The Sword and Laser discussion

On his blog, fantasy author Jim C. Hines took the text of a few older works and genderswapped them to examine how male vs female characters are described. It struck many of us as a good way for a writer to check up on their unconscious biases.

http://www.jimchines.com/2016/06/if-w...

I was thinking though that it's all about the point of view. So a teenager might be really fixated on the physical characteristics of members of their attracting gender or genders. An adult fashion designer is probably looking more at a stranger's clothing. I wonder what an asexual person notices about a stranger first?

I guess what I'm getting at is that description in a book is a matter of a bunch of choices, and a better author is considering these choices and making them one way or another on purpose to build character or move the story along, whereas a weaker author makes these decision by default or just importing a stereotype.

I think you nailed it with it being about the POV. While some books have a bit of sameyness to them across the board there are plenty of other books where I can tell who is narrating immediately just from the way something is being described. When a character is being described in many ways I am learning just as much about the POV as I am the character being described.

As a teenager, I wasn't so much into the sexual side of the characters, but whether or not I wanted to BE them. Or in some way already was them. For example, I was really into horses, did a lot of showing, so any character (male or female) that was about my age that did amazing things w/horses–Elizabeth Moon comes strongly to mind–was a strong draw. In fact, as a teen, I was pretty turned off by romance of any ilk.

I'm not a strongly gendered woman, I don't go for all the frippery that so many women seem to find 'affirming' or 'validating' or whatever. Neither do I relate to the swagger & leg sprawl of the average male (I just came back from a plane trip, surrounded by guys who sit like their nuts hurt...brain fever?). I just do the things I want to do, & find the cultural assignments of gender rather ridiculous in this day & age.

So yes, absolutely POV makes a difference...but to the extent that POV is cultural programming, I think it's extremely important for some writers to push the envelope.

It's good to be reminded how terrible it used to be.

I've been a feminist since I was a kid and saw what my teacher went through after her husband died back in the mid-70s, but some of my favorite books as a boy were written by women, so I may have been primed for that anyway.

Joanna wrote: "On his blog, fantasy author Jim C. Hines took the text of a few older works and genderswapped them to examine how male vs female characters are described. It struck many of us as a ..."

And as I have recently finished a re-read of Stranger in a Strange Land, (bleh!), the first gender swap was delightful.

Trike wrote: "It's good to be reminded how terrible it used to be.

I've been a feminist since I was a kid and saw what my teacher went through after her husband died back in the mid-70s, but some of my favorite..."

Name one & lets gender-swap it! See if it holds up. :-)

Little House in the Big Woods
The Dragonriders of Pern
Wild Seed

Wild Seed I did not change the name "Anyanwu", because I am sufficiently unfamiliar with it to know if it usually female or is used by women and men alike.

Book One Chapter Six, scene picked pretty much arbitrarily.

He stripped, eyeing the new clothing with distaste.
"Accustom your body to these things," she told him as she began helping him dress. "I have been a man often enough to know how uncomfortable man's clothing can be, but at least this is Dutch, and not as confining as the English." [...] "If I had to be a man, though, I think I'd rather pass as Dutch than as English. I would here, anyway."
He looked at her tall, straight black woman's body. "It is hard to think of you ever being a man."
She shrugged. "It would be hard for me to imagine you as a woman if I hadn't seen you that way."
"But..." He shook his head. "You would make a bad man, however you looked. I would not want to see you as a man."
"You will, though, sooner or later. Let me show you how to fasten that."
It became almost possible to forget that he was not a man now.

And Book 3, Chapter 13
The woman was a stranger. Some local freedwoman, perhaps, or even a runaway. Anyanwu always did what he could for runaways, either feeding and clothing them and sending them on their way better equipped to survive or, on those rare occasions when one seemed to fit into the house, buying her.
This was a compact, handsome little black woman not much bigger than Anyanwu was in his true form. He raised his head and looked at her with interest. If this one has a mind to match her body, he might buy her even if she did not fit. It had been too long since he had had a wife. Occasional lovers ceased to satisfy him after a while.

Jim C. Hines posted a followup where he does the genderswap treatment to some of his own work, and also Seveneves.

http://www.jimchines.com/2016/06/if-w...

But..."Sevenadams" isn't a palindrome!

I was also a huge fan of Pern and would argue it is McCaffrey that broke through for female authors in SFF. Whatever the sociological implications, Pern was a rollicking good story. It didn't preach, it just did.

I've been listening to the new podcast about women in Fantasy called Breaking the Glass Slipper (genius title) and they hit on this exact topic.

It really underscores how pervasive it still is to diminish female characters. Even enlightened male authors struggle with it precisely because it's so pervasive.

