21st Century Literature discussion

This thread is for discussion of the whole book, including events in the last section. There will be spoilers!

Ugh I'm sorry to say I was hoping for a dramatic ending but this book went from bad to worse! What an uninspired reunion of the couple. Hans is one of the most lackluster, uncompelling protagonists I have come across in awhile!

I'm sorry you found it disappointing. I will admit, I too had hoped for a bigger finish. I picked this book as a moderator pick before I read it, based on some strong recommendations. I still think it is a good book, but I suspect it had much more power several years ago. Now, as at least one reviewer pointed out, it suffers from being just one in a long line of post 9-11 books. It's better than some I've encountered, but I hoped for something more from it.

So, let's talk about cricket. The rules have always been a mystery to me. What I liked about the use of cricket in this book was the way it pulled together very diverse people. The other cricket players became something like a family for Hans. Late in the book, Hans talks about how they took care of another player, Shiv, whose wife had left him for another man. Here is an excerpt:

"I sometimes wondered why the respect of these men mattered so much to me--mattered more, at the time, than anyone else's respect. After that night with Shiv, I thought I had the answer to my question: these people, who in themselves were no better or worse than average, mattered because they happened to be the ones, should anything happen to me, whom I could prevail on to look after me as Shiv had been looked after. It was only after the fact that I figured out they'd already been looking after me." P. 174 of my copy.

Casceil, I'm still glad I read it! And you point out a good passage. The cricket story really is fascinating to me and I think much better done than the central plot line. On p 211 Chuck talks about how cricket could unite America and while Hans is rightfully dubious there is much merit to the notion of unity and brotherhood in the game. I kind of want to watch a youtube video of cricket because I still have no idea what the game is. O'Neill does a nice job on p 120 of describing the value of this 'subcommunity' and its "agglomeration of unspeakable individual longings."

On a side note, I think this is nothing like your standard 9/11 book and I find it odd that the author even uses it as a focal point, other than as a pivotal point of change for the characters' future choices.

You are right that this isn't a standard 9/11 book. I thought about that when I was looking up the links about Tribecca. Most authors would have featured what happened to the loft, or at least discussed where and when Hansel and Rachel learned what was happening. This author kind of goes out of his way to talk around 9/11.

We need Hugh to tell us more about cricket.

Understanding cricket is a life's work! It has been described (by an American) as the only sport that can be played for five days without producing a winner. All that you really need to know to understand this book is that it is a game that inspires fanatical devotion in those who follow it and total bafflement in those that don't. Historically it is largely confined to Britain and the former British empire, but it is very popular in Caribbean islands such as Trinidad, Jamaica and Barbados. Cricket in America is mostly played by expats and has never really taken off, though there was a strong Philadelphia team that toured England several times up to the 1920s. More recently there have been international matches in the U.S.A. between India, Pakistan and other Asian teams like Sri Lanka. There is also some history of cricket in the Netherlands - Holland and Denmark have been the game's continental outposts.

On Dianne's specific point about cricket as a force for unity, it has been said that it has helped bring historical enemies such as India and Pakistan together, though peace will always be fragile there. The West Indies play as a single team (again not without disputes and inter-island rivalries) so the game can be seen as a force for Caribbean unity.

Hugh, I don't know how well you remember this book, but there is a lot about how Hans sees himself as a cricket player. He bats the way he always has, even though American fields are very different and his style of batting does not work here. Being a cricket player seems to be a part of his identity, and his unwillingness to change his style of play seems almost like a religious statement. You say that cricket inspires "fanatical devotion" in those who follow it. I guess this isn't really a question, so much as a comment.

Casceil,
I'd forgotten that point of detail, as you may have guessed. The outlook of a cricketer is often determined by where he learned the game - weather, the type of pitch and the size of the field can affect this a lot. European players tend to be less aggressive, because the ball tends to move more (both in the air and off the pitch) in the weather conditions that are most common here, and I would expect Holland to be more like England and New York (at least in high summer) to be closer to the sunny conditions (and hard bouncy pitches) of the Caribbean. It is also a game that at club level often attracts players whose skills are limited at best.

Thanks Hugh your comments are much appreciated! It is very helpful to understand the game, players etc and gives some context to the book.

I have enough other reading projects going on that I have sort of given up on reading the book, which just didn't capture my focused attention. But, as I listen to you all talk about cricket, having lived through 911 (view spoiler)[(and my husband had died less than two weeks earlier) (hide spoiler)] and hearing Casceil speak of the displacement to daily lives by her family's house fire, I can almost grasp the analogies the O'Neil is making. I almost feel as if he is using the parallels to give context to his own experiences of 911 -- but I haven't checked where he himself was at the time. I certainly know people who are still healing -- and it is community that tends to help. We talk about the day with greater distance from it now.

