Catholic Thought discussion

Came across this review of the book that gives a good overview if you're interested...

http://americamagazine.org/issue/top-...

Site to read the document for free that is not a pdf!

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2016/04...

Susie wrote: "Came across this review of the book that gives a good overview if you're interested...

http://americamagazine.org/issue/top-..."

Susie, thanks for posting that link. After reading the article, it appears that "Mercy" is one of the key themes in "The Joy of Love".

Below is a link to an online study guide for "The Joy of Love".

http://ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-...

Susan Margaret wrote: "Below is a link to an online study guide for "The Joy of Love".

http://ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-..."

Thank you Susan for the online study!

Mercy as you point out above is indeed a major thread of the first chapter and may be important further on. This seems to be connected with the Jubilee Year of Mercy we are in now. The most telling reference by Pope Francis is comparing the Holy Family’s “nightmares, as when they met with Herod’s implacable violence” to “refugee families who in our day feel rejected and helpless.”

I am somewhat closely connected to what goes on in the minds of Central European people who are on the whole Roman Catholic and the threat, as they see it, of an Islamic invasion which historically was and is a fearful issue. The situation is larger and more complicated than showing mercy to refugee families. It’s the 70 percent of young men who follow the women with children.

Galicius wrote: "I am somewhat closely connected to what goes on in the minds of Central European people who are on the whole Roman Catholic and the threat, as they see it, of an Islamic invasion which historically was and is a fearful issue. The situation is larger and more complicated than showing mercy to refugee families. It’s the 70 percent of young men who follow the women with children. ..."

That's true of course Galicius, and it's impossible not to have sympathy for all of their very legitimate fears. It's entirely reasonable and human and shouldn't be discounted at all.

I did have an amazing experience today though that I want to talk about. Before this morning, I hadn't attended Catholic church other than when visiting my parents in several years. But I was so moved by Pope Francis' book, The Church of Mercy, that something called me to look up the Catholic churches in my area last night. So this morning I went to the 7:00 am services at a Catholic church nearby; that way I could go to it in addition to my other church. I very much felt the Holy Spirit throughout the mass; I hadn't realized how much I'd missed kneeling in church and especially the kneeling time of quiet prayer among other parishioners following communion. Anyway, at the end of church, the priest announced that there was a special talk about the year of mercy at 11:30. I felt this couldn't possibly be a coincidence; so I attended. It felt like a nudge from God.

Long lead-in, but it gives you an idea of my mind set going into the talk. The priest's talk that was so beautiful - it moved me deeply. One thing from the talk was a long meditation on the parable of the Good Samaritan.

And finally I get to my point. One thing he shared in that meditation on the parable was a quote from Martin Luther King about it. I don't remember the exact words, but it was something like this: the priest and Levite in the parable who passed by the beaten man were thinking of what would happen to themselves if they stopped to help. The good Samaritan on the other hand was thinking of what would happen to the beaten man if he didn't stop to help. Of course it was altogether possible that the beaten man might have been faking and might have robbed or killed the Good Samaritan, but the Good Samaritan stopped and was a blessing to that man.

None of this changes the reality of all the real fears in the world, terrible things that can happen. It's just another way of looking at things that touched me. I have no idea if what I'm saying makes any sense, but it's been on my heart since the talk.

Greg, thank you for sharing that. I had not heard Martin Luther King's interpretation of the Good Samaritan parable. What you have said makes sense and it sounds like you had a very special day.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Greg, thank you for sharing that. I had not heard Martin Luther King's interpretation of the Good Samaritan parable. What you have said makes sense and it sounds like you had a very special day."

Thanks Susan Margaret, it was definitely special, and I intend to go back next Sunday :)

Greg wrote: "Galicius wrote: "I am somewhat closely connected to what goes on in the minds of Central European people who are on the whole Roman Catholic and the threat, as they see it, of an Islamic invasion w..."

