Foreworld discussion

All Foreworld KW authors should check out the Support for Independent Authors Group for an almost unlimited trove of writing and publishing information. Group members are an amazingly responsive and helpful lot.

I recently posted an invitation to our little forum here, hoping to tap into some of that energy and enthusiasm. Let's see... some new thoughts and projects would be most welcome about now.

Hi C.B., I saw your post in SIA so it's working!

I have a question. I read the KW Foreworld information and if I understand correctly, I have to use the characters from canon, is that right?
And in that case it would not apply to Ogedei Khan, or how does that work for nonfiction characters? Thanks.

M.L. wrote: "Hi C.B., I saw your post in SIA so it's working!

I have a question. I read the KW Foreworld information and if I understand correctly, I have to use the characters from canon, is that right?
And..."

Hi M.L. !

For Foreworld stories under KW you may use any characters from canon, any characters of your own making, or any characters used by other authors in KW Foreworld stories. (I'm gonna doublecheck that last but it's a rule applying to KW as a whole except in worlds where exceptions are delineated in that world's specific rules.)

Naturally, in all cases you would want to make previously published characters reasonably recognizable and not take them in wildly different directions than a reader might expect. There's some stretch room, with a great example being C.B.'s Red Messenger series, which depicts Cnan from the Mongoliad books in a slightly different manner than one might expect from reading those books - but it's still recognizably Cnan. Feronantus from those early novels also appears in these novels, but C.B. doesn't depart noticeably from the gruff old (a bit younger here) warrior we meet at the start of Mongoliad One.

My own WIP for the saga, Crux Passages, uses all new characters, just as many others in KW do.

Great to see you here (and I'll be popping into SIA before long too!) and looking forward to talking Foreworld Saga with you!

Mike wrote: I'm gonna doublecheck that last

The Foreworld Saga Content Guidelines make no provision against using any elements published in their KW World.

The Content Guidelines are here:
https://kindleworlds.amazon.com/world...

The KW Rights and Publishing Agreement, per the FAQs found here:
https://kindleworlds.amazon.com/faqs?...

include the following Q & A:

"Can I use elements from other Kindle Worlds stories in my own Kindle Worlds story?

Yes, you may build on the ideas, characters, and story lines you find in other Kindle Worlds stories. Simply keep it within the same World. It is also important that your story is your own and not copied from somebody else's Kindle Worlds story with just a few changes. Build on other Kindle Worlds stories, but make them your own."

Now, there is a vagueness to the phrase "build on", but I also don't see how else one could interpret this other than, "Yes, you can take Mike's characters from Crux Passages, place them in your own adventure, and use plot elements and ideas original to Crux passages as long as you tell your own story and don't simply rewrite Mike's."

I'd be interested in hearing from Mark on this aspect of KW, particularly if it was not the intent of the Foreworld Licensor to allow such use. In other worlds that restrict things more, the Content Guidelines page for those worlds is where the restrictions can be found: such as limiting authors to only certain characters in a World, so that the Licensor may continue to build original works outside KW without giving away the ballpark.
If Foreworld's Licensor favors such restrictions, I believe the Content Guidelines would need to be revised.

Probably a moot point as nobody has used any other KW author's material in this way as far as I know, and probably aren't likely to. But I'm all for it, given I intend to limit myself to one or at most two Foreworld stories a year once I finish Crux Passages and its sequel. If the right author wanted to carry on with sequels or prequels I would love to collaborate with them on such a project - although under these rules they would be free to build on these stories without my input too. I would hope they would seek it, however, just as I would if I wanted to pursue loose ends of other KW Foreworld stories. In fact, if I approached someone in that respect, and they asked me not to take up their World elements, I'd respect that wish 100%.

Mike wrote: "Mike wrote: I'm gonna doublecheck that last

The Foreworld Saga Content Guidelines make no provision against using any elements published in their KW World.
The Content Guidelines are here:

https:..."

Hi Mike,

Appreciate all the information. I think I'll start with something short -- actually just started, wrote my first 2 sentences. The plan, at least right now, is to stay in the general time period of the first book. I may have more questions. It sounds like fun. Thanks!

Here's an example from the Content Guidelines of the Jack Daniels and Associates World, with restrictions intended to preserve KW author's rights to original characters they create, and forbidding use of collaborative material within the World's canon which the Licensor does not have exclusive rights to, and therefore cannot extend rights for KW authors to play in those particular pools:

"Avoid Certain Characters: You are not permitted to use original characters created by other Kindle Worlds authors writing in this World. Also, some of the characters appearing in Jack Daniels and Associates works were created by other authors as part of their collaborations with J.A. Konrath, and those characters are not included in your license to write in this World. The characters that should never appear in your story are: Luther Kite (Shaken, Stirred, and Last Call), Andrew Thomas (Shaken, Stirred, and Last Call), Lucy (Stirred and Last Call), David Lund (Spree), Val Ryker (Spree), Javier Estrada (Spree), and Isaiah Brown (Spree). This guideline provides a limited exception (for characters only) to the licenses we grant to you in clause 3(a) and 3(b) of your Kindle Worlds Publishing Agreement."

