Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our September group read, A Man Lay Dead by Ngaio Marsh.

This thread is for people who may not have finished the book yet, so please don't post any spoilers here, but save them for the separate spoiler thread. Looking forward to a great discussion!

I enjoyed revisiting the first Alleyn book, which I first read years ago - interesting to see how similar he seems to Wimsey and Campion at this stage of his career. A policeman who seems like a gentleman amateur.

The initial set-up of this novel now seems very cliched - the murder mystery party in a country house which turns into a real murder.

I'm sure I've seen several episodes of TV series which revolve round a similar plot and also read other mysteries along the same lines, so now I'm wondering... did Marsh think up this storyline first, or had anyone else beaten her to it? Does anyone know?

I think lots of these series tend to do the house party mystery first - almost as though they want to get it out of the way.

I also enjoyed re-reading this a lot. I liked the characters and the puzzle was one that was fun to try and work out.

I read this a year or so ago. It must have been recent because I pulled it out of a bag intended for the library.

Will give it a quick re-read.

I think I was getting pretty frustrated with the house party gag because it seemed I was reading 3-4 of them starting with a house party in relatively short order. This, a Mrs. Bradley story, a Campion story. Maybe it was required that the first book be a house party.

That being said, I enjoyed all of them.

I know there were loads with house parties and I seem to have read a whole load of them over the last year or so! I think you're right that a lot of series start with them, Jan.

But I wasn't sure which was the first with a murder mystery party specifically, or when these came into fashion?

I've just spent a few minutes googling this question and haven't really got anywhere... I didn't find details of any other novels with this plot element.

But I did see from a Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_...) that what is said to be the first murder mystery "parlour game", Jury Box, was released in the US in 1935, a year after this book was published. So it looks as if Marsh might have been quite up-to-date with this story idea!

The Mysterious Affair at Styles was published around 1920 and has the map of the house, a closed group of people, etc. Not at all sure if that was the first, but it must be an early example? The Red House Mystery was 1922 I think and The Crime at Black Dudley 1929. A Man Lay Dead was much later, in the 1930's and Clouds of Witness 1926. The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins perhaps? I am not sure at all - I've tried searching online, but can't find anything definitive...

Thanks, Susan, but they aren't actually playing a murder mystery game in any of those, are they? I haven't read The Mysterious Affair at Styles but have read all the others mentioned.

I was trying to find out what the first one was where people are invited specifically to play a parlour game involving a fictional murder - which then turns out to be a real one!

Of course, it's also very interesting to think about how the country house murder genre evolved.

I recently read a British Library Crime Classics collection of short country house mysteries, Murder at the Manor: Country House Mysteries - though the picture on the cover is actually of Christchurch Mansion in Ipswich, where I live, which isn't exactly in the country!

I googled "origin murder game" and it says "jury box" was invented around 1935. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_....

But this book is from 1934.

A Speedy Death by Gladys Mitchell (Mrs. Bradley) was 1929, but I don't think there was a murder game involved in that one.

Judy wrote: though the picture on the cover is actually of Christchurch Mansion in Ipswich, where I live, which isn't exactly in the country! ."

But perhaps it was 60 or 70 years ago when some of these stories were written?

Ah, sorry Judy. I was thinking of the traditional setting, rather than the murder mystery game. I really couldn't find anything earlier than the first Poirot (you should read 'Styles'!), other than the Wilkie Collins.

Everyman wrote: "Judy wrote: though the picture on the cover is actually of Christchurch Mansion in Ipswich, where I live, which isn't exactly in the country! ."

But perhaps it was 60 or 70 years ago when some of these stories were written?"

Sorry, Everyman, I worded my previous comment confusingly - the mansion is actually right in the middle of the town, so I should have said it is nowhere near the countryside, and never was! But it is in a beautiful park.

Susan wrote: "Ah, sorry Judy. I was thinking of the traditional setting, rather than the murder mystery game. I really couldn't find anything earlier than the first Poirot (you should read 'Styles'!), other than the Wilkie Collins"

No worries, Susan. Interesting to hear that the first Poirot might be one of the earliest country house stories - there are some Sherlock Holmes ones in that kind of setting but they aren't full novels. I will read 'Styles' soon!

I just remembered there was a TV series starring Patrick Malahide as Alleyn, and I wondered if it included this first book.

I looked it up and I see there was an episode with the title 'A Man Lay Dead', but looks as if the plot has a lot of changes and has been moved to later in Alleyn's career. It would still be interesting to watch it, though...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

I found this interesting article about novels and the country house, although not necessarily mystery novels.

Susan wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

I found this interesting article about novels and the country house, although not necessarily mystery novels."

What a fascinating article, Susan. Many thanks for the link.

