The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Emma
Jane Austen Collection
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Emma - Vol 1, Ch X - Vol 2, Ch I
Great quote. Again plenty of them in these chapters. I liked this one too: "This had just taken place and with great cordiality, when John Knightley made his appearance, and "How d'ye do, George?" and "John, how are you?" succeeded in the true English style, burying under a calmness that seemed all but indifference, the real attachment which would have lead either of them, if requisite, to do every thing for the good of the other". :0)I wouldn't say Emma is a feminist character/novel as such. People with money and social status had some measure of extra freedom. Emma is in an advantageous position to say the least, which allows her not to seek for a husband. She doesn't need one to survive and she already has 'control' of her home, and this to a degree she might not have with a husband. And she is aware of this. The only thing that would change her mind would be love...
Very much enjoying it all. I particularly liked how Emma took the function of 'diplomat' in the family, directing conversations to safer topics not to let tempers explode. Also chapter XVI with Emma thinking it all over - I cannot remember whether Austen did this in her other novels to such extent but this seems like a stream of consciousness.
Mod
Rose wrote: "Can we talk about Emma as a feminist character/novel?."We certainly can. (And we also may. Sorry, but that's automatic when you're trying to teach grandchildren the distinction!)
But it's one thing to lay a modern feminist outlook onto the novel, which of course is easy to do, and entirely another to imply that Austen had such ideas in her mind when she wrote.
Rosemarie wrote: "Emma is so certain that she is never going to fall in love--never is an awfully long time."You know when a character says something like that that the time will come when she will have to eat those words.
Mod
After listening to conversations between Isabella and her father about health- related issues I realized that Emma has good points, as long as she doesn't try to manage other people's lives. It requires a lot of patience to listen to such a silly conversation about minor health issues and gruel.
Mod
There are lots of great elements in this section -
Chapter X - Emma's fiddling with her boot string and eventually breaking it as an excuse to push Harriet & Mr Elton together has an almost farcical quality. She is frustrated that he is not progressing further along her planned track and thinks "There are people, who the more you do for them, the less they will do for themselves" - a phrase usually said to put the blame on someone else.
Chapter XI - It turns out that Isabella not only takes after her father in being a hypochondriac but she has married someone like him. Not that John Knightley cares about illness, but he has the same self-centeredness and dislike of society. Isabella was raised to cater to her father and now caters to her husband. But Emma "was quick in feeling the little injuries to Isabella, which Isabella never felt herself".
We can all relate to the stress of a family reunion where we know some people may clash - "there was all the pain of apprehension frequently to be endured, though the offence came not"
Chapter XII - Emma's rationalization of how to make up with Mr. Knightley while being positive she is right - she has really learned nothing at this point. Also the way Mr Woodhouse brings everything back to health concerns but he and Isabella argue the views of their own medical idols, while Mr John Knightley baits them, and Emma and Mr. Knightley valiantly try to find other topics of conversation.
Chapter XIV - In spite of Emma's professed views on marriage, we learn her secret dream of Frank Churchill, whom she has never seen. It reminds me of The Importance of Being Earnest (which of course was written later) where a young woman decides early in life she will only marry a man with a certain first name.
The Great Snow Apocalypse - At the news of snow, all sorts of dire scenarios arise, such as carriages overturning, Isabella tromping through snow in her party slippers to reach her children. Mr. John Knightley is gleeful in his "I told you so" attitude that no on should have left home on such a night. And Mr Woodhouse only turns to Emma and pleads "What is to be done?" It takes the sensible John Knightley to actually check outside and see that the snow is practically nonexistent.
Chapter XVI - Emma's reaction to the avowal by Mr Elton is an example of the interior monologue that has been mentioned
"- Such a development of everything most unwelcome! - Such a blow for Harriet" But is Emma really that concerned about Harriet?
And then there is the snob factor, it was one thing for Harriet to aspire to the level of Mr Elton but how dare he aspire to Miss Woodhouse? "the Eltons were nobody". Emma sees it was her fault and resolves not to meddle again - for about 1 minute.