M.L. wrote: "how does that work for nonfiction characters?"

I missed this part of your question. Given that the Foreworld Saga is meant to be a "secret history" of a world almost but not quite the same as our own (a nifty disclaimer that opens all sorts of doors for writers!) some of the best works in the Saga do indeed concentrate on historical characters either as primary characters or as part of a story's background. Often such figures are drawn as secretly allied with or part of the OMVI. KW stories within the World can also re-purpose historical characters and situations, just as the canonical stories do. Whether it be Ogedei or his brothers, Plato in ancient greece, or any of the various Popes the OMVI comes up against now and then - or even the Inquisition! the Foreworld probably shines brightest when re-purposing history to its own ends.

M.L. wrote: "I think I'll start with something short"

Great. Wasting no time either. You'll find us as helpful as we can be, so don't hesitate to ask anything, or jump into our so far infrequent threads.

I remember wanting to make my first story short :-) Maybe
20,000 words? Less? The beta version I'm finishing now is a bit over 70,000. Hoping to control myself better for the sequel!

That's great - thanks again! Some of my favorite time periods, happenings. Appreciate all the information.

Question! I've been familiarizing myself with some of the worlds and the ones I've seen are not on KU. Can they be, or does KW not allow it. I could have missed some that are KU, but wanted to check.

I'm at 27K words and looking to bring it in under 35K. Early though, so we'll see.

M.L. wrote: "Question! I've been familiarizing myself with some of the worlds and the ones I've seen are not on KU. Can they be, or does KW not allow it. I could have missed some that are KU, but wanted to chec..."

A quick Google shows The Lizzy Gardner Files and The Perseid Collapse Series as KU Eligible, with only one story from each World actually enrolled.

Nice catch, Mike... I would have just assumed not. No wonder Lizzy Gardner Files and Perseid Collapse are so popular. I sent a message to Mark, our keeper of the canon, about this. KU would be a nice option for the Foreworld Saga authors.

M.L., 27k words... that's fantastic. Yeah, sometimes keeping word count under control is the hardest part. The story just wants to tell itself and well, how ya' gonna stop that? Besides, in KW you never have to worry about printing costs (although editing can be a bear, ask Brother Mike). Write on!

Mike, thanks. I had been focused on The Foreworld Saga and didn't look at the others. That's good to know.

C. B., thanks. It is telling itself, and nice to meet all these new characters as my protagonist is meeting them. Discovery. Onward!

I'll ask about KU.

ML: It looks like you've got things sorted out as far as characters use goes, and yes, we're fairly flexible here in The Foreworld Saga as far as character use goes. Our interest lies in the stories that people can dream up, and we figure that the readers will let authors know whether they like a particular interpretation of one character or another. KW has introduced a wrinkle or two as far as determining canon goes, and we were going to sit and wait awhile and let content build up before having any determined conversations about what is new canon (or if that distinction even matters any more).

Delighted to hear that you're writing something. We're looking forward to seeing what you create. Welcome aboard!

-m

A status check here.
I'm now at 39K words and not through so not sure how long it will be. I'm writing this differently from what I usually do, meaning no reading through it and no revising while writing. Should prove interesting! Do you usually plan your stories?

M.L. wrote: "A status check here.
I'm now at 39K words and not through so not sure how long it will be. I'm writing this differently from what I usually do, meaning no reading through it and no revising while w..."

Hopefully others will chime in about the degree to which they pants or plan. I think of myself as a planner, but sometimes sitting down to start writing is a good way to brainstorm your way into at least a minimal outline. I plan to outline my sequel to Crux Passages in as much detail as I can before diving in, although I have a couple thousand words already waiting in Scrivener alongside the so far partial outline. As for Crux Passages itself, I started out without any outline and little idea where I was going. Anyone who looked at my notes at that time would have recognized a half-assed recycling of part of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It was pretty shameful. But I was just learning how to take writing fiction seriously, and had a long way to go before I fleshed the plot out into something I could take seriously and which I wouldn't be embarrassed to let others see. I continued writing and rewriting as I plotted. I changed from first person to multiple pov third person. I wrote and plotted more. I grew, slowly but surely, as a writer, turning into a craft what I'd left behind as no more than a hobby back in college. It was an experience I suppose I had to go through to get where I am now, about to wrap up the beta version of my story. So lack of planning benefitted, in that I could make all the rookie mistakes along the way. I wouldn't give it all up for the world. And I'll never do it again. Strictly outlines from now on, at least enough to be sure I know exactly where I am going before I start. And as much as possible, linear chapter by chapter drafting as I go, even though Scrivener makes it easy to jump around in your book when you want or need to. (Sometimes that later scene just needs to be written while it's fresh in your mind).