That’s a wonderful and heart-warming story Greg. I think you should consider yourself lucky to have a church nearby that has provided you the opportunity to have such an awakening spiritual experience but it wasn’t the church or the priest, it had to come from you.

I looked up the part of King’s speech on the Good Samaritan parable. It was in his “I’ve been to the mountaintop” speech, the day before his death. You do give us the kernel of the story:

“first question that the Levite asked was, ‘If I stop to help this man, what will happen to me?’ But then the Good Samaritan came by, and he reversed the question: ‘If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him?’ "

Galicius wrote: "Greg wrote: "Galicius wrote: "I am somewhat closely connected to what goes on in the minds of Central European people who are on the whole Roman Catholic and the threat, as they see it, of an Islam..."

Thanks Galicius, and thanks also for tracking down the quote!

That is a wonderful story about going to Church Greg...sounds like you heeded the call!

Susie wrote: "That is a wonderful story about going to Church Greg...sounds like you heeded the call!"

I definitely feel like that Susie! I've been praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and so many interrelated things have been happening lately. It was an amazing experience - I'm going to be very tired getting up for 7 services on Sundays, but it'll be worth it. :) At this particular church, half the services are in Spanish; for English services it's only 7 or 10:30. But I loved the church so much - I want to keep going!

I just started reading, and I understand we'll start discussing next Wednesday, but I have a general question. I remember only fuzzily when this conference came up in the news. Is this book the compiled findings of that conference?

It does read like a committee document with all the numbered clauses. Just curious about the general background of the book if anyone knows - I was thinking some background might help me understand better as I read it.

My copy only has the document itself, no introduction. Maybe the PDF links that were posted earlier have more? - I'll check after work.

Nevermind, I see that the study guide link that Susan Margaret posted answers my question. Thanks Susan!

And now my lunch hour is over; so back to work! :)

Greg wrote: "I just started reading, and I understand we'll start discussing next Wednesday, but I have a general question. I remember only fuzzily when this conference came up in the news. Is this book the com..."

The way I understand it, it is the Pope's response to the synods on the family. Now that you mention it, I have no idea if there are separate documents/compilations of the conferences themselves. I would think so.
Does anyone know more?

The format is the same as all papal documents. They are always numbered like this. How they came to be like this I don't know.

Kerstin wrote: "The format is the same as all papal documents. They are always numbered like this. How they came to be like this I don't know. ..."

Thanks Kerstin! I had no idea because I've never read one before. :)

The Church of Mercy probably didn't have the numbers because it wasn't an official papal document but instead a transcription of some of Pope Francis' sermons and addresses (?).

Greg wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "The format is the same as all papal documents. They are always numbered like this. How they came to be like this I don't know. ..."

Thanks Kerstin! I had no idea because I've never..."

You're welcome, Greg :)
I've read a few of these papal documents, and they were all in the same format. I must say, all of them were very insightful, and I am now at a point where I not only want to include more of them into my reading, but make sure I will read all that are published in the future.

A priest once told me that many of these papal documents, especially encyclicals, are addressed to all mankind (Amoris Laetitia is an exhortation, and I don't know in which way these differ). The word 'catholic' is not used very often in them. I thought this rather interesting, and it underscores the Church's primary mission to bring Christ to all people.

Kerstin wrote: "I must say, all of them were very insightful, and I am now at a point where I not only want to include more of them into my reading, but make sure I will read all that are published in the future. ..."

Maybe after this one, you can post a recommendation of some others you particularly liked? I'd like to read more too!

I have my eyes on Evangelii Gaudium: The Joy of the Gospel also - the priest at church last week mentioned that one. :)

Greg wrote: "Maybe after this one, you can post a recommendation of some others you particularly liked? I'd like to read more too!"