XVII - Emma thinks she should be more like Harriet but "It was rather too late int he day to set about being simple-minded and ignorant"
So many great comments and thoughts. I can agree that Emma at times seems level headed and intelligent and other time shows her immaturity and lack of knowledge; but this is normal for a girl her age then and now. She is in a position of 'power' in that she does not need to marry so her interfering in other people's chances is not only foolish but unkind. I don't think she means to be so but nevertheless it is. She appears to play favourites; Harriet is her friend therefore worthy of Mr Elton, he is not her particular friend therefore not worthy of her. It is all a bit condescending. Mr. Woodhouse is an attention seeker and needs a constant supply of concern from others. I would find this very tiring so Emma seems to have patience for those she cares for.
Is she a feminist? Was Jane Austen? Not in the modern understanding I don't think but definitely there is a portrayal of those fortunate to be financially secure having choices and marriage not being top of the list. There is no opportunity for a woman to earn her own riches unless through marriage or inherited.
Rosemarie wrote: "It requires a lot of patience to listen to such a silly conversation about minor health issues and gruel..."It is trying, isn't it, and funny too. How far will they go? I wonder how Mr Woodhouse started his imaginary ailments although it sounds like he was always like that.
Robin wrote:"The Great Snow Apocalypse"
Brilliant!
In chapter xvii: "poor Isabella, passing her life with those she doted on, full of their merits, blind to their faults, and always innocently busy might have been the model of right feminine happiness."Is Jane suggesting Isabella has the best of life as a woman? Or that Isabella is society's view of a 'model' woman?
After Emma tells Harriet about Mr. Elton she feels:
"that Harriet was the superior creature of the two-and that to resemble her would be more for her welfare and happiness than all that genius or intelligence could do."
And that she would be, "repressing imagination all the rest of her life."
Emma is aware that she has behaved badly and is contrite at this point and desirous of change. How long will this last?
Chapter xviii: Mr. Knightley's assertions about Frank Churchill:
"It is a great deal more natural than one could wish, that a young man, brought up by those who are proud, luxurious, and selfish, should be proud, luxurious and selfish too. If Frank Churchill had wanted to see his father he would have contrived it."
Emma counters later with; "He may have as strong a sense of what would be right as you can have, without being so equal under particular circumstances, to act up to it."
Mr. Knightley: "Then it would not be so strong a sense. If it failed to produce equal exertion, it could not be an equal conviction."
Mr. Knightley goes on to say that Frank ought to have developed the ability to follow through on duty by now and that he can choose to leave the home of his aunt and uncle to visit places for mere pleasure, so why not his father?
Emma seems to have placed Frank on a pedestal whilst Mr. Knightley believes that Frank is a self-centered pleasure seeking young man.
I am looking forward to meeting Frank. I am siding with Mr. Knightley at this point,although Emma is correct when she says it is wrong to judge a person until one knows more about their circumstances and reasons.
Vol 2: Chapter 1; Emma feels some inclination from her own heart to visit with Mrs. and Miss Bates but then thinks of visiting them as 'a waste of time' and the women as being 'tiresome women.' Also the 'danger of falling in with third or second rate' members of the community who do visit them.
So it seems Emma has good promptings at heart but currently selfishness and prejudice to overcome if she would do the good her heart speaks of.
Did Jane herself have these thoughts? She must have had to do visiting to the poor and needy in her father's parish/flock.
Mod
To which he replies:
Indeed!...Then, my dear Isabella, it is the most extraordinary sort of thing in the world, for in general every thing does give you a cold.
Emma finally gets to know the true Mr. Elton. I wonder if she will ever realize that she may have ruined Harriet's chances by making her refuse Martin?
Mod
Enter Mr. Churchill-- not in person, of course, but we certainly do hear a lot about him, mostly negative from Mr. Knightly, mostly imaginative from Emma.
Who is correct?
Mod
She did not visit the Bates as often as she should because
...of its being very disagreeable, -a waste of time-tiresome women-and all the horror of being in danger of falling in with the second rate and third rate of Highbury, who were calling on them for ever, and therefore she seldom went near them.
She feels this way but spends a great deal of time with Harriet, someone's "natural daughter".