That said, I know I'll always be prone to making refinements right up to the end. Every one I've made in the last third of drafting this story has made it immeasurably better. Even now, in the midst of line edits to a finished story, I've done full or partial rewrites of four chapters as I found and fixed plot holes or found improved ways to present the material, and will be doing one more rewrite of the final chapter tonight as I prepare this thing for beta readers to pick apart all over again :-)

Thanks, Mike, appreciate it.
I'm making a few notes as to years so I can stay within actual historical timeframe for certain events. What interests me too is the amount of checking for dates and events and how one thing leads to another and how all of them would make good story frames.
I admire your tenacity about betas and re-writes. I really like the idea of looking forward to going back to the story to see where it goes.

I asked the question about plotters or pantsters in another group. There is definitely a mix.

I asked the question about plotters or pantsters in another group. There is definitely a mix.

Pretty much as many ways to write as there are writers :-)

I always enjoy reading other writer's specific methods, there's always food for thought in tweaking your own approach. Plus reading books like Mark's Jumpstart Your Novel and Planning, Plotting, and Progress that provide specific ways to go about organizing your work.

M.L. wrote: "I'm now at 39K words and not through so not sure how long it will be."

Holy Hand-grenade, M.L.! that's 40k words in less than a month. I'm just gonna step back and let that train go fly'n on by.

However, one consideration if you care about sales (which I don't... okay, lie, ego-dude really, really likes sales, but left brain says they don't matter): KW seems to price works between about 15k and 50k words at $1.99. That's a sweet spot for most readers... if the book drags, they're out a cuppa coffee.

"Do you usually plan your stories?" Mike covered that perfectly in his response. Pantsing is a great way to get started... like a pot of turnips left too long on the stove, the juice just boils out all over, fantastic! However, most pros plot. I'd say that pantsing is the most fun for the author, but a well plotted story is the most enjoyable for the reader. JMHO and YMMV (and OMVI)

C.B. Matson wrote: "M.L. wrote: "I'm now at 39K words and not through so not sure how long it will be."

Holy Hand-grenade, M.L.! that's 40k words in less than a month. I'm just gonna step back and let that train go f..."

In reference to outlines, something important happened when I started using Mark's 18 Chapters outline methodology as starting point for two different projects I wanted to brainstorm. In one case, what I thought would be a straight in and out short story with limited background proved not just capable, but probably needful of a longer treatment, well into novella territory. Just on the basis of filling in some blanks on a spreadsheet. Pantsing something you think is easy and simple runs the risk of getting caught up re-doing a lot of things as I did with early Crux Passages drafts. If you are just having fun doing that and don't mind it, that's great. But if you are working toward a career where deadlines accompany a check and a contract, having good planning practices at hand might save your rear end someday :-)

The second story I threw at Mark's strategy proved itself likely to work as the novelette I had envisioned it being, and I'll be writing that one very soon!

C.B. Matson wrote: "M.L. wrote: "I'm now at 39K words and not through so not sure how long it will be."

Holy Hand-grenade, M.L.! that's 40k words in less than a month. I'm just gonna step back and let that train go f..."

Hi C. B., Thanks, those sound like good price points to me. I will be editing, trust me! I'm at 49K now. :)

Mike wrote: "I always enjoy reading other writer's spe..."

Speaking of other writers' techniques, I'm read Boy's Life by Robert McCammon and the protagonist is twelve and he's on his way to becoming a writer. McCammon has a lot of description around the process. It's set in 1962 and the kid gets his first typewriter. There is also an adult author in the story, a troubled person, you could say. But just mention it because fiction is also a good source for writer insights.

M.L. wrote: "Mike wrote: "I always enjoy reading other writer's spe..."

Speaking of other writers' techniques, I'm read Boy's Life by Robert McCammon and the protagonist is twelve..."

Have been meaning to read that for a long time! Thanks for bringing it up!

Mike wrote: "M.L. wrote: "Mike wrote: "I always enjoy reading other writer's spe..."

Speaking of other writers' techniques, I'm read Boy's Life by Robert McCammon and the protagon..."

It's a pretty good book. He does 'mosey' a bit, but it's good moseying.

Another question. How do you market your KW books, meaning do you do 'free' days? Are their special sites, FB, Twitter, or anywhere else for KW Foreworld? Thanks!

M.L. wrote: "Mike wrote: "M.L. wrote: "Mike wrote: "I always enjoy reading other writer's spe..."

Speaking of other writers' techniques, I'm read Boy's Life by Robert McCammon and..."