I think this is a good idea in general. We should on fairly regular basis read papal documents together, or even some of the prominent documents of Vatican II. One thing is for sure, given the extraordinary wealth of catholic writings over two millennia we will never run out of titles to recommend. The papal documents however, especially the recent ones over the past decades, address in a specific way our current culture, and we benefit immensely from the insights they have to offer.

I also like the idea of reading church documents regularly, but most of the ones I've tried to read were a lot harder to read than Pope Francis' writings are, and I would want to take them a lot slower.

I tried to read Redemptoris Mater (one of JPII's encyclicals) for Lent a few years ago, and I kept having to backtrack. I had to reread a lot of long sentences because I was having trouble understanding them, and then reread the last couple of numbered sections to understand what they meant together. I found it to be very dense and difficult reading. (But well worth the effort.)

I got to section 26 of 52 because I kept having to go back and reread several sections to understand what was intended. It's been a little while, though, so I'd love to go back and try reading Redemptoris Mater again.

(Hi, BTW. I'm Shannon. I'm new.)

Welcome to our group Shannon!!!!

I would like to get a bit into the reading. Pope Francis writes right at the beginning of the Introduction: “the desire to marry and form a family remains vibrant, especially among your people, and this is an inspiration to the Church”.

I am a third of the way into the book and am looking for information where this is happening. Should I assume in Africa which I am told has the fastest growth in the Church? We do travel a bit in the states over the last few years. We do see more young people attending Sunday mass in the Southwest. There is much less of that in the Northeast. The younger people we know here are into their late twenties and older with no thought of marriage. We have bemoaned the situation in these pages of young people who get higher education and end their interest in religion. Europe is experiencing decrease of population in all the major countries of Western Europe especially. We certainly cannot count on the Islamic migration to make up the difference, become “vibrant” part of the church family. It’s not what their imams in the mosques teach them.

You bring up a good question Galicius. I live on the west coast and it does seem that many young people have delayed marriage and a family. In fact I do not see many young people at mass in our parish, nor are there many who attend the youth mass.

At my parents' Catholic church in Arizona, I'm happy to say that there are a very large number of young churchgoers and many of them bring babies or young children to mass. They live in a growing area I think.

In California the past couple weeks, I've seen few, but I suspect that's because I've been going to 7 am services - it's fairly sparsely attended. By contrast, I peeked in at the end of 10:30 mass when I was looking for the mercy lecture, and it looked like there wasn't a single seat left in the pews! I didn't notice much about the ages because I quickly realized the lecture must not be in the church sanctuary and went across the way.

Greg wrote: "At my parents' Catholic church in Arizona, I'm happy to say that there are a very large number of young churchgoers and many of them bring babies or young children to mass. They live in a growing a..."

Greg, Did you enjoy the lecture? I live in southern California. Are you south, central, or northern?

Susan Margaret wrote: "Greg, Did you enjoy the lecture? I live in southern California. Are you south, central, or northern?..."

I live in Southern California too Susan, Long Beach actually. The lecture was just wonderful (held at St Matthew's) - so moving and inspiring! :)

I want to add a bit about large church attendance we’ve seen recently. Earlier this month we had a First Communion at St. Joseph Church, Austintown OH for a young cousin. There were at least 350 present in the congregation to a rather small group of 11 girls and 8 boys receiving their first communion. That’s good showing and support by family and friends for the youngsters.

We counted approximately 400 in attendance at Sunday 10AM mass at Blessed Sacrament Church, San Antonio, TX, last month. Our Lady of the Valley in Green Valley, AZ was full at about 450 during similar mass, earlier in April. There was good mixture of ages with children and young people present at both churches.

San Xavier del Bac Mission is understandably small but it was full on Sunday 11:00AM. This included tourists like us.

We were awed by the grandeur and participation at a high mass in Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah, GA, a couple of years ago in March.

My diocese is also experiencing a decline in church participation, particularly among the folks under 50 years of age. But, I have friends with adult children who have moved to other states. When they visit, they find parishes busting out of the seams with large amounts of young families present. I have heard this from the western side of Ohio, from Idaho, from other growing mid-western communities.