Yeah, but Harriet flatters her and Miss Bates bores her to death.
Mod
I'm not sure if that quote can be considered feminist. Emma isn't saying that all women should be able to swear off marriage, only women in her financial situation. But it's pretty modern got her to be able to decide her own future.
Amy wrote: "...But it's pretty modern got her to be able to decide her own future. ..."You know, I am often uncertain enough of history and particularly what has been repressed of women's attitudes, thoughts, and feelings to be sure about these things. Women's ways of getting what they wanted may have been more devious, or at least differently devious, but I somehow quell at perceiving them as without significant power to influence the world within their scope.
I kinda feel that it’s feminist enough of Jane Austen even to be writing realist fiction centered on the lives of women—not something that had a lot of precedent in her day.
I am finding the visit from John and Isabella quite interesting. The two brothers have quite a bit in common. Emma does not really like John Knightley and she notices his every flaw and especially dislikes him fining anything wrong with her sister Isabella.“He was not a great favourite with his fair sister-in-law. Nothing wrong in him escaped her. She was quick in feeling the little injuries to Isabella, which Isabella never felt herself.”
This is rather interesting because Mr. George Knightley will do the same to Emma. He does not overlook her flaws, but this Emma tolerates well. She does not give in, and she does not seem injured either. She is Mr. Knightley's equal and can stand up to him.
John Knightley seems to tolerate Mr. Woodhouse's idiosyncrasies less well than his brother, but then he has more at risk. He is married to a hypochondriac like Mr. Woodhouse, so it is no wonder he has to put his foot down on occasion.
Mr. Woodhouse idiosyncratic ideas of what is healthy almost causes a blowup and it falls to Emma and Mr. Knightley to keep the lid on the situation. They both tries to change the topic of conversation time after time. This is one time when Emma shines.
Fair point Brit that Emma does view the Knightley brothers differently. Maybe she is jealous of the fact that Isabella was taken away by John Knightley and holds a grudge against him? I think Jane was not opposed to marriage but believed if in a financial position to live without marriage one should not marry without there being love involved. She was engaged for a short time herself (a day?) and then called it off. I feel she was putting forward the point that women should not feel forced into marriage if they had other choices (not many other choices back then admittedly).
Re Mr Woodhouse's 'idiosyncracies': .....Those of you who have already read Emma may be interested in this piece which postulates that Mr Woodhouse is not just a tiresome old man and does not suffer from 'hypochondria' but from 'dementia' or 'cognitive impairment', which Austen treats with an understanding that caregivers today would appreciate (Spoilers):http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/...
So maybe Emma's problem was not with marriage itself but with the worry of who would marry a woman with a father who would require a great deal of care as he deteriorated in mental and physical health.
Madge wrote: "So maybe Emma's problem was not with marriage itself but with the worry of who would marry a woman with a father who would require a great deal of care as he deteriorated in mental and physical health. ..."I understand that logic, Madge, but I am not sure that Emma would have had such insight. I know I would not at her age, even though I certainly had to learn in my forties and fifties from family situations. I haven't noticed anything in the text that would suggest Emma had gained such understanding from the community about her.
It was still a time when multiple generations did often share a home. I can believe that the older, more sophisticated suitors of Emma might perceive the risk you suggest. I don't totally have a sense of how large the Woodhouse manor was, but we do have mention of a personal maid for Emma and at least a couple of additional servants. (I don't know that I have read a piece of literature that describes the care of the elderly and infirm within an English estate to any greater extent than we are experiencing here. Hmm...)
PS -- just read the article. It is excellent and I commend it to others. Thx for bringing it to our attention, Madge. (I had forgotten about the difficult Prince Nikolay Andrei[vi]tch Bolkonsky of War and Peace.)
Mod
Great perspective. I think it's very possible.
Mod
Since most of the nursing care was provided by the women in the household, I think it's very possible that this is a consideration.
