Queereaders discussion

This thread is for discussing Tipping the Velvet

the highly acclaimed novel by Sarah Waters set in Victorian times with lesbian themes, chosen by both the New York Times and The Library Journal as one of the best books of 1998.

This was read by the group very early in Queerreads existence - there are just a few comments in the original thread here as well: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Started reading the book and I am loving it so far! It's more fast-paced than I thought and I absolutely love Nancy and Kitty :)

Raul wrote: "Started reading the book and I am loving it so far! It's more fast-paced than I thought and I absolutely love Nancy and Kitty :)"

Good to hear Raul! I should be joining you in the group read soon, next week I hope. :)

I just finished the first chapter Raul, and I absolutely loved it!

What an engaging way to begin, with Nancy speaking to the reader in the second person "you" voice - very unique. I can almost smell, hear, and see the oyster shop, and her voice is wonderfully strong!

And then Kitty's first appearance also is electrifying - I love the way she's described, so vividly drawn!

I can't wait to read further!

Great to hear that you liked the chapter Greg! I was boarding the train with Nancy every time she went to see Kitty!

Raul wrote: "Great to hear that you liked the chapter Greg! I was boarding the train with Nancy every time she went to see Kitty!"

Me too Raul!

And I love her parents' sincere, heartfelt reactions to her going to London at the beginning of chapter 3. There's an odd sweetness and good naturedness to this book so far - most of the characters are basically well meaning; I love all the little endearing kindnesses. That combined with the incredibly vivid writing are making it so enjoyable for me.

I like all the little perceptions in the life of Kitty's and Nancy's evolving relationship - the details feel absolutely right in chapters 3 & 4: (view spoiler)[Nan's awkwardness the first time they sleep in the same bed, the tiff at the party which is really about all the things they aren't saying, and that powerful moment they share as they look at the frozen river (hide spoiler)].

The writing is so vivid, often so extraordinarily beautiful as well.

I especially love this part by the frozen river in chapter 4:

"... saw it all transformed - saw the lights of the Embankment, a belt of amber beads dissolving into the night; and the great dark jagged bulk of the Houses of Parliament looming over the river; and the Thames itself, its boats all moored and silent, its water grey and sluggish and thick, and rather strange....
'Look', she said. Her grief seemed all forgotten. Below us, in the water, there were great slivers of ice six feet across, drifting and gently turning in the winding currents, like basking seals.
The Thames was freezing over.
... I looked at the river again - at that extraordinary, ordinary transformation, that easy submission to the urgings of a natural law, that was yet so rare and so unsettling.
It seemed a little miracle, done just for Kitty and for me."

I noticed that about the language Greg! Sarah Waters describes the details of their lives in such beautiful prose yet the book seems to move at a rather pleasant pace.

The pace is great Raul! I haven't had huge amounts of time for reading the past few days, but I just don't want to put it down.

This took quite a dark turn though! The developments are sad but not at all unexpected; they do feel like a natural outgrowth of the characters' psychologies.

Given the era, I'm not surprised at her [chapter 5](view spoiler)[sister Alice's cold reaction to her letter (hide spoiler)], and I'd long been anticipating a collision between [chapter 6-7](view spoiler)[Kitty's need for social approval & fame and Nancy's need for a deep, real connection/commitment on every level. I kept hoping they'd find a way to get through it, but I feared they wouldn't. The cost of honesty would've been so high!

I can understand the terrible fear Kitty must've felt when the heckler shouted "Toms" at them on stage. What galls me is her cowardice afterwards in not telling Nan the truth, in pursuing something safer with Walter without even talking to Nan about her choice first. (hide spoiler)].

In chapters 8-9, why do you think Nan (view spoiler)[pursues the life of a rent boy (hide spoiler)]? It doesn't seem (view spoiler)[like she's doing it out of necessity. Is she punishing herself somehow; has it finally gotten to her, everyone else's prejudices against "Toms" .. in internalized homophobia? Or is she seeking oblivion? Or is she seeking to abase herself as a perverse revenge against Kitty? .. she mentions several times how some of her clients look like Walter. (hide spoiler)] I'm not sure exactly why.

