold. Royalty payments to-date total $2,306.67. That equates to approximately $512.59 per year. I am very glad and extremely grateful that I do not depend upon royalties to support myself.

By all means, if writing means so much to you, continue to do so. But do so realizing that it is highly unlikely that you will achieve commercial success. On the other hand, some have, so why could you not eventually become one of them.

I wish you success!

I thought I could live off my writing and hammered out books. I was constantly told I'm decent but the audience was way too niche. so I program video games for a living (my other glorified hobby lolz). I'm selling more games than books so I publish maybe 2x a year now than 4. I can keep my mobile on lolz

Here is another case study. It is long, but there's not a dull word in it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/a...

Now: This guy is an established journalist. He is writing the cover story for ATLANTIC Magazine! He has been supporting himself with his writing for decades. Sure, he has made some financial miscalculations. But he has made more money from his writing than most of us ever will.

Think about it. And I am not kidding: Do not quit that day job! (There was even a band, of SF writers, in the 1980s, who called themselves the Don't Quit Yer Day Job Players. You never heard of them, did you. Well, music is the one field that is even less remunerative than fiction.)

Jim wrote: "Duncan,

In message 19 of this thread, Brenda points out quite correctly and realistically that the odds against a published author actually earning a comfortable living with their writing alone ar..."

A thousand copies is nothing to sneeze at. The average is somewhere around 2 - 4. Write more books! Sometimes, quantity can boost your sales of ALL your work. And selling 1000 books tells me that your writing and plotting are above average. Don't be discouraged, but ...

...don't give up your day job. At least you might have a nice second income to invest for your retirement or for play.

Duncan wrote: "Hi everyone,
Well, this is hardly the most uplifting beginning to a blog and i'm sure i should be posting fun stories of when i was smuggling bananas through The USSR on camels... but there will be..."

I attended a function a couple of years ago where Marcus Zusak was guest speaker. He told the audience that after his first book was published, he was scheduled to give a talk at a library. No one showed up—not a one—but they still made him speak!

Many would have given up, sensitive species that we writers are, but he kept writing.

'The Book Thief', his fifth book, sold 8 million copies, won a heap of awards, was translated into more than 30 languages and was adapted as a film!

So. Maybe think of your next book (book 5) as the magic number? (I'm screwed if I do that for myself. I've only published one book, also a GOOD one. Book 5 is too far away. I'm making number 2 my magic number.)

Only, with this next book of yours, the magic one, peut-être vous devriez traduire en français?

Aye! I'm currently writing book 6 and you're making way more than me if you're getting $1 per day!

Honestly, SL above speaks the truth.
I was so chuffed with my first book. And then I wrote more. Now I look back and go "aww, wasn't that cute?" :-) It's good, but I got better.

Yes, it frustrates the hell out of me.
A certain colour chart sounding book got read by billions, and wasn't even very good (imho). So why aren't truck loads of readers stumbling across my offerings?

I wish I had more hope for us all.
But let's face it. That lucky break has the word lucky in it.

So, write because you love it.
And take comfort knowing you're doing what you love.

Also, I refer you to my 'hug' post.
People still stumble across it and we hand out virtual hugs for moments like these in particular.

Chin up.
xx

(hug post if you want a hug:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... )

Marc wrote: "I'm curious to know in what way the agency Eve White wanted money from you?"

They, personally did not want money from me. what I meant was they push you to take it to a literary consultant which will cost you and then maybe again and then at the end they may not represent you anyway.

TL wrote: "Aye! I'm currently writing book 6 and you're making way more than me if you're getting $1 per day!

Honestly, SL above speaks the truth.
I was so chuffed with my first book. And then I wrote more..."

Lovely post, thanks, I feel hugged!!

Jim wrote: "Duncan,

In message 19 of this thread, Brenda points out quite correctly and realistically that the odds against a published author actually earning a comfortable living with their writing alone ar..."

Thanks Jim,

All of you lovely people who have replied to this post, all I can say is a big thank you!! I have started the sequel and have other books swimming around my mind like one-eyed goldfish; occasionally dropping dead and disappearing down the toilet.

You are all good people and (this is me being dumb) only just saw all the replies I have had, so sorry for not replying sooner.