This lady, who cares for her 'cognitively impaired' mother, calls Emma Jane Austen's guide to Alzheimer's and writes:'“Emma,” which was first published 200 years ago this month, is one huge paean to caregiving, depicting its hardships, demands and frustrations. Recognizing the challenges in Emma’s everyday life, I was no longer bothered by Emma; I felt my heart break for her.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/opi...
Madge wrote: "Re Mr Woodhouse's 'idiosyncracies': .....Those of you who have already read Emma may be interested in this piece which postulates that Mr Woodhouse is not just a tiresome old man and does not suffe..."The article you referenced is well worth reading. It could very well be that Austen is describing a person with dementia. It is in her relationship with her father that Emma shines. She seems to humor him whenever she can and at other time works really hard to keep the lid on so that Mr. Woodhouse and her brother-in-law does not totally fall out. I am thinking of the way Emma and Mr. (George) Knightley keeps steering the conversation to safe topics when Isabella and John come for Christmas.
Madge wrote: "Re Mr Woodhouse's 'idiosyncracies': .....Those of you who have already read Emma may be interested in this piece which postulates that Mr Woodhouse is not just a tiresome old man and does not suffe..."Thank you Madge for the two articles. Like many I never considered Mr Woodhouse's true state, seeing him more as a hypochondriac, but this different point of view does work too. Emma does shine when she is 'caring' for him. I shall keep this in mind from now on. I think Austen's narrator uses its ironical beam on Isabella, and her husband, but not as much on Mr Woodhouse. Going to have a look...
Madge wrote: "Re Mr Woodhouse's 'idiosyncracies': .....Those of you who have already read Emma may be interested in this piece which postulates that Mr Woodhouse is not just a tiresome old man and does not suffe..."Yes, I have to bite my tongue, I was only focusing on Mr. Woodhouse's hypochondria, and didn't notice his anxieties in general, and how safe he felt around his family. I have experienced these types of anxieties with my father before his death, and I now I completely understand Emma's behavior, and patience, with her father.
From the article, some wise words:
"There is something gentle and persuasive about a social world that did not rush into portmanteau diagnoses (like “Alzheimer’s”) with the horror that attends it now, but apparently treated a sufferer—at least a well-to-do courteous patriarch—as an individual, with the seriousness and the clever verbal evasiveness that would give him most comfort. ... Our culture has a lost a great deal through our dread of “dementia.” Over the past decades, this has contributed to making American ageism more panicky and cruel. We are damned by the fake tremors of “population aging,” and by the erosion of the cautious veneration that was once directed so unconsciously toward vulnerable old persons. We certainly burden our long lives with fear for ourselves growing older. And we may withhold from the afflicted the thoughtful but difficult consideration that should be their due."
After the Christmas Eve dinner, and Mr. Elton's rejected proposal, Austen quietly enters into Emma's thoughts, "The hair was curled, and the maid sent away, and Emma sat down to think and be miserable. -- It was a wretched business indeed! -- Such an overthrow of every thing she had been wishing for! -- Such a development of every thing most unwelcome! -- Such a blow for Harriet! -- that was the worst of all"Those are not Jane Austen thoughts, those are Emma's thoughts. Now we are going to be able to know Emma much more intimately.
Mod
Part of her role in running the household was hostessing. This steering of conversations you mention would be one of those responsibilities
Deborah wrote: "Brit wrote: "Madge wrote: "Re Mr Woodhouse's 'idiosyncracies': Part of her role in running the household was hostessing. This steering of conversations you mention would be one of those responsibilities.."
It may be part of her job as a hostess to steer the conversation, but in this case, chapter XII, she is mainly trying to steer the conversation away from topics that would cause distress to her father and the guests.
Isabella is telling her father about going to the sea and how beneficial this has been for the children. Mr. Woodhouse evidently abhors the sea, so we get this reaction from Emma:
“Come, come," cried Emma, feeling this to be an unsafe subject, "I must beg you not to talk of the sea.”
Then she suggests Isabella ask about the Perrys, one of their father's favorite. This works well until Mr. Woodhouse wants Mr. Perry to check on little Bella's throat. Emma has to jump in again and tells her sister to ask about the Bates.