Greg wrote: "The pace is great Raul! I haven't had huge amounts of time for reading the past few days, but I just don't want to put it down.

This took quite a dark turn though! The developments are sad but no..."

My theory as to why Nan did what she did in ch. 8-9 is completely Doylist: the author did a bunch of research and found out about (view spoiler)[the Victorian gay male underworld and decided to incorporate it into her book nonetheless. My Watsonian explanation is that at first she did it out of necessity, then she wanted revenge in that she could pull one over her clients. (hide spoiler)]

Alex wrote: "Greg wrote: "The pace is great Raul! I haven't had huge amounts of time for reading the past few days, but I just don't want to put it down.

This took quite a dark turn though! The developments a..."

That makes sense Alex, especially the Doylist one about the research. I'm not sure about the "necessity" though - at the time Nan started [chapter 9](view spoiler)[prostituting, she still had plenty of money left. She says in chapter 9, "I didn't even need the coins they gave me. I was like a person who, having once been robbed of all he owns and loves, turns thief himself - not to enjoy his neighbors' chattels, but to spoil them." It's a bit weird, almost like a dark psychological need to feel like she's getting revenge on Kitty & Walter (?). (hide spoiler)]

I'm halfway through.
On the spoilered questions above, I find the motivation obscure too: revenge is suggested in the text, but I don't understand how that works. And what with her next adventures, I tend to feel the book is stringing together 'scenes from the underworld' with less and less realism. I enjoyed Nan and Kitty well enough, but it's become more pulpy.

Bryn wrote: "I'm halfway through.
On the spoilered questions above, I find the motivation obscure too: revenge is suggested in the text, but I don't understand how that works. And what with her next adventures..."

I can't decide, but I'm leaning toward your opinion Bryn. Being a lesbian in Victorian England would've been enough to skew anyone's reactions (the larger culture was so hostile), but for the first quarter of the book, Nan seems quite well adjusted given the situation.

I don't have any trouble believing that she would (view spoiler)[withdraw from the world as she did at first, falling into a deep lethargy and depression after Kitty made her choice to marry Walter (hide spoiler)], but I'm having trouble with the speed of her decline after that. Something would've had to come inbetween the depressive phase and (view spoiler)[her extremely risky, self-destructive behavior as a rent boy. I find it unlikely that this basically ordinary, romantic Oyster Girl would do that, not without some other downward rungs on the ladder first.

She says she did it at one point because she wanted to become a "creature beyond passion." I guess that means after being hurt so badly by Kitty she wanted to dull herself to feeling so it could never happen again? (hide spoiler)] But would Nan actually do those things? It seems questionable to me. And as you say Bryn, rather pulpy.

I still like the book, but I liked part 1 better than part 2. I'm on chapter 14 now.

What I found, Greg -- interested whether others feel the same -- is that yes, as a girl before she met the subcultures, she is well-adjusted; but the subcultures are presented quite negatively. I felt this with the renter stage, and with the stage after that -- a horrible subculture. I can't help but think it a pity to portray gay life in the 1890s by these... stereotyped... subcultures.

So, I definitely liked the Kitty era the best.

Bryn wrote: "What I found, Greg -- interested whether others feel the same -- is that yes, as a girl before she met the subcultures, she is well-adjusted; but the subcultures are presented quite negatively. I f..."

Yes, definitely Bryn. To me, it makes sense the (view spoiler)[rent boy scene (hide spoiler)] would be seedy though, given how much pressure there is from the larger culture combined with the vulnerable position they occupy. But I was put off a bit at how spiteful (view spoiler)[the Cavendish Ladies' Club scene and Diana (hide spoiler)] are portrayed. There seems little if anything positive in her portrayal of them.

Does it seem plausible to you though, Nan's sudden (view spoiler)[taking up the life of a rent boy when she has plenty of money at the time (hide spoiler)]? I can't decide.