KW does not allow the author to change pricing as far as I know. They do sometimes feature and/or reduce pricing on select offerings. C.B.'s Broken Sky has been reduced in price, but I don't know if that was at his request or Amazon noticing the sequel was coming up, or or it had been live for X number of months, or a combination :-) I'm sure he'll chime in on that soon.

You can post the same 10% sample size that Amazon makes available free for all Kindle offerings on your blog.

Need to look at the faq's for more details and will post that link when I can.

M.L. wrote: "Another question. How do you market your KW books, meaning do you do 'free' days? Are their special sites, FB, Twitter, or anywhere else for KW Foreworld? ."

Finally found the reference, I had the pctg wrong:

"...you can promote your story by making available up to 20% of your work for free on your website or blog."

Source is here:
https://kindleworlds.amazon.com/faqs?...

Also, there are no sites besides Amazon specific to KW Foreworld that I know of. That's why we're here, lol!

There is an FB page for The Foreworld Saga that's about as well traveled as this forum. Well, less, actually :-(

We encourage promoting Foreworld on both Twitter and Facebook, best done by posting your reviews of Foreworld Canon and Foreworld KW books with images and links that stand out better than a simple tweet or FB post. And on any other sites and forums you frequent (ie, tell all your friends!). Links to this forum are especially appreciated.

Let's make the Foreworld great again!
Er, I should shut up about now...

Poking my head in here to mention that I queried about KU for Foreworld KW, and was told that it is something under consideration, but there's nothing concrete they can provide us at this time.

Thanks for the update, Mark. Sometimes it's good to know what goes on behind the curtain. If we can get KU turned on as an option for the Foreworld works, I think we'd see a lot more interest in the series as a whole. One of my readers even asked about "Audible" as well. That would also be a cool option... if it was available.

Related question: twice I've seen Broken Sky run as a 50% special on Amazon. Was that initiated by Subutai or by Amazon itself? From my viewpoint, anything that moves a few downloads is great. However, if there was some way to anticipate it, or coordinate it with another release, that would be even better. I'd certainly spam it up if I knew in advance of a special.

Amazon does its own thing whenever it feels like it. I typically don't hear about any of these sorts of price breaks, and I'm sure they're all predicated on some piece of code somewhere in a stack of machines somewhere.

Hmmm... you're starting to sound like Morpheus [shivers]. Thanks, I think.

I didn't know they did that. The only time I've heard of Amazon changing prices is when there is a lower price somewhere else. I think that's how authors who are not on KU can offer a book for free - they take the first one off KU, offer it elsewhere for free, and then it's free on Amazon (intro to the series type thing) as price-matching.

With KW I just assumed the ebooks are only published through Amazon and nowhere else (I feel silly asking about it since it is 'Kindle Worlds' and that's their reader), but just checking. That is right, though, right? . . . . No esoteric thing where KW is somehow someplace else as well. (Sorry. Corporate background gives rise to asking questions that seem really obvious.) :-)

Hah... just stopped by and there you are. No, as far as I know, KW is in a world of its own. No pub allowed anywhere outside of the KW ecosystem unless it is released by the original rights holders (in the case of Foreworld, that would be Subutai Corporation).

The price of each KW work is a function of its length. Also, FWIW, I've only noticed "Broken" marked down.

Thanks for the info!
Question on the font. If I want to use this font, is it in the cover creator on KW? It looks like I can't view the cover creator until I upload the MS (it isn't ready yet but just checking). Or do I find it somewhere else?

M.L. Roberts wrote: "Thanks for the info!
Question on the font. If I want to use this font, is it in the cover creator on KW? It looks like I can't view the cover creator until I upload the MS (it isn't ready yet but ..."

M.L. Roberts wrote: "Thanks for the info!
Question on the font. If I want to use this font, is it in the cover creator on KW? It looks like I can't view the cover creator until I upload the MS (it isn't ready yet but ..."
Actually you can access the Cover Creator once you set up your account, without uploading a book. You need to add a book, fake the title if you like, then it lets you start working with the Cover Creator. Don't know if that font is available, I see it was used with some early KW stories commissioned to get Foreworld off to a start on KW. Might be available if you look, though!

Thanks! I set up a draft cover & title.

1. What Mike says... you don't even have to enter a bogus title. Just be sure you hit the save button before you exit.

2. I think the font was created specifically for the Foreworld Saga covers and is a graphic, not a real font. We're not allowed to use that title in our own creations without permission from Subutai.

I faked it for the banner (shhh... don't tell) but I only made the letters you see. Not sure of the limits on using that font for your own work, but I would stay away from "Foreworld Saga" or "SideQuest" as per the Content Guidelines.

If your title is anagramical to "the Foreworld Saga," say, "the Sword Swallower" (hmmm... okay, no), then PM me and I will send them to you. That would be pretty cool, but use at your own risk...

Thanks for the info on fonts! I'll use the ones they already have in the system, that will work.