Science and Inquiry discussion

Read this study, does anything uhhh STRIKE you about it? Even worse that this steaming pile was actually touted on WebMD.

Mind you, I am not a fan of cigarettes. But what I see here is a study on pollution output.

Where one of the test subjects is a car.

And CO and CO2 output are conveniently ignored.

OF COURSE THE CAR IS GOING TO SEEM MORE BENIGN if the study revolves around particulate matter. Specifically that of a similar size range to what cigarettes put out.

Not to mention the gaseous output that will not be counted in this study. That's the equivalent of tying the car's hand behind its back.

Really, was this on purpose or what?!


http://www.alberniportal.ca/2013/05/c...

Care to share any poorly done/badly skewed/misleading studies you have come across in your time? Did the methodology strike you as being mere incompetence, or a deliberate shifting of the data? Why?

Usually it's not so much a dumb study so much as the popular media interprets/presents it in a way that's silly or exaggerated.

The worst study I have ever come across was the study by Andrew Wakefield that indicated that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Al: That is definitely another one of my pet peeves. There doesn't even need to be anything wrong with the study for misinfo to get spread far and wide. And the popular media is very good at that. Very good at it indeed :)

Amanda: I've heard that that one brought up before as being badly done, but the person who told me that didn't know what was done wrong. I had not yet gotten to checking out what their methodology was--do tell???

Mel: The majority of the kids in the study had signs of autistic impairment before they had ever even received the MMR vaccine, which was documented by the medical records given to Wakefield at the start of the study, but he reported the children as developing symptoms after the vaccine was administered.

Also, lab technicians that ran the tests came out after the article was published and stated that Wakefield fabricated the results that he reported in the study.

Also, Wakefield never reported to the parents of the children in the study or the journal that published it that his study was funded by a legal team putting together a lawsuit against vaccine companies.

The Wakefield study is just one example of how data fabrication and flawed studies can really affect public health. Despite hundreds of follow up studies demonstrating no link between vaccines and autism, vaccination rates have been falling ever since Wakefield's study was published, even though it was later retracted by the journal that published it. We are getting to a point where we can no longer rely on the concept of herd immunity to protect against the return of these illnesses that used to kill so many people. Not to mention, there have been studies demonstrating a link between autism and the high fevers that children experience as a result of these childhood illnesses that vaccines prevent. This situation has the makings of a public health nightmare, all because one scientist published one horrible study.

Amanda: When I was in grad school, I worked on an adjuvant for a DNA vaccine for measles. (The DNA measles vaccine is very good BTW - ready for human trials in Africa - been through Rhesus macaque study, but nobody is funding that.) I corresponded with Wakefield to be complete (which raised some eyebrows). He was enthusiastic until I proposed a set of gene-chip experiments to determine if his tissue samples had an expression profile that might be linkable somehow. Then he cut me off. I told my thesis adviser that my impression was Wakefield didn't believe it himself, or he didn't really have the large library of samples in his freezer.

Later, I corresponded with another scientist who is currently working on gene-chip experiments like I suggested. The reason to pursue that is that a low-frequency set of alleles interacting with some stimulus can appear like random non-correlation. Do I think that's likely? No. But it's worth eliminating.

Many scientists are not happy with the retraction of Wakefield's study because of the way it happened. Some of those cited by the journalist who wrote the takedown article regretted their involvement and see it as improper fettering of free inquiry. It has made journals and scientists shy about publishing small independent studies (many of which are canaries in the coal mine).

I corresponded with Art Caplan after a piece he wrote on Wakefield's impact. The data I saw from England showed that if anything, Wakefield may have increased vaccination rates. I'll share that data if you like. Not sure how to do that here, as it's Excel and I can't provide the graph.

Wakefield was a late entrant into the anti-vaccine fray, quite late. I know this for certain because my sister was anti-vaccine back in 1982. As far as I have been able to tell, the initiator of the anti-vaccine movement was Jethro Kloss (deceased) who wrote "Back to Eden" a compilation of abandoned medical treatments. Jethro was adopted by a lot of acid heads of the 60's and made millions off his book.

There is a science thread that is excellent in the area. Patterson at Caltech has published studies on a rodent model of autism (and schizophrenia) that he can reproduce at will. He got the idea because thalidomide causes autism if it is taken in a critical window corresponding to 3 days at the end of the first month of pregnancy in humans. The same brain changes happen in rats at the equivalent stage of notocord development that are seen in human dissections of autistic brains. We've corresponded a little. I suggested he try anti-TNF-alpha treatments to see if they alleviate the problem in rats.