Again, the conversation is rescued until Isabella and her father start discussing colds, influenza and the London air. There is no general agreement, and Isabella makes the statement that at least her husband looks well. Mr. Woodhouse disagrees, but John Knightley will have none of this, so Emma must again rescue the situation:
“I did not thoroughly understand what you were telling your brother," cried Emma, "about your friend Mr. Graham's intending to have a bailiff from Scotland, to look after his new estate. What will it answer? Will not the old prejudice be too strong?"
Emma succeeds, at least for a while, as we see from the next paragraph:
"And she talked in this way so long and successfully that, when forced to give her attention again to her father and sister, she had nothing worse to hear than Isabella's kind inquiry after Jane Fairfax”
So they have a civil and polite conversation for some time until Mr. Woodhouse picks up again on the topic of going to the sea, causing John Knightley to blow up.
“Emma's attempts to stop her father had been vain; and when he had reached such a point as this, she could not wonder at her brother-in-law's breaking out.
"Mr. Perry," said he, in a voice of very strong displeasure, "would do as well to keep his opinion till it is asked for. Why does he make it any business of his, to wonder at what I do?”
Here Mr. Knightley comes to Emma's rescue and steers the conversation with his brother:
“True, true," cried Mr. Knightley, with most ready interposition—"very true. That's a consideration indeed.—But John, as to what I was telling you of my idea...”
Jane Austen concludes the scene by
“Mr. Woodhouse was rather agitated by such harsh reflections on his friend Perry, to whom he had, in fact, though unconsciously, been attributing many of his own feelings and expressions;—but the soothing attentions of his daughters gradually removed the present evil, and the immediate alertness of one brother, and better recollections of the other, prevented any renewal of it.”
Mod
Part of her role in running the household was hostessing. This steering of conversations you mention would be one of..."
I must not have been clear. It's Emma's job as hostess to steer away from distressing topics. In this case, it would distress her father. She would also be expected to do the same for any other guest. It shows a strong proficiency in her ability to run the household.
There are a lot of insights into Jane Austen's life in this extract from Jane Austen the Parson's Daughter including mention of her worries about inheritances due to her mother and herself which would have prevented their having to leave th Parsonage upon her father's death, the announcement about which caused her to faint:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=P...
This extract from Jane Austen Among Women talks about the fear of pregnancy being a reason for women not to marry, if they could afford not to do so, both because of the health risks and the cost of the very large families which ensued because of the lack of birth control, the commonest form of which was abstinence although coitus interruptus was also tried (condoms were associated with 'vice'):
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w...
I think that underlying Emma's girlishness are real anxieties such as Austen and many other single women of that era faced. Given her age Emma copes very well with her problems, just as Jane did. I suspect that growing up in large families and having to take responsibility for many siblings, nephews and nieces etc might have made young women more mature than they are today.
It is only in recent years that the problems of caring for the elderly have come into prominence which may be why critics have not previously concentrated on this aspect of Emma. This extract from Crime, Abuse and the Elderly shows that neglect and abuse was a common practice in earlier times so perhaps Austen was indeed partly writing a treatise on how to care humanely for them, as the lady in my above link at #25 to The New York Times suggests.https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=c...
Madge wrote: "This extract from Jane Austen Among Women talks about the fear of pregnancy being a reason for women not to marry, if they could afford not to do so, both because of the health risks and the cost of the very large families which ensued because of the lack of birth control...I think that underlying Emma's girlishness are real anxieties such as Austen and many other single women of that era faced... "
The second article mentions the percentages of women (in Britain, I guess?) who were single in the 1700s and late 1800s as being around 25%, and that was considered high. I recently saw a CSPAN BookTV discussion where it was pointed out that in the United States today, 43% of the women are single. The difference between then and now, and us and Jane/Emma, is that it turns out this 43% population of single women actually choose this status because they are independent and free of the limitations women had to deal with in earlier times.
Robin wrote: ""- Such a development of everything most unwelcome! - Such a blow for Harriet" But is Emma really that concerned about Harriet?."That's an excellent question that makes us consider with some attention the relationship there. On the surface, I would say that Emma's real concern is her problem of breaking the news to Harriet and having to admit how terribly wrong she was. Her primary concern being for herself.
