Catholic Thought discussion

Question for chapter three, from the study guide, to help with your reading:

In paragraph 73, Pope Francis says that the Sacrament of Marriage is not a "thing or a power." Instead, he refers to it as a "gift" and a "sign". To what truths about God and the Church does this sign point?

I really like the following quote from Chapter three:

"The covenant of love and fidelity lived by the Holy Family of Nazareth illuminates the principle which gives shape to every family, and enables it better to face the vicissitudes of life and history. On this basis, every family, despite its weaknesses, can become a light in the darkness of the world."(paragraph 66)

When I think of Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, I wonder what it would have been like to live in that family. How wonderful it must have been. Granted their life must have been hard, but what a loving family it probably was. I like the idea of the family being a light in the darkness of the world.

I found this chapter hard on a personal level. I could understand it theoretically, but I have never lived this sacrament. Reading this chapter reminded me that there should be something qualitatively different between marriage in the secular sense and matrimony in the sacramental sense. But, I am not sure most people really view it differently. There are so many factors that could potentially derail a married couple. Although I think it is very good that we live in a cultural context that does not punish people for leaving an abusive relationship, that does not encourage a woman or man to stay with a spouse who harms them or the children, I think we have now created a society in which marriage need not be a lifelong commitment. There are many factors: pop psychology's promotion of self-actualization, the financial independence of each spouse, the removal of cultural sanctions and so much more. So, how do we enable young couples preparing for marriage to overcome the values of the ,larger culture and understand what it means to be in a sacramental union? How do we help couples to tap into the grace of the sacrament to be able to live a vocation that may only be possible through the grace of God? I think I have some idea of what marriage should be if it is to be a sign of God's love. But, never having grappled with the practical struggles of married life, I don't know how to make it a reality.

Thank you Irene, for taking the time to share your feelings and thoughts. I agree with probably everything you've said...
Here's my take with different words... ;)

Having never been married I have no experience with living this sacrament but believe in todays age marriage, in the traditional sense, is near impossible. The total blurring between the legal and religious reasons/ramifications/definitions of marriage has caused so much pain for so many, whether quilt over divorce, or the question of same sex marriage, seems much of the original intent(s) is just all messed up...
Irene you voiced this much better than I, but same gist...
I feel there is so much judgement of other peoples relationships by, yes, other people and that is just wrong.

I may have personal views that others don't agree with, and don't match up 100% with Church teaching, but those views are for me to live with and live by, not force ANYONE else to...
What comes for me at the Final Judgement is between me and God, not anyone else...

While saying that I believe many of the church teachings are wonderful guideposts for us to try to live by, but when those views end up being used against and to diminish other human beings, me no likey...I believe at that point we are breaking the Golden Rule... :)

Irene wrote: ".So, how do we enable young couples preparing for marriage to overcome the values of the ,larger culture and understand what it means to be in a sacramental union? .."


Like you Irene, I don't have a basis for really understanding this sacrament, but my cousin and her husband went through an extended pre-marital counseling through their church ... from what I saw, I think it actually helped them a lot. It was so practical, and I can see how respectful they are of each other - with their personalities, maybe they would've been that way anyway, but I think the extended preparation with involvement of the priest helped put them in a certain mindset. I think if they hadn't been suited for each other, they might've been more likely to realize it beforehand with the counseling too.

One of the things I am finding challenging in this chapter (challenging in a good way) is that Pope Francis seems to be moving the conversation away from the moral realm where much of the conversation has been in recent years and into the sacramental realm. Instead of talking about excommunication for specific living arrangements, who is and who is not in sin, this chapter talked about the power, the gift, the sign, the grace of this specific sacrament. How does celebrating this sacrament empower and transform the individuals involved, what gift does it offer to the world for its salvation. That is a very different conversation and a far more exciting one for me. I have already finished chapter 4 which is a beautiful exposition on love and opens this up wonderfully.

Irene wrote: "One of the things I am finding challenging in this chapter (challenging in a good way) is that Pope Francis seems to be moving the conversation away from the moral realm where much of the conversat..."

Oh yes Irene, I completely agree!

Looking forward to chapter 4 even more now! :)

Yes, I caught that too and didn't mean to focus on the more negative aspects in my first post...I see so much hope and potential of relationship with God in the sacraments, of which marriage is one.