Seems everyone wants to write a book and with so much for readers to choose from -- according to their taste in content -- it is not surprising that few authors have a healthy income from their efforts. I've been writing since my teens - journalism, short stories, non-fiction and fiction. I've had books published by Macmillan, Hamlyn and Allen&Unwin and self published others. But my income as an author has never come close to what I was earning as a foreign correspondent in East Asia, including 15 years with The New York Times. If you enjoy writing, keep plugging away. But don't give up your "day job".

Thanks Ian, sounds like you've had an interesting career... have you written a book about it?? (sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

Thanks for the encouragement... now I've just got to find that day job wherever it is....!

Not yet, Duncan. :-)
But much of my background is included in my blog, together with information on the books I have written.

http://iangstewart.typepad.com/my_web...

Ian wrote: "Not yet, Duncan. :-)
But much of my background is included in my blog, together with information on the books I have written.

http://iangstewart.typepad.com/my_web..."

Thanks, I will check it out.

Keep plugging, Duncan. Thanks for opening a much needed discussion. I came away with more than an accelerated obsession to learn the French language.

The primary ingredient in the recipe for success in any career or goal choice is determination, patience and continuous improvement.

Progress without the occasional setback is not reality. One must remain determined when confronted with disappointment or opposition. A mindset based upon continuously improving upon and fine-tuning basic and advanced skills directly and indirectly related to the targeted goal will result in continuous improvement.

Levels of achievement and success vary. One may not always achieve the ultimate goal desired; however, if the above philosophy is consistently adhered to, one will never actually fail.

I greatly sympathize, and I can only wish to be making a dollar a day at this point. But I'm currently getting excited about my second book, still in the very early stages. Maybe that will be The One! (But, probably not.)

I recently read Scott Adams' book, How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big: Kind of the Story of My Life, and I think it offers some real encouragement and sound advice. A memorable quote: "And always remember that failure is your friend. It is the raw material of success. Invite it in. Learn from it. And don't let it leave until you pick its pocket."

Jim wrote: "The primary ingredient in the recipe for success in any career or goal choice is determination, patience and continuous improvement.

Progress without the occasional setback is not reality. One mus..."

And each book should get better.

When I was working for AKW Books, we brought in a new author named John Bowers. He had a ton of stories running around in his head and he was a fair dinkum writer. In fact, after some coaching, he got good enough that after a few books, his stories and a couple other authors were paying our bills (and giving him a nice second income for a few small luxuries).

After AKW's owners died off and the last one retired, John was picked up by FTL Press (you have to be GOOD to be invited in by them -- you can't apply cold). John continued to be prolific and currently has 17 science fiction books being marketed and is making a good retirement income. No, he's not getting rich, but he's finally gotten to the point where its worth his time to write.

For a look at his stuff: http://www.amazon.com/John-Bowers/e/B...

And of course, everyone has seen how well Hugh Howey did. He too, worked at it for quite a while before one of his short stories hit it big (surprising the heck out of him).

Lesson: Keep plugging and improving your work. It CAN happen to you. BUT don't give up your day job until lightning does indeed strike.

That's one writing model.

Another is: work forever and write one amazing mainstream book (Gone With the Wind or To Kill a Mockingbird); never write another thing.

That's the one I'm trying to get imitate.

I had to break it into three pieces (Createspace has a page limit), but I published the first part, and am working very hard on the middle book of the trilogy.

Lesson: don't publish anything until you think it's completely ready. I no longer have a day job.

@Miss Alicia: re "I no longer have a day job. "

Booyah!!!

I like your message, Duncan. Sure, most authors want to write that #1 New York Times best-seller, be able to quit their day job and just write for a living... but it's probably just not going to happen. Heck, I made back the money I spent on my cover art, and I consider myself very lucky. I've learned what everyone else on this thread has: write because it's fun. Any audience, no matter how small, makes the effort worthwhile.

Sometimes it can be difficult to stay positive when it seems no one notices you. However, every once in a while, you hear about how your book makes a difference in one person's life and it is an amazing feeling.

It might seem like a small triumph, but in the end isn't that what authors want to do? Make an impression on someone at some point in their lives? I try to hang on to that.