The same thing happens with vaccination, virus infection, injection with RNA, etc.. This makes sense. But it's not the child getting an infection, it's the mother. And it's at a very specific period in gestation. Hit the mother after the window or before the window and nothing happens. It has to be right on it.

I've thought about writing an article on this. I think it would be interesting, but it's so much work to publish something.

Brian: That would be a really interesting article. Maybe some day you'll have some free time on your hands; I would love to read whatever you come up with. Also, thank you for mentioning the book Back to Eden; I would really like to check that out.

Here's a sampling of long-term anti-vaccination advocates.
http://www.gilead.net/health/vaccinat...

The following are some natural alternatives to vaccinations for you to consider and the associated resources.

1. Cleanliness and proper sanitation - **These only go so far. It isn't possible to do it well enough to eliminate infectious disease.**

2. Breast feeding – baby gets Mother’s antibodies till baby can produce it’s own
How to Raise A Healthy Child by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn
Natural Alternatives to Vaccination by Zoltan Rona, MD
**This is just wrong. Humans do not deliver antibodies in breast milk. Humans pump them across the placenta to about 1.6X maternal level. ***

3. Proper nutrition (i.e. unrefined natural vegan diet)
Diet For a New America, by John Robbins
**Nutrition matters. But it won't eliminate polio, measles, pertussus, diptheria, typhoid or tetanus. And vegan diets are not necessarily as nutritious as others.

4. The Eight Natural Health Laws
www.gilead.net/health/formula.html - ** 404 on link **

5. Hydrotherapy
Home Remedies, by Agatha Thrash MD & Calvin Thrash, MDs
**It's good. It can bring down a fever. It is very nice. I've done it. But suggesting it will cure or prevent major infectious disease is false. **

6. Colloidal Silver Minerals – both an immune system stimulant and a natural anti-microbial, broad-spectrum germicidal agent
Natural Alternatives to Vaccination – Zoltan Rona, MD
**True to a point. But it won't cure or prevent major diseases. And it causes argyria in people who take it too seriously.**

7. Herbs – Back to Eden, by Jethro Kloss
**Go ahead and read it. Some of it is hilarious. Some of it is appalling. Some of it is ok. There's a new version that I haven't read. I read the old one, from the 1980's with the asthma cure that says to induce vomiting until it stops, and treat drowning by blowing tobacco smoke up a person's rectum. :-)**

Good God, ingesting collidal silver is a really bad idea. I avoid any kind of nanoparticle/colloidal skin product; the toxicity of these things is very much unknown.

I even avoid gold coffee filters. I have used them but then I noticed how the gold flakes off gradually. And according to Dr. House, gold is poison if ingested over a long term.

I see people not vaccinating their kids all of the time in my clinic. It's really a shame, in a sense, that these diseases have become so rare in the US due to vaccination that people are now more afraid of the vaccines then of the diseases. We had an outbreak of pertussis where I live not long ago, not all that big of a deal until you give it to a baby or to ole' grandma. And then there's another measles outbreak a few states over that is presently ongoing. Measles is just another childhood illness, right? Sure, until your kid develops subacute sclerosing panencephalitis.

A year or two ago polio was restricted to jihadi wackos and there ignorant serfs in Pashtunistan and northern Nigeria. Now it's spreading in Syria, a country that has a major emigration problem right now to Lebanon, Jordan, and Turkey. Remember, we all live next to airports...

Can you tell that this issue raises my dander?

Dr. Leonardo Noto
Physician and Author

Brian wrote: "Here's a sampling of long-term anti-vaccination advocates.
http://www.gilead.net/health/vaccinat...

The following are some natural alternatives to vaccinations for you to consider and the a..."

I totally agree with just about all you said here. One minor quibble though is that secretory IgA is delivered through breast milk from mother to child and probably does have some important benefits to the newborn. Does this have any relevance to the vaccination "debate" (to the extent that there is such a thing) -- hell no.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article...

I really enjoyed your posts above, btw.

Leonardo wrote: "I see people not vaccinating their kids all of the time in my clinic. It's really a shame, in a sense, that these diseases have become so rare in the US due to vaccination that people are now more ..."

Since you work in a medical feild. I am going to ask you a question.