I have finished it and found the whole book and its characters terribly dreary. The history of cricket simply sent me to sleep. Everyone seems to be emphasising Hans but Rachel was no better. There was very little to recommend about this book in my mind

I'm impressed that you finished the book, Marie. My husband reacted to it much the way you did, and gave up before p. 100. I'm glad I read the book, but there were times when I felt like I was dragging myself through it. In retrospect, in the days since I finished it, I have found myself thinking about the book more often than I would have expected, and sort of putting together things I did not notice while reading it.

I do wonder if it is one of those books that impresses writers more than casual readers - although I enjoyed it, I didn't think of it as a modern classic, and it certainly had sections that could have been edited a little. I must try and find my copy and at least skim read it a little before the end of the month

I think you may be right, Hugh. My husband joked about the book having "too much technique and not enough to use it on."

I think your husband raises a good point Casceil! I'll keep an eye out for any new (or older) books by the author to see if they sound good, O'Neill does have a lot of talent.

I have found the book now. Just re-read the page about how Hans met Chuck Ramkissoon. "By the standards I brought to it, Walker Park was a very poor place for cricket". So in British terms we are talking about a small park ground, with trees inside the playing area. The significance of that is that hitting a tree would mean four runs, this is the random element. I'd also forgotten the detail about matting wickets - these tend to favour slow bowlers who spin the ball rather than faster bowlers who swing it (swing is loosely the equivalent of swerve in baseball). But my initial point about the environment favouring big hitting rather than batting with subtlety holds true. So there is quite a lot in those few pages which a cricket follower would recognise and enjoy. Since this is within the first 10 pages of the book this probably made me think less about how unsympathetic a character Hans is.

I had the impression reading the book (and knowing nothing about cricket) that whatever you had to do to score on America fields including knocking ball in the air in a way that Hans would find almost sacrilegious. I don't think Hans is necessarily an unsympathetic character. I didn't dislike him. I just wanted him to be less passive.

I disliked him. You are nicer than me Casceil!

I see Marc has written a review of Netherland. He said a lot that I agree with. Here is his review: "A solid 2.5 stars. Parts I really liked and several parts where I was just calculating how many pages were left. Some really great writing but the overall story seemed muddled. Like mixing the idea of love, cricket, immigration, and 9/11 together into a drink where they still taste like separate ingredients. Maybe the main character was just a little too numb for me. He didn't seem to care, so why should I?"

That last comment, "he didn't seem to care, so why should I?", seemed like a very apt observation. But yesterday I was telling a friend of mine about this book, particularly about cricket, and she thought it sounded interesting. That startled me a little. I liked the book, but I don't think I would describe it as "interesting." I'm not sure why not, though. There are many interesting aspects to this book. I found the parts about the Chelsea hotel interesting. Chuck was a very interesting character. Somehow, though, the pieces didn't seem to come together as well as they should have.

I read this book years ago. I remember wondering why it was touted as a 9/11 book. I did not particularly enjoy it. I remember the cricket, though.

Hah! I didn't think anyone actually read my reviews ; )

I also thought Chuck was a very interesting character, Casceil. As Linda stated, touting it as a 9/11 books seems a bit curious. It's like the book dabbles in these various things (finance, marriage, 9/11/ cricket, etc.) but doesn't really seem interested in exploring any one of them. The characters themselves seem like they're sort of going through the motions. Was this flatness supposed to be a reflection of post-9/11 life or just the 21st century, in general? Maybe Hans needed to be treated for depression.. ?

On the flip side, the writing itself was often very impressive (turns of phrases, pacing, etc.).

I do think there was an interesting arc to Hans journey in terms of how his friendship with Chuck develops, how he manages to find a sense of community through cricket, and even sort of adopts America by eventually altering his batting form.

I wonder how many references to sports figures were lost on readers. I know nothing about cricket, but I thought "the summer of Wayne Rooney's foot" was a pretty comical characterization (which would have only been funny if you follow the English national football team or the FIFA World Cup; Rooney was a star striker for England and injured his foot before the World Cup so there were daily predictions and analyses about whether he would heal in time to play for the tournament).

Thanks, Marc. I did wonder about the summer of Wayne Rooney's foot.

Casceil wrote: "Thanks, Marc. I did wonder about the summer of Wayne Rooney's foot."

