The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

This is to discuss Septembers group read Dune by Frank Herbert.

Managed to make a dent in this today as I'm currently recuperating from having a tooth pulled. Has anyone read this before (possibly a stupid question)?

I've read it and I really like it, in fact so much so that i've read the whole series and several of the books written by his son as part of the Dune universe. If I can find my copy i'm going to re-read it as it's been ages.

I like stupid questions. I thought to be the only groupmember on this planet who did not read Dune or did even see the movie. But it got 10 votes so there are more of us! (Or is everybody re-reading??)
Now I'm looking forward to finally read this giant. I must have tried it several times before, because the first pages seemed very familiar to me. I also see why I must have quit it just as many times, it looks more fantasy then sf on first sight. A boy and a witch with a magic box - it doesn't take more for me to run away to any other book with a spaceship on the cover. This time however, I will finish it.

I'm 150 pages in and there are definitely some nice sci-fi elements, but it is also very much fantasy. I hear it's fairly slow going till the latter half, but I'm quite enjoying the pace. Not so fond of the constant inner monologues the characters keep having though. It's a sloppy way to develop thier motives.

I've read it half a dozen times over the years & really like it, although I recommend it as a stand-alone. I've never cared much for the rest of Herbert's books, especially the next one, Dune Messiah. Children of Dune was better, but I found God Emperor of Dune impenetrable. I never bothered to try any of the books after that.

I have a 4 star review from an audiobook edition which I read last year here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
The only spoiler is under a spoiler tag.

I'm almost 100 pages in, first time reading, and I'm loving it. I like the SF/F mix. I'm enjoying the pace as well.

I've only read it twice, which I think is not really enough. I've never felt compelled to finish the series, though. I read Dune Messiah (It's not as bad as Jim says) and Children of Dune. Children came to a very definite ending, so I didn't feel the need to read further.

It is a mix of fantasy and sci fi. I know some people are bugged by that, but I like it.

I think the thing with the Dune series is the further they go on the more political and that put's people off. Dune itself is a good mix of sci-fi and fantasy and I particulary like the Bene gesserits as a concept.

Jo wrote: "I think the thing with the Dune series is the further they go on the more political and that put's people off. Dune itself is a good mix of sci-fi and fantasy and I particulary like the Bene gesser..."

For me, a big draw in the first book is Paul Atredies (sp?). I think Frank Herbert was more interested in the Fremen than I was, and that's where we parted ways.

I had a similar experience with A Game of Thrones.

Leo wrote: "I like stupid questions. I thought to be the only groupmember on this planet who did not read Dune or did even see the movie. But it got 10 votes so there are more of us! (Or is everybody re-readin..."

Oh no I almost forgot about reading Dune. So I'm starting this weekend. Must be popular it's been unavailable for the whole summer at my library!

Phil wrote: "I had a similar experience with A Game of Thrones ..."

I know what you mean I only read the first and third books but they are such hard work that I gave up.

I was just checking how many books have been written by Frank Herbert's son in the Dune universe and there are 13 books. I guess it shows the enduring popularity of Dune.

I read this years ago, but find it hard to resist this month's selection. I was just thinking about how brilliant the first chapter is in terms of pulling in the reader into the world of Dune. It is tense (in a low key manner) filled with unknown aspects that just fills one's mind with questions. I think it would be hard for a person to not continue after reading it. Herbert is very creative in his world building from the very beginning. It all felt familiar, but even now it triggered my wish to continue. Onwards!

Like you said, Haaze, the world-building is really interesting. I think a lot of authors aim for world-building, but forget to make it part of the action, so you get lots of geology and sociology that doesn't really have much to do with the story.

I read Dune many many years ago, when it was still fairly new. I liked it but probably not as much as virtually everybody else who has ever read it, making it one of the most popular SF books ever. I also read the first sequel, but I don't remember it at all, except for the impression that it fell short of the mark.

Another book, a novella, by Frank Herbert that I thought was very good was Soul Catcher. It's not SF.

I may get around to reading Dune again, when and if its available at my library.

I started to lose interest, a little, after about 175 pages, but then as part 1 ended it pulled me right back in.

I first read Dune many years ago as a teen and it blew me away. The characters and the world building amazed me. I've read it a half dozen times since then and I still find it a great book.