Greg, I lost a sense of plausibility with that episode, and didn't recover it. I notice there was no mention how she felt (view spoiler)[ about her sexual services, given that she's not attracted to men. Why was it so easy for her? (hide spoiler)]

Bryn wrote: "Greg, I lost a sense of plausibility with that episode, and didn't recover it. I notice there was no mention how she felt [spoilers removed]"

I definitely agree with your spoiler - that bothered me too. For a hardened person with few options, I can see it; for Nan, it just doesn't feel right.

It's harder too because I really came to care for and like Nan & Kitty in the first part. Their characters were so well drawn there. I felt for them, felt like I understood them.

I was spoilered before reading the book, so I went in not liking Kitty much, and was both sad and glad that they (view spoiler)[broke up (hide spoiler)]. I also didn't find the later parts too jarring, and I really like Nan's (view spoiler)[relationship with Florence (hide spoiler)].

My pace moved to a slow motion when Diana was introduced. Even though Waters' language is still simple yet beautiful, I feel I've read about their relationship so many times before.

Greg wrote: "The pace is great Raul! I haven't had huge amounts of time for reading the past few days, but I just don't want to put it down.

This took quite a dark turn though! The developments are sad but no..."

I'm about to begin Chapter 3 and I'm just here like "Everything is going so well!......TOO well...." I love the book so far and I want Kitty & Nan to have the best happily ever after

Kellinova wrote: "I love the book so far and I want Kitty & Nan to have the best happily ever after ..."

That's exactly how I felt in the first part of the book Kellinova! :)

Alex wrote: "I was spoilered before reading the book, so I went in not liking Kitty much, and was both sad and glad that they [spoilers removed]. I also didn't find the later parts too jarring, and I really lik..."

Alex, in your second spoiler, I liked that part (and that character) a lot too. I just finished the second part, and (view spoiler)[Florence hasn't been in it very much yet - I hope she comes back now that Nan finally left Diana's house (hide spoiler)]!

Raul wrote: "My pace moved to a slow motion when Diana was introduced. Even though Waters' language is still simple yet beautiful, I feel I've read about their relationship so many times before."

I agree Raul

Just finished! 3.5 ★. The main strength of the book is the quality of the writing itself, so beautifully vivid and yet wonderfully controlled, but the story itself felt a bit uneven to me. My favorite parts of the book were part 1 and the last few pages.

I love the quirky description of Nancy's family life in part 1, her seeing Kitty for the first time, and the claustrophopic burgeoning of their relationship. It feels very much like it could happen that way in Victorian times. Also fairly fascinating this Victorian underground of cheap theaters, mashers, etc.

The writing was no less beautiful in part 2, but some of the character behavior felt a bit off to me. I have no doubt Waters' research of Victorian gay girls and rent boys was accurate, but I found it hard to believe that the Nancy of part 1 would behave exactly as she did for the motivations Waters' describes.

Then in the final part, the book started to feel a bit more grounded again. I wonder if there really were places such as the Boy in the Boat? I suppose so, since I trust Waters' research. That in itself is fairly fascinating. I wonder though if everything could've been quite as open as it was described though, with gay and lesbian acts still criminalized? I have no trouble believing in the pockets of freedom for rich women like Diana, but I'm not sure that (view spoiler)[regular women like Flo and Nancy could afford to kiss so openly (hide spoiler)] as they do in public at the end. I loved the sentiment of the ending, (view spoiler)[with Nancy choosing the real Flo over her hopeless half-fantasy with Kitty (hide spoiler)], though the openness of (view spoiler)[that final public kiss with Flo (hide spoiler)] felt a bit more like modern times than Victorian times to me.

Great that you're done Greg! Being busy with school this week has made me not read it as much as I wanted but I'm close enough to finishing it.

my reading is slower this month so i FINALLY just finished Part 1 and i just- *ugly crying*

(ok but im also so over Waters forshadowing at the end of every section. I get it, you're gonna beeak my heart by the end now stop rubbing it in!)

Kellinova wrote: "my reading is slower this month so i FINALLY just finished Part 1 and i just- *ugly crying*

(ok but im also so over Waters forshadowing at the end of every section. I get it, you're gonna beeak m..."

Part 1 was my favorite part Kellinova - I felt deeply for Nan and Kitty! And I know what you mean about the foreshadowing. :)

Raul wrote: "Great that you're done Greg! Being busy with school this week has made me not read it as much as I wanted but I'm close enough to finishing it."