I have read somewhere that the average child receives like 20 vaccines in the first two years of life. Is this true?

A single vaccine is probably safe. However over the years the number of vaccines have increased for children. Can these increasing number of vaccines have a detrimental effect in some Childeren?

Betsy wrote: "I even avoid gold coffee filters. I have used them but then I noticed how the gold flakes off gradually. And according to Dr. House, gold is poison if ingested over a long term."

Ahhhh!!!
Now I need my gold tooth crowns removed... Ahhhh!
Did my dentist lie to me? ... Ahhhh!

Mickey wrote: "Leonardo wrote: "I see people not vaccinating their kids all of the time in my clinic. It's really a shame, in a sense, that these diseases have become so rare in the US due to vaccination that peo..."

I see folks come in wanting to "space out" the vaccine schedule for their kids all of the time. The problem with this is that one of the benefits of giving vaccine combinations together, in addition to the obvious benefits (less total shots and improved patient compliance), is that it can result in a better immune response. All medical interventions, whether they be prescribed by your physician, touted by a "homeopath" on late night TV, or sold at your local GNC by a beach bunny have potential side-effects. Yes, more interventions = greater chance of unintended side-effects. However, in order to make the cut to be nationally recommended for children, vaccines have to overwhelmingly show that the benefits of administering the particular vaccine vastly outweighs the risks of the vaccine. The vaccination schedules are worked out by panels of experts at the CDC and other professional organizations (the WHO, etc.) who spend a heck of a lot more time and money looking into this issue than the proponents of various alternative schedules do.

Remember to talk to your personal physician about any/all medical questions before making any medical decisions. The internet is great, but it doesn't replace your doc.

Dr. Leonardo Noto
www.leonardonoto.com

Leonardo wrote: "I see people not vaccinating their kids all of the time in my clinic. It's really a shame, in a sense, that these diseases have become so rare in the US due to vaccination that people are now more ..."

This seems to be another example of "Let everyone else bear the burden (of a vaccination), and I can take a free ride." If everyone does this, then these diseases will eventually return to their previous epidemic levels, won't they?

Mickey - everyone's immune system is very active all the time. A vaccine is a small thing for your immune system to respond to. There are over 100 cold viruses and tens of adenoviruses and rotaviruses and noroviruses, and bacteria - on and on. All those sniffles and coughs toddlers and children get - those FAR outweigh the impact on the immune system of a vaccine. The only instances I know of where people may have developed an autoimmune disorder from vaccination occurred in the USSR's biological weapons program. A great many rather crude vaccines were received - one-off preparations to protect workers. My best opinion on that is that most likely it was the strong adjuvants that caused the problem. (There are animal use formulas such as Freund's complete, that are used to create autoimmune disorders.) But that would not apply to anything you or a child receives from a physician for civilian use.

Metallic gold is non-toxic and it is approved as a food additive. Gold is only toxic in salt form, which releases it as an ion. That cannot occur in the body as gold is quite inert - it's hard to make gold salts.

Gold poisoning is very rare, usually from a cyanide gold salt used in electroplating.

Dr. Noto - There is IgA in breast milk, but it acts within the digestive tract against enteric bacteria and toxins. Humans don't have receptors that pump antibodies across into the bloodstream.

If you want to know about human breast milk, Bruce German at UC Davis is one of the top in the world now. He's been analyzing it for years. Can find him on PubMed. (And he's a great guy. I really liked him.)

Brian wrote: "Metallic gold is non-toxic and it is approved as a food additive. Gold is only toxic in salt form, which releases it as an ion. That cannot occur in the body as gold is quite inert - it's hard to m..."

I knew metalic gold was non toxic, it is the sarcasm in me:)

Brian wrote: "Mickey - everyone's immune system is very active all the time. A vaccine is a small thing for your immune system to respond to. There are over 100 cold viruses and tens of adenoviruses and rotaviru..."

My immune system sucks, that is why every year I get the flu vaccine. Also I am saving my pennies for the $200 shingles vaccine in my old age of 57.

I was just wondering if kids could handle so many vaccines.

I get the flu vaccine also. Shingles vax is good idea.

Brian wrote: "Metallic gold is non-toxic and it is approved as a food additive. Gold is only toxic in salt form, which releases it as an ion. That cannot occur in the body as gold is quite inert - it's hard to m..."

That's what I get for trusting a television doctor.

As bad as TV evangelists.....