I have to agree with Jim above, though. None of the sequels came close to being as good as the first book.

@ Michael

Agreed! I had the same experience. I quickly fell under Dune's spell when I read it in high school, but found the sequel lacking. I didn't even bother to visit the third one. Pretty cool that you have read it so many times. It is the spice causing the addiction, eh?

I've read and re-read Dune, and continue to find brilliance and subtlety in it. His treatment of mind control, the Bene Gesserit, and the monumental world building are nothing short of epic. Each time I read the book, I'm struck by his skill as a novelist, the way he deals with the rise of a messiah, the issues of power and the way power corrupts, and the way environment impacts the rise of a religion, without letting these complex themes interfere with the entertainment value of the novel. Sheer genius.
I'm not sure how many know that Dune was rejected by twelve publishers before it was finally put into print, because the topic was 'too controversial'.
I enjoyed Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, I think the first book is an absolute masterpiece and will undoubtedly read it again, the other two in the original trilogy, IMO are very good, but what else can they do but fall slightly short by comparison?
I still have Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune and God Emperor of Dune on my shelf untouched, as well as a number of Brian Herbert's follow-on novels.

Charles wrote: "...what else can they do but fall slightly short by comparison? "

Good point! The world building is one of the best in the genre. One of these days I will hopefully progress into the sequels.

Currently nearing the end of the second part. So far my interest in the book has been sort of up and down. I feel like some momentum was lost at the end of the first part, but it's now starting to pick up again.

I don't much like how it's written, but I have been very much enjoying some of the ideas. One of the most interesting aspects of the book so far is the concept of a planet nearly completely devoid of water other than that contained within its inhabitants. The culture of the fremen is shocking, but makes perfect sense given the habitat. The way they deal with the Dead, the need to wear the still suits in order to conserve every bit of moisture possible and ( minor spoilers - read on at your own risk) Jessica and Paul's need and struggle to adapt to such an environment after a lifetime of "water wealth" - I just find those elements really interesting.

Another good and recently introduced element is Paul's repeated visions of innevitable anarchy in his name, of which he has no idea how to prevent.

I think I generally enjoy the conceptual and political elements more. Action doesn't really do it for me in books. Provided there's good writing, interesting characters and/or ideas it doesn't really bother me if the pace of a book is slow. Unfortunately, I feel that Dune falls a bit short so far on the writing front and I keep getting frustrated with some of the authors habits. 

I am finally getting started! Though this sounds like Fantasy with all those strange names.

I will check in later.

The issue of how much Dune is fantasy versus science fiction was the cause of much debate shortly after it came out, and when the classic prizes came up for discussion.
IMO, it succeeded in blurring the line between fantasy and sf (or pushing the envelope if you prefer that description). It has probably affected my own taste in sf more than any other book.

Oh this the 2nd Frank Herbert work I have read, and I notice that he has a tendency to make his "villains" very cartoony and become very preachy with long introspection.

Sigh I am holding on though.

I agree, V. I remember thinking that the "baddies" came across as quite pantomimey when first introduced. It put me off to start with, but it's not quite so bad now I've adjusted to it.

Joel wrote: "I agree, V. I remember thinking that the "baddies" came across as quite pantomimey when first introduced. It put me off to start with, but it's not quite so bad now I've adjusted to it."

Not sure if anyone's seen the film but the director took this approach for the villains. Baron Harkonnen is something else. Worth looking up on YouTube.

I'm reading and listening to Dune and Scott Brick narrates. I noticed in Dune Mr. Herbert's villians are cartoony, women are second class citizens, and he seems to have a need to give us internal dialogues with every character!

I liked White Plague despite those problems but dealing with it in Dune is tiresome to say the least!

(I just posted this in another sci fi group discussion on Frank Herbert.)

Jo wrote: "Joel wrote: "I agree, V. I remember thinking that the "baddies" came across as quite pantomimey when first introduced. It put me off to start with, but it's not quite so bad now I've adjusted to it..."

On to YouTube after I finish the book.

Charles wrote: "I've read and re-read Dune, and continue to find brilliance and subtlety in it. His treatment of mind control, the Bene Gesserit, and the monumental world building are nothing short o..."