But has she developed true affection for Harriet? In one sense, Harriet serves primarily as an entertainment for Emma, and I think that's how it starts out. But it may be that Emma has developed a sincere fondness for Harriet, and is genuinely distressed at the pain Emma's misleading and false encouragement will bring her. This is the emotion I would expect from a sincere friendship.
For me, Austen walks that tightrope so precisely that I am unsure which of Emma's view of the relations is paramount (I do think that both aspects are there, but which one is dominant?) Austen has been so careful in building the relationship that I simply can't decide which is the more likely central emotion for Emma.
Tracey wrote: "Is she a feminist? Was Jane Austen? Not in the modern understanding I don't think but definitely there is a portrayal of those fortunate to be financially secure having choices and marriage not being top of the list. There is no opportunity for a woman to earn her own riches unless through marriage or inherited. ."Yes, there is such a portrayal, and a recognition of the reality of life in her time, but is there actual or implied criticism of it? Or is it simply fairly representing the environment and the lives she is writing about?
Suppose a reader is living 200 years in the future, when for at least a century people have developed a mental technique which allows them to fall instantly to sleep at will and get all the rest they need in only two hours a day. They read a novel in which the protagonist tosses and turns in bed for hours mulling over a dilemma. Will they think that the author is making a social comment on this person's mental aberration that they are not able to follow the simple life process that every other normal person can take? Or will they recognize that things were simply different then and the author is doing nothing more than reflecting the lifestyle of her day without even thinking that things might be much different in the future?
Mod
Veronique wrote: Like many I never considered Mr Woodhouse's true state, seeing him more as a hypochondriac, but this different point of view does work too. Emma does shine when she is 'caring' for him.."I'm not so sure about the dementia issue. I can see the argument for, but on the other hand Mr. Woodhouse is quite seriously and, I think, genuinely concerned for others. I don't recognize this as an aspect of dementia.
""Mrs. Bates, let me propose your venturing on one of these eggs. An egg boiled very soft is not unwholesome. Serle understands boiling an egg better than any body. I would not recommend an egg boiled by any body else; but you need not be afraid, they are very small, you see—one of our small eggs will not hurt you. " This is not, as I see it, a comment by a person with dementia, but of a person who has almost a health phobia but is deeply concerned about other people. He means well, I think, in the fullest sense of that word.
Or, later, to Isabella, "How long it is, how terribly long since you were here! And how tired you must be after your journey! You must go to bed early, my dear—and I recommend a little gruel to you before you go.—You and I will have a nice basin of gruel together. My dear Emma, suppose we all have a little gruel." He recognizes that it has been a long time since her last visit (which we learn is true because she went to the seashore instead of visiting Hartfield), he knows that she has just taken a journey and that journeys are tiresome, he is solicitous of her health and encourages her to join him, realizing that someone is more likely to do something if you are offering to do it with them. None of this seems to me to be the conduct of a person with dementia.
Mod
Everyman wrote: "..None of this seems to me to be the conduct of a person with dementia. ..."Well, I certainly saw such behavior in my gentleman of a husband in the early years of diagnosis, in fact, even virtually to the end of his life. On the other hand, for another close family relative, not blood related, who had early onset, such continued concern for others was far less present in this sometimes vicious disease.
I think the retention of empathy is very variable in dementia sufferers, depending on what parts of the brain are being affected. Sadly, it seems to be one of the first things going in my sweetie, but it was one of the last things to go in his mother.
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "..None of this seems to me to be the conduct of a person with dementia. ..."Well, I certainly saw such behavior in my gentleman of a husband in the early years of diagnosis, in f..."
On the other hand, my father often became much more empathetic and caring, it was as if the dementia sometimes provided a space where much of the anxiety and distrust that had been part of his disposition were forgotten for periods that allowed him to simply be in the here and now. At those times he was very loving and compassionate.
With age, certainly a person's idiosyncrasies can become more prominent. Also, there is more than one type of dementia and maybe Mr. Woodhouse has a different mental condition altogether, maybe just depression which can worsen with age as the body beginning to fail becomes something else for a depressed (melancholic) person to suffer agonies over. Sometimes a person can try to control as much as possible because the world becomes a very frightening uncontrollable place.