Hope everything for school went well Raul!

What is your major? Possibly literature based on your reading. :) Or maybe you're mixed like me. My first degree was in Electrical Engineering, but I've always enjoyed literature.

@ Greg

Wow at you having done electrical engineering! I major in Finance, in my final year actually but just like you I love reading literature. I think I might do a literature degree at some point as well because I love it way more than Finance, not that I don't love it, just that I love literature much more.

Done reading the book and I loved it. I struggled with giving it stars, sometimes I think it pointless to put into stars the feeling books stir in you but finally gave it three. That however does not mean that I didn't appreciate it, contrary to that, Waters' language was rather beautiful and the highs in the book were rather splendid, but there were areas of the book I found a little too predictable and hence was rather put off but all in all, a good book by a more than gifted writer whom I hope to read more of!

Raul wrote: "My pace moved to a slow motion when Diana was introduced. Even though Waters' language is still simple yet beautiful, I feel I've read about their relationship so many times before."

I just met Diana and I'm dreading where this is headed. My heart breaks for Nan and how naïve she is. Did their relationship end up being as predictable as I am imagining it will be?

@ Kellinova.

Their relationship is quite predictable but do stick with it even though some parts get hard to read, Waters makes up for it soon :).

Raul wrote: "Done reading the book and I loved it. I struggled with giving it stars, sometimes I think it pointless to put into stars the feeling books stir in you but finally gave it three. That however does n..."

I felt exactly the same way Raul! I hate only having 5 choices for stars - sometimes there's no way to express how I feel about a book with so few choices. Sarah Waters is a beautiful writer, and despite the fact that I think Tipping the Velvet has some flaws, it's an impressive debut book. Part 1 of the book was especially wonderful!

Kellinova wrote: "just met Diana and I'm dreading where this is headed. My heart breaks for Nan and how naïve she is. Did their relationship end up being as predictable as I am imagining it will be? "
..."

My heart broke for Nan at that point too Kellinova!

Raul wrote: "Done reading the book and I loved it. I struggled with giving it stars, sometimes I think it pointless to put into stars the feeling books stir in you but finally gave it three. That however does n..."

I always struggle giving books stars as well. I totally agree that the book was predictable and what you said earlier about Part II with Diana slowing the pace because it wasn't as interesting. Overall, though, the writing was beautiful and I really enjoyed the book. I'm a bit dyslexic so this book in particular was challenging for me and at times frustrating to get through because of my reading issues. I think it was some of the sentence structures and the language used at times that tripped me up. I really appreciated the challenge and the ending definitely made it worth the struggle.

I can't wait to watch the miniseries now! Have y'all seen it yet? My friend and I have been comparing what I've read in the book and what she saw in the miniseries. It sounds like they really tried to keep the series as close to the book as possible.

I haven't seen the miniseries yet Kellinova, but I definitely want to!!

I finally finished the book today. I also am not sure how many stars I will give this book. I put it aside after about chapter 4, to read an avalanche of new library books, that I had to get back immediately, and RL book club books. I loved how well written the book is, but that denseness was also off-putting.

I requested the mini-series when I requested the book. I look forward to it.

I read this book many years ago and I fell in love with it. It was my first lesbian novel. I loved it so much that I ended up reading every other book Sarah Waters wrote. Just started re-reading The Night Watch.

Tabitha wrote: "I read this book many years ago and I fell in love with it. It was my first lesbian novel. I loved it so much that I ended up reading every other book Sarah Waters wrote. Just started re-reading Th..."

What did you think of The Night Watch Tabitha? Several of my friends loved that one. I'm not sure which of Waters' books I might try next. Tipping the Velvet was my first of hers.

This has been on my to-read list for a while and I just finished it whilst on vacation here. Really enjoyed all the comments on this thread. I found they mirrored many of my own reactions to the story. Here's my review though it adds nothing to the discussion above.

Wonderful writing, great historical research, likeable aspects diminish after (view spoiler)[ the relationship between Nan and Kitty falls apart. (hide spoiler)]