Trike wrote: "I've been listening to the new podcast about women in Fantasy called Breaking the Glass Slipper (genius title) and they hit on this exact topic.

It really underscores how pervasive it still is to ..."

I picked up that podcast at the suggestion of Andrew Knighton, a fellow S&L listener and author. I've been enjoying it.

I'm sort of replying to bazillions of these great comments!

As to Stranger in a Strange Land, Sparrow Knight, that was a neat ("neat"! yes, I'm 400 years old) gender switch. Do you remember, am I thinking of the right book? Do you remember whether Stranger is the book which actually opens with a gender-bender, is that the book where two people in spacesuits come off shift, decide to spend the night together, and don't know each other's gender until they remove their helmets in the apartment? That, whether it was Stranger or not, was my first experience of a gender-bender as a kid.

I have to say, I didn't recognize the other pieces Hines rewrote. But I can imagine. It's hard enough to find what feels like an authentic woman's voice writing about a woman's experience, wait, I think it's harder in some ways. Do you think women might write to please? We are so programmed to please (or we used to be).

I have to ask, since the topic is gender, if anyone knows The Female Man by Joanna Russ? An amazing piece of gender art. I'm not going to say a word about it. I just looked to see what my review said (I read it last year) and found I hadn't added it to my list at all. But Aaron mentions POV, and it's only through the tone of the narrator in this book that one begins to sense that gender is not determinative. And I'm not going to say another word!

I haven't read Russ' book, but I have read similar ones. I hesitate to even mention some of them because the fact the main character is not a man (or in some cases not even human) is the whole point and sometimes a twist to make you second-guess your assumptions.

My mom, a nurse, used to ask this riddle decades ago which often stumped people because the male-centric mindset is so pervasive: a boy and his father were in a car accident and taken to the hospital by paramedics. As they are rushed into surgery, the doctor refused to operate on them saying, "I can't, this is my son." What is the surgeon's relationship to the injured?

Most people (including me) would say, "Grandfather." But the answer is "Mother/wife." Nowadays you could also say "gay husband", so it doesn't quite work any more as a test for enlightenment, but for years this was a litmus test to check for gender bias. (In the version where the father is killed, people would often just lock up in a fit of brain-freeze.)

AnnLoretta wrote: "I'm sort of replying to bazillions of these great comments!

As to Stranger in a Strange Land, Sparrow Knight, that was a neat ("neat"! yes, I'm 400 years old) gender switch. Do you remember, am I..."

Wrong book. And unfortunately, I can't help you w/which book was your first gender bender. The lead character in SISL was a pontificating horny old goat who kept a harem of women 'secretaries' in attendance. I've met men like him & wanted to slap their heads off their shoulders.

The Wild Seed gender swaps...we never do hear about how men's clothing fits, it's a given that women's will be uncomfortable, that a woman will go so far as to do damage to her body to be 'attractive'. The second section...yeah, same ol', same ol', isn't it? Maybe already gender swapped?

I've just finished The Windup Girl, & the part of the windup would be an interesting part to swap. There's already another pretty gender swapped woman, Kanya. But to GS Emiko, a GMO human lab grown for the intended purpose of being a sexual companion....w/out changing the gender of the principle male characters, so the whole thing becomes a gay male swap...I'll have to work that up a bit.

Sparrow Knight wrote: "AnnLoretta wrote: "I'm sort of replying to bazillions of these great comments!

As to Stranger in a Strange Land, Sparrow Knight, that was a neat ("neat"! yes, I'm 400 years old) gender switch. Do..."

Yeah, I thought it was another book. I think it was a Heinlein, though, I don't remember it being as smooth as Azimov. Thanks!

Trike wrote: "I haven't read Russ' book, but I have read similar ones. I hesitate to even mention some of them because the fact the main character is not a man (or in some cases not even human) is the whole poin..."

Yeah. Back in the day, that riddle could confound people. Now there are lots of answers.

If you don't mind my saying something about The Female Man, it's based on the premise that one woman is born in four (or five) parallel universes, and the culture of each four same/different female persons shapes her to the point that you have a spectrum of human behaviors, ranging from that which we would consider female to that which we would consider male, and yet each is the same woman. Some are "good" and some are "evil", whatever that means. That part is no spoiler. It's interesting, really. Especially for 1970. I sort of think that the title doesn't mean "the man who was a biological woman" or vice versa. I think it's more a play on how religious and legal documents have evolved, and are still written today, with a disclaimer that "he" shall mean "she" as appropriate, and that sort of thing. What is the true implication of that, in a linguistic and cultural sense? Lots more to it, but I wouldn't want to spoil it. It's brief, but intense. Out of print, as far as I know. Had to get it from interlibrary loan. I could have bought it used, but it's not out of copyright. Without going off into the very current realms of "Refer to me as "they," please, not "she," which is a separate discussion.