One of the things I learned in RCIA and has stayed with me is that 'you become the God you worship'...if you worship a vengeful, authoritarian God, that is who you will become. In turn, if you worship a kind, loving, forgiving God, that is who you will become.

I find such truth in this and think Pope Francis is a living example of the caring, accepting, loving God he worships and is trying to reveal to all of us, through his thoughts and more importantly, his actions...

Susie wrote: "One of the things I learned in RCIA and has stayed with me is that 'you are the God you worship'...if you worship a vengeful, authoritarian God, that is who you will become. In turn, if you worship a kind, loving, forgiving God, that is who you will become. ..."

What is RCIA Susie?

I think there is much truth in this - I think that's why Paul says that if you have every spiritual gift but not love, you have nothing. Everything must be done with the right heart.

I also agree with all you say about Francis. It is not the teaching he has changed so much as the approach - everything he does seems focused on redemption rather than pushing away. He's modeling the father of the prodigal son that Jesus describes, waiting at the gate, if only one will come back. You don't have to be perfect first to come back - you just have to come back.

Sounds as if you had a good RCIA experience. That is wonderful. How long ago was it that you came into the Church?

RCIA is 'The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults'.
It is a process developed by the Catholic Church for prospective converts to Catholicism who are above the age of infant baptism. Candidates are gradually introduced to aspects of Catholic beliefs and practices. (Lifted straight off the Google :))

When I was looking for meaning, guidance and something 'more' in my late 20's, I was feeling the call to the Catholic Church, started going to my local parish, and within a couple weeks, literally, was the notice for RCIA starting up in my parish. It typically starts in the fall, with adults becoming full members through confirmation the following Easter. We were dismissed out of Mass before the Celebration of the Eucarist to 'break open the Word' and classes with various topics after Mass every couple weeks, several retreats and many other opportunities to explore the faith before committing (or not) to the faith...

Yes, Irene, I had a wonderful experience and can only say that God played a huge part in how things came together for me...I feel like I had the priest I needed, the RCIA team I needed to help me explore Catholicism in all it's beauty, wonder, and yes, even the dark parts of the history that I was able to freely and openly choose the faith.

I was somewhat unique in my parish because I hadn't been baptized or confirmed so they had me go through the process for 2 years before being baptized and cofirmed all at once. Thus I went through with 2 different classes and had lots of extra time for study, reflection, talks with the Priest, so I don't regret it, but after me, no one else had to wait 2 years to be baptized! My sponsor, (parallel of godparent) was so not happy about this...she worried deeply for my soul not being baptized that whole time!
I came into the Church Easter 1990...Baptism, First Communion, and Confirmation all at once, also pretty unique!

Other quick reflection is how helpful my process was to close friends who were raised Catholic...many of them products of Catholic schools and a more strict environment would have me ask all sorts of questions they did not still understand because I could freely ask anything with no fear of judgement! I was able to put a new view on many of the things they were taught to believe, but not sure why...

Long winded, but it was a very life defining time for me!

Back to topic... :)

Actually, although your parish may not have had many people in the RCIA be fully initiated at that time, the celebration of all three Sacraments of Initiation at the Easter Vigil is the norm and what the RCIA was intended for. So, in the bigger picture, you were not that unique.

The highlights in this chapter that attracted my attention were first in paragraph 62 where the pope speaks of “The indissolubility of marriage – ‘what God has joined together, let no man put asunder’ Mt 19:6) – should be not viewed as a ‘yoke’ imposed on humanity, but as a ‘gift’ granted to those who are joined in marriage . . .” I wondered how many couples at the altar or later think in these terms. My first thinking, if my memory serves me right, was a feeling of gratitude and wonder that this relative stranger standing next to me has agreed to spend the rest of her life with me. We also were at one wedding where the groom was crying during a good part of the church ceremony while the bride was all smiles. It was from happiness. Now some eleven years later they are still happy with three children.

The pope writes about a “rift that has opened up between the family and society
between family and the school; the education pact today has been broken and thus the education alliance between society and the family is in crisis”. (Paragraph 84 and there will be more on the subject later in book).