I've just read a piece Ngaio Marsh wrote about how she created the character of Alleyn and came up with the plot for A Man Lay Dead.

She says she thought of the character and the plot while staying in London in 1931, as the Murder Game was being played at many parties at the time.

This piece is published as the introduction for the omnibus edition Ngaio Marsh Collection A Man Lay Dead / Enter a Murderer / The Nursing Home Murder but not in single editions of A Man Lay Dead!

However, the introduction can be read online at the "browse inside" section on the Harper Collins Canada website - just scroll down through the contents to get to the introduction:

http://browseinside.harpercollins.ca/...

I was interested to see from Marsh's introduction that she says she was trying to make Alleyn seem more normal/less eccentric than other detectives such as Wimsey and Poirot, but she doesn't think she always succeeded in this in the early books.

I think he does seem a bit eccentric in this first book - for instance his trick with the jumping eyebrows, and the way he repeatedly claims to have "such a bad memory".

Also, the whole fact of him coming from an aristocratic background and choosing to be a policeman gives him a flavour of the amateur sleuths of the time even though he is a professional - showing the way forward to Inspector Lynley and others! I think in plot terms it was convenient for Marsh to have an aristocratic policeman, because he can still be invited into grand drawing rooms, etc.

Yes, Alleyn does not seem 'normal' to our eyes, but he is certainly not a Wimsey or Poirot. Anthony Horowitz is having all kinds of fun with the Golden Age writers in his new mystery, Magpie Murders, which I am reading at the moment. The fictional detective in that is obviously based on Poirot.

I have just started & am enjoying so far. Marsh's theatrical background (as in a lot of her novels) quite definitely shows!

Judy wrote: "I've just read a piece Ngaio Marsh wrote about how she created the character of Alleyn and came up with the plot for A Man Lay Dead.

She says she thought of the character and the plot while stayi..."

A very interesting read. I do think Marsh was a little in love with Allyn though!

Yes, I thought that too - she seems very ready to criticise Sayers for exactly the thing that she has been criticised for herself! But this is probably what gives both detectives part of their attraction for readers...

Maybe that's why Christie made Poirot older - so she wouldn't fall in love with him.

I'm a little in love with Poirot. Maybe more than a little in fact!

I don't recall smoking featuring so strongly in Marsh's other works.

I've finished this . I quite liked Alleyn ,it will be interesting to see how he progresses.

Yes, I certainly want to read on too - a good book.

My local libraries have loads of Marsh books available on Overdrive. I'm just starting the second Alleyn book, Enter a Murderer, and was surprised to see a cryptic note by the author at the start suggesting that the killer's identity will be revealed early on! I'll be interested to see how that works.

Judy wrote: "My local libraries have loads of Marsh books available on Overdrive. I'm just starting the second Alleyn book, Enter a Murderer, and was surprised to see a cryptic note by the author ..."

Possibly, if you're paying more attention that I was because I don't recall that. I bought a number of her books at a used book sale - 14 or something.

Judy wrote: "My local libraries have loads of Marsh books available on Overdrive. I'm just starting the second Alleyn book, Enter a Murderer, and was surprised to see a cryptic note by the author ..."

Our library also had lots of Ngaio Marsh on Overdrive e-audiobooks. But they changed the format of the audio they offer and all the Marsh disappeared - I was very disappointed as I was working my way through them at the time.

My library only has two on audio and two as e-books on Overdrive.

Jan C wrote: "My library only has two on audio and two as e-books on Overdrive."

I have access to Overdrive offerings from three different library systems (using accounts I have persuaded some non-reading relatives to open and let me use), and it's amazing how different the offerings from all three are. I find many books that only one of them has, but not always the same one. One library has much more modern fiction than mysteries; another is very good for mysteries but pretty dismal on modern translations of classics. And so on.

Everyman wrote: "Jan C wrote: "My library only has two on audio and two as e-books on Overdrive."

I have access to Overdrive offerings from three different library systems (using accounts I have persuaded some non..."

Perhaps I should enter my second library card. One of these that first one is going to learn that I no longer live there.

Everyman wrote: "I have access to Overdrive offerings from three different library systems (using accounts I have persuaded some non-reading relatives to open and let me use), and it's amazing how different the offerings from all three are..."

The library where I work uses OverDrive. The way it's set up, we have to select individual titles from the OverDrive catalog and pay for licenses for each one...so different libraries with different selectors are going to have wildly different offerings. We're part of a local consortium, where the card holders of all the member libraries have access to everyone's choices, but it's interesting to see how the different library systems specialize (or not).

My library has a lot of classic mystery fans, but we've got Ngaio Marsh in paperback, not ebook.

Lots of the Ngaio Marsh audiobooks are available on Hoopla, if you have access to that through your library.