Sparrow Knight wrote: "The Wild Seed gender swaps...we never do hear about how men's clothing fits"

I have occasionally thought it would be cool to turn early SFF tropes on their head. Those works were sometimes called "Scientific Romances." I realize the root of "romance" here means something different from its current meaning, and yet...what if SF grew out of the gothic romances of the 19th century? Rochester as a space ship captain, with extensive discussion of how he looks in his tight uniform. Heathcliff as an elf, or alien, doomed to love what he could not have.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Sparrow Knight wrote: "The Wild Seed gender swaps...we never do hear about how men's clothing fits"

I have occasionally thought it would be cool to turn early SFF tropes on their head. Those works..."

Wait, I've been researching. Do you mean this is a known, award-winning black woman writer and my library doesn't have all her books. Thank you so much, Sparrow Knight. I'll take care of it.

AnnLoretta wrote: "Do you mean this is a known, award-winning black woman writer and my library doesn't have all her books. "

Oh, my dear, you are in for a treat!

Now, are you familiar w/James Tiptree? Another gender challenger.

What I find most disturbing is the fact that I have a devil of a hard time w/my imagination making everyone white, when the author has very clearly described them as non-white...*sigh* Limited imagination here. :-(

I'm currently reading Witches Abroad & reflecting on it in light of this discussion. As the author says, "This is a story about stories. Or what it really means to be a fairy godmother. But it's also particularly about reflections & mirrors." And then proceeds to utilize the dithering daft old lady stereotype for at least 3 of his characters.

GS'd...

>>>Desiderio was a kindly soul. Fairy godfathers develop a very deep understanding about human nature, which makes the good ones kind & the bad ones powerful. He was not someone to use extreme language, but it was possible to be sure that when he deployed a mild term like 'a bee in his bonnet' he was using it to define someone whom he believed to be several miles over the madness horizon & accelerating. [...]

So...Desiderio was dying. Interfering old baggage. He deserved death. He'd never understood the kind of power he'd had. He was one of those people afraid to do good for fear of doing harm, who took it all so seriously that they'd constipate themselves with moral anguish before granting the wish of a single ant.

Adam looked down & out over the city. Well, there were no barriers now. The stupid voodoo man in the swamp was a mere distraction, with no understanding.<<<

A man described as interfering old baggage, fribbling over the consequences of doing something. Yes, I believe they've killed them all off. ;-)

Try gender-swapping Monstrous Regiment :)

Brendan wrote: "Try gender-swapping Monstrous Regiment :)"

Sparrow Knight wrote: "Now, are you familiar w/James T..."

Thanks so much!! books are 10 deep all around my house, but I'll get there! I love good, good speculative, imaginative, True-North-challenging fiction.

Brendan wrote: "Try gender-swapping Monstrous Regiment :)"

Discworld is awesome in general, and that one was great. My library has all of them. After S&L read "Wyrd Sisters" I gradually read them all. The only downside is that there is no more Discworld to read.

Wild Seed is somewhat of a weird one for a genderswap because the two principle characters are a woman who can shapeshift, including into the form of a man, and a being, born male and with a male identity, who takes over the bodies of others, usually male but sometimes female. Neither of them are firmly binary.

Brendan wrote: "Try gender-swapping Monstrous Regiment :)"

I don't have a copy, you'll have to give it a go. Find a passage that seems like the author is trying to get beyond gender & do the gender swap to see if they really managed it. At least, that seems how it would work in a book already deliberately trying to gender bend. As a double check of the unconscious gender attributes.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Sparrow Knight wrote: "The Wild Seed gender swaps...we never do hear about how men's clothing fits"

I have occasionally thought it would be cool to turn early SFF tropes on their head. Those works..."

I wish GR had a "like" button, like FB.

Nobody mentioned Kameron Hurley as a gender-bending master yet? Her Bel Dame Apochrypha and Worldbreaker series were amazing. In the Worldbreaker series there are five gender roles, which is very refreshing.

Silvana wrote: "Nobody mentioned Kameron Hurley as a gender-bending master yet? Her Bel Dame Apochrypha and Worldbreaker series were amazing. In the Worldbreaker series there are five gender roles, which is very r..."

I found that bit weird. It's male female agender, and then add dominance and submissiveness. I wouldn't want to pick between plain, pure dominance or plain, pure submissiveness, and I certainly wouldn't want to self-identify as such every time I wanted to speak. None of your beeswax, world!