Galicius, my father, who passed away about a year ago, and aunt lived in Tucson. For many years we visited them every Easter and we would attend mass at San Xavier del Bac Mission. After mass we would sit outside on the rocks and eat the the food sold by the vendors that had their booths lined up outside the church. In fact, I just returned from Tucson about a week and half ago. I was visiting my aunt.

Greg we are close, I live in Brea.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Galicius, my father, who passed away about a year ago, and aunt lived in Tucson. For many years we visited them every Easter and we would attend mass at San Xavier del Bac Mission. After mass we wo..."

That’s a second coincidence in our travels, after Mt. Rainier. Sorry to hear about your loss. We visited the San Xavier Mission on Sunday, April 17th. We sampled the vendors outside and then climbed to the cross on top of the rocks. On the day before we visited the ruins of the Tumacacori mission. We have friends in Green Valley, AZ, a classmate going back to grade school; they entertained us and showed us around. They explained why the mission has an unfinished steeple. It was our second visit to Arizona. (I don't know how to post photos here so I put some on my profile.)

Susan and Galicius, another coincidence - I got my first degree at the University of Arizona in Tuscon. I remember it as a lovely place, though of course that was going on twenty yeaes ago.

I will have to visit the San Xavier Mission next time I'm down in those parts. My parents live in Scottsdale, but Tuscon isn't that far; given that I've already driven 7-8 hours to get to Scottsdale, Tuscon is not so much further. I'd love to see the University campus someday again too - so many fond memories of Tuscon!

What were your feelings after reading the Introduction? I made note of chapters that will probably interest me more than others: Four and Five “for married couples”. I am curious about the “challenge” of Chapter Eight. I liked Pope Francis’ acknowledgment that “not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issued need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium”. I think we’ve seen that since the Second Vatican Council which gave different regions and countries leeway to suit their cultures, beginning of course with the abandonment of the Latin Mass to local tongues. There are sometimes surprising differences in ceremonies and observances as you may have seen abroad. Some church holy days are observed in one country and not here and vice versa.

I agree. It is nice to see an emphasis on local discernment at the beginning of this text. Francis seems to understand that unity does not mean uniformity.

I agree too.

I also like that he understands that everyone is not instantly sanctified, that it's a process; I think keeping that in mind makes it easier to be a bit gentler with other people, especially people that might not yet be in a place to understand fully: "the Spirit guides us towards the entire truth, until he leads us fully into the mystery of Christ and enables us to see all things as he does." Also, this gives me hope for myself. :)

I completely agree

Everyone seems to be really eager to discuss our book, so I have posted the discussion section for the Intro, and Chapters 1 & 2 a day early.

Greg, thank you for posting the Pope's comment about the Spirit guiding us to the truth. I believe that is exactly what is happening for me and my family at this time. The Pope's views on families and particularly on marriage are opening a door for me personally in the Church. I hope that the themes in this book will be a blessing for so many people.

Kristen wrote: "Greg, thank you for posting the Pope's comment about the Spirit guiding us to the truth. I believe that is exactly what is happening for me and my family at this time. The Pope's views on families ..."

I feel the same way Kristen. I only recently went back to attending Catholic mass weekly, and it's largely because of reading Francis' The Church of Mercy.

He has a way of putting things that makes me feel welcome even though I'm far from sanctified. His words challenge me to open myself up as much as possible to the nudges of the Holy Spirit ... to be willing to be changed by that Spirit, even though there may be limitations in what is possible for me and even though there's much I struggle with.

Perhaps these limitations are in some senses a gift really in that they prevent me from being complacent? I don't know. But I know that I sat on the roadside discouraged in my walk with the Lord for too long. As the Pope said in The Church of Mercy, "Never give way to discouragement! Ours is not a joy born of having many possessions, but of having encountered a Person: Jesus, in our midst."