For some reason when discussing Jessica and the bene gesserit I thought of George R.R martin's A Song of Ice and Fire and his early sci fi books. He had alot of stories about mind control.

What's up with Jessica? Why didn't the Duke marry her? I don't buy the reason the Duke gave Paul. Maybe this is mind control, to keep her on top and her "bastard" as heir. Preventing him from marrying and making a legitimate heir?

(Yea I'm ASOIF fan) LOL

I looked on YouTube - not wanting to judge the entire film from a single clip, but it looked quite poor.

Has anyone seen the mini-series with William Hurt?

I think it is hard to watch if one expects Dune to materialize on the screen. If one tries hard to forget one's riveting 'Dune' reading experience it can be quite enjoyable. The comparison is awkward....

Haaze wrote: "I think it is hard to watch if one expects Dune to materialize on the screen. If one tries hard to forget one's riveting 'Dune' reading experience it can be quite enjoyable. The comparison is awkwa..."

I totally agree there are some good things in the film it's just not a great adaptation of the book. I've not seen the mini-series.

What is interesting is this documentary
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodor...
about how the director Jodorowsky planned to make the film.

Ah, yes. I saw a bit about this on a featurette about Geiger. Some of the art he did for the the film looked really good.

I've always liked the David Lynch film. It might be a generational thing. I read the book first, but I was still young when I saw the movie. Back in the '80s, I was grateful any time I got to see a space opera movie in color, so maybe I wasn't so picky.

Kids these days don't know what it's like to grow up with little to no sf on the tv. I mostly remember Star Trek TOS reruns and the occasional airing of the Star Wars trilogy.

I think you described my take on the Dune film too, Phil. I did see the mini series & liked it better in most ways.

One of the things that impressed me about Dune were the references to ecology, an entire character devoted to the idea, & the circular nature of the spice with all its ramifications & delicate balance. That was fairly unique in this genre at the time. I was more likely to read a book where we controlled the weather & created the ecology ourselves, if it was mentioned at all. It really struck a chord with my environmental thinking of the time - Silent Spring, Mother Earth News, & all that.

I just finished The Fifth Season, which I thought owed a few things to Dune.

Phil wrote: "I just finished The Fifth Season, which I thought owed a few things to Dune."

That's interesting to know, Phil - I have The Fifth Season queued up on my kindle, ready to go!

Finished Dune, now moving on to the appendices.

Joel wrote: "Finished Dune, now moving on to the appendices."

I'm at the part with paul talking about his sister Aliyah (sp). This is interesting!

I'm just halfway, and impressed by all the things that happen and fit together in one very, very rich story. I can understand that the author was able to make a series of many books out of this, although I'm not sure I'm going to read all of them.

I come to the conclusion that I have a love hate relationship with Mr. Herbert's writing and or I have a crush on Scott Brick!

That said if I could strip away Mr. Herbert's flaws ( inner dialogues, cartoony villians, no action or at least better description of action,) I would have loved Dune. I loved the idea but not execution of it, if that makes sense.

I am currently listening to EchopraxiaPeter Watts well this is another example, loved the ideas but not execution. Not sure if I would even finish this one its so damn tedious.

I did finish Dune and want to listen to the multi cast version maybe I will like it even more.

V wrote: "I am currently listening to EchopraxiaPeter Watts well this is another example, loved the ideas but not execution. Not sure if I would even finish this one its so damn tedious. "

I know exactly what you mean. I just finished Watts's Blindsight. Took me forever. I wished I could have liked it more.

Buck wrote: "V wrote: "I am currently listening to EchopraxiaPeter Watts well this is another example, loved the ideas but not execution. Not sure if I would even finish this one its so damn tedious. "

I know ..."

I cheated and skipped to the last 2 chapters :).

I got halfway through Blindsight & never really got into it. I found something else that I wanted to read quickly for a group & just never felt like picking this back up. It was intricate, yet pointless. I really didn't care for the addition of a vampire into an SF scenario. It wasn't badly done, but never seemed worth it, either. Anyway, after reading 3 or 4 other books, there was no sense fooling myself. It was just not good enough to draw me back. I gave it 2 stars simply because the writing & reading were mechanically very good.