Yes - if you lived in England that summer, you would not need that one explained, which is probably why I didn't remember it. If the book is still around in 100 years time, it could attract some pretty lengthy footnotes, not just about cricket but about all of the other topical references. I suspect that much of the detail about New York went over my head!

I read this a couple of years back, and I dont think I will have time to reread it this month. I only vaguely remember the plot, but I do remember the cricket & loved it. (Although I still dont quite understand the game, but that seems to be normal...). And of course I loved the parts about The Netherlands... For some reason, though, it dont remember it as a 'post 9/11'-book, was quite surprised by the blurb when I took the book from the shelf yesterday.

The book is set shortly after 9/11, but in many ways it's not really a "post-9/11 book" because it does not focus on the events of 9/11. It discusses the aftermath of 9/11, but mostly in a rather indirect way.

Casceil wrote: "The book is set shortly after 9/11, but in many ways it's not really a "post-9/11 book" because it does not focus on the events of 9/11. It discusses the aftermath of 9/11, but mostly in a rather i..."

I found it really fascinating that an event as seemingly significant as 9/11 would bare so little mark on this book. Even the discussions of political/military options thereafter get nipped in the bud in order to keep the marital status quo... ? Not really sure how to phrase that one. It's not like things were good, but it seemed like Hans refrained from commenting to keep the peace partially, but also because he didn't really have strong opinions. Kind of a lost opportunity in my opinion.

Lost opportunity? I don't know. I think it was deliberate. I think the author wanted to avoid showing any political discussion between Hans and Rachel.

Casceil wrote: "Lost opportunity? I don't know. I think it was deliberate. I think the author wanted to avoid showing any political discussion between Hans and Rachel."

I meant not showing the impact or making the event of 9/11 more central to the story seemed a bit of a lost opportunity. Didn't have to be through their political discussions--I just raised this because even discussions of it were shut down in the book. It was what caused Rachel to want to move back overseas; she felt unsafe both because of the event and the aftermath (politically and foreign policy-related). It's like this dark cloud over everything. The elephant in the room. The... [Damn! I've run out of cliches.]

Marc wrote: "Casceil wrote: "Lost opportunity? I don't know. I think it was deliberate. I think the author wanted to avoid showing any political discussion between Hans and Rachel."

I meant not showing the imp..."

I agree I think it is odd that it seemed to drive the characters to separate lives, and while it didn't drive them apart it did seem to be the 'last straw', so to speak. I'm not sure if O'Neill thought it would take over the whole book (how can you have cricket be a primary topic if 9/11 also is)? On the other hand, why reference it at all if it is just superfluous, there could have been any other trigger to result in the Rachel and Hans pursuing different lives.

I don't think O'Neill wanted to focus on 9/11, though it was the dark cloud over everything. I think he wanted to use the aftermath as a setting, and he wanted to talk about the impact on the city and on the emotions of all the people whose lives were disrupted. Hans and Rachel did not seem to talk to each other about much of anything. There seemed to be a total breakdown of communication between them.

I'm not quite done. At first I was put out by the character, by Rachel leaving him, at the fact nothing really dramatic ever really happens.

I don't know the rules of cricket. (It was hard enough learning the rules of baseball.) But I think you don't need to. Cricket is just something that gives Hans an anchor. It reminds him of his mother and a safer time in life.

Also it gives him a community. Something important as his family has abandoned him.

I also think this book is only half the story. I'd be interested reading the other half by Rachel. It's like this is something his marriage counselor asked him to do.

Cricket does give Hans a community. I think it is something he clings to as a part of his sense of self. It's part of the way he wears his "foreignness" as almost a badge or a wall, I'm not sure which.

I think this book was wonderful. I really enjoy the language. One of the things I came up with while writing my review is that this book is all about isolation. (Like the phrase "no man is an island".)

Not only is Hans "an island" on an island, but he is isolated in many ways. He is a non-New Yorker on what is arguably the most defining times for New Yorkers. He is a foreigner. He is a cricketer. His wife and son have left him (which it seems to me was a second attack). He is the only non-colored member of the cricket team. Cricket itself is isolating. Remember, if anyone wanted to play baseball,they couldn't have the field.

He goes back to England and he's still isolated. No wife, his son is hanging around his wife's lover. Even when they go on vacation and the whole body surfing thing, remember she doesn't catch the wave.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I'm glad you liked it, Kirsten. You and I came at this book from opposite directions, but I think our conclusions match. I saw it as about a man who keeps looking for some community to fit into--the residents at his hotel, his cricket team, somebody. But yes, he is very isolated, and even the communities he "joins" are groups of outsiders who hang together in some sort of isolation from the mainstream.