I see and hear of a push in the education area referred to variously as “gender ideology” or even “homosexual agenda” to the point of rewriting elementary school textbooks to make them “gender neutral” with the strange idea to have the children “decide” eventually what gender they “think” they are. This is making itself strongly felt in the US—notice the “bathroom issue” coming down from the president himself. The proponents are claiming this is an egalitarian issue but they only throw confusion and lies into natural relationship between people.

I know there is a strong political force in Western Europe for it with a push to enforce it throughout the 28 nations of the European Union. That is yet another political issue of thugs in Brussels and Strasbourg ordering around smaller independent states and peoples to heed their deranged ideologies. It is more than a political issue; it’s a cultural warfare that wants to undermine the foundations of the West.

Finally getting caught up on my reading a bit :)

We can never underestimate how much we get influenced by our culture when it comes to our understanding of marriage, and with its breakdown we have seen an immense increase of broken families.

I have been happily married for over 30 years, and what's more, I know many couples who are too. We shouldn't treat the long-term aspect of marriage as this rare unatainable thing reserved for the few as the culture keeps suggesting to us ad nauseam.
First and foremost, it is in the attitude that you bring to marriage. If you and your spouse have the mutual resolve and maturity to stick it out, chances are you will. In all our difficult moments it never occurred to me to just leave. What we've had invested already was too precious to simply give up. All the spats in the world don't amount to anything compared to the superabundant riches a life together brings. The two are truly more then the sum of the parts.

As for the indissolubility of marriage, we would have to ask why do we believe that marriage is to be life-long to begin with? Isn't this a little drastic? Yet we accept it as such, and not just within our cultural surroundings, but universally and throughout history. The only answer is, the conjugal nature of marriage has the potential for procreation. The blood ties we create matter, and they outlast our lifetimes.
I don't know if any of you ever watch "Genealogy Roadshow." What strikes me time and again how deeply emotionally involved people are in finding out about barely known or lost family members. If anything, these tears show that family ties are truly eternal and they unwittingly witness to the sacramental nature of marriage.

The Church is really ramping up their part on preparing couples in Pre-Cana programs in the dioceses and individual parishes. Plus, we are experiencing a proliferation of available materials from places such as the Augustine Institude and Lighthouse Catholic Media - those are the ones I'm familiar with. And there are parish programs and workshops helping married couples along the way.

I have also at times served as a parish volunteer helping folks with annulments. Annulments are official declarations of whether a marriage, now civilly divorced, was a sacramental marriage. The focus of them (if you have to do the full annulment, it isn't required in all cases) isn't the marriage itself, but an inquiry into the background of both spouses, and whether or not it was possible for them to actually enter into a sacramental union. So when you have abuse of any sort, alcoholism, drug use, habitual adultery, etc., etc., these are all negative indicators in regards to a person's ability of living a self-giving and loving union.

Kerstin wrote: "Finally getting caught up on my reading a bit :)

We can never underestimate how much we get influenced by our culture when it comes to our understanding of marriage, and with its breakdown we have..."

Wonderful commentary overall. I agree with you and second the points you make.

I would only like to comment on your point about our cultural influences.

Love is made up of three components: intimacy or closeness, passion or sex, and commitment or decision. You don’t have love if you don’t call it love. What if you don’t have all three? You don’t have consummate love if none of these are present. If you have intimacy it’s only liking or friendship. If you’re not intimate but you’re passionate, it’s love at first sight or infatuation. If’ you’re neither intimate or passionate but committed it’s empty love. Two out of three can lead to romantic love (no commitment), compassionate love (no physical attraction), fatuous love (no intimacy).

Social psychology of love focuses on three big variables all other things being equal. The three big ones are:

You’re more likely to find a romantic relationship with a person you live
close to than with a stranger.

People who are similar are more likely to attract each other. Opposites don’t really attract. I say good luck to couples that find their partner is the complete opposite of them. Unfortunately this happened three times in my immediate family that ended up in divorce. I too have been happily married for 30 years.

You’re more likely to fall in love with someone you already know. There is truth to the phrase "Birds of a feather flock together".

I am not friends with television and not familiar with "Genealogy Roadshow" but we had an unfortunate/fortunate incident. My brother had an “illegitimate” son
That he knew only as a baby. My brother often wondered about his whereabouts but never found him. When my brother passed away a couple of years ago the “lost” son turned up owing to the obituary. He was well established, well educated, living across the country and came to meet his two half-brothers for the first time and the rest of the family.