It seems to me that rather having developed hypochondria or depression, Mr Woodhouse has always been this way: near the start we're told that 'having been a valetudinarian all his life, without activity of mind or body, he was a much older man in ways than in years' - and since he can hardly have been much more than 60, perhaps dementia is less likely.Is he a real invalid or not? in Chap 2 Austen says 'his own stomach could bear nothing rich' but it's impossible to tell if this might indicate real illness. It's easy to forget how untreatable and undiagnosable many ailments were back then, so I think it's too easy to just dismiss him as a hypochondriac.
Whatever his complaint, his role in the book seems to be partly as a source of gentle comedy, but also to highlight how badly Emma is in need of a companion she can talk to on equal terms; and his passive nature does something to explain her bossiness and self-assurance. She's spent the last few years making the decisions and organising his social life.
Janice(JG) wrote: "Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "..None of this seems to me to be the conduct of a person with dementia. ..."Well, I certainly saw such behavior in my gentleman of a husband in the early years of di..."
Let me be clearer, if my initial phrasing was not. My husband continued to be a caring, gentle man throughout his life, despite the dementia (Alzheimers?) onset that plagued his last years. I believe that can be understood in my initial post @41, but may have gotten lost as replies occurred. I feel I must honor memories of him by being clear here if I was misunderstood earlier!
In terms of our story "Emma," I was trying to say that I did not view the continued kindly behaviors of Mr. Woodhouse to necessarily be inconsistent with dementia. I don't know if the critics are stretching in their interpretation (as sometimes happens to give new light to established classics), but I do think they brought a worthwhile perspective to examining the text and to considering a possible thought process of the author.
I have read Emma several times, but had not slowed down to really see Mr. Woodhouse before. This discussion has helped me see him in a new light and not as just a silly old man, so I have been reading the interaction with Mr. Woodhouse more closely. He has always been a worry wort and a hypochondriac and still is, but it seems dementia or early onset of dementia better explains his behavior and also the behavior of those around him. He repeats himself and constantly comes back to the same topics, he has problems remembering (riddle), etc. Those around him humor him, except his son in law, but they do not engage in deep conversations with him.
Mod
That's an excellent question that makes us consider ..."
Interesting. Ever think Emma might just be lonely so was happy to have Hattiet? She's the only woman in the house, not including servants, and relatively isolated.
Mod
Thankyou for that explanation Lily.Experts in many fields are looking more closely into the illnesses which might have affected our forbears and descriptions in literature are one of the areas of investigation, archeological remains are another. 'Depression' for instance is a catch-all word which we now know forms part of a number of mental disorders. So looking again at Mr Woodhouse's behaviour seem a reasonable form of inquiry now that we know so much more about mental illness.
Jane Austen's own prolonged illness and death have been the subject of much controversy:
https://sciencebasedwriting.wordpress...
Howver it is all speculation so perhaps we can agree with Austen herself when she wrote: 'Seldom, very seldom, does complete truth belong to any human disclosure; seldom can it happen that something is not a little disguised, or a little mistaken.'
This week's reading is about: Vol 1, Chapter X through Vol 2, Chapter I
Or, if you're using another version of the book: Chapters 10-19.
In chapter X, we see the quote:
"I have none of the usual inducements of women to marry. Were I to fall in love, indeed, it would be a different thing! ... without love, I am sure I should be a fool to change such a situation as mine. Fortune I do not want; employment I do not want; consequence I do not want ...
Never mind, Harriet, I shall not be a poor old maid; and it is poverty only which makes celibacy contemptible to a generous public! ... but a single woman, of good fortune, is always respectable, and may be as sensible and pleasant as any body else. And the distinction is not quite so much against the candour and common sense of the world as appears at first; for a very narrow income has a tendency to contract the mind, and sour the temper."
In a few paragraphs, Austen sums up some thoughts about poverty and the role of the woman in society, at her time.
Can we talk about Emma as a feminist character/novel?