Brilliant Buddy Reads discussion

The kingdom of Goredd: a world where humans and dragons share life with an uneasy balance, and those few who are both human and dragon must hide the truth. Seraphina is one of these, part girl, part dragon, who is reluctantly drawn into the politics of her world. When war breaks out between the dragons and humans, she must travel the lands to find those like herself—for she has an inexplicable connection to all of them, and together they will be able to fight the dragons in powerful, magical ways.

As Seraphina gathers this motley crew, she is pursued by humans who want to stop her. But the most terrifying is another half dragon, who can creep into people’s minds and take them over. Until now, Seraphina has kept her mind safe from intruders, but that also means she’s held back her own gift. It is time to make a choice: Cling to the safety of her old life, or embrace a powerful new destiny?

Up to Chapter One (pg 6)

I'm not very far at all, but just wanted to point out a few things.

I thought Father Fargle's forward was an interesting way to do an info dump recap without being so blatant in early chapters like a lot of novels do. But I had a few issues with the way Hartman did it.

For one, Fargle recaps Seraphina's whole mind garden and grotesques. Which is fine. But then later on he goes to say "Whether Imlann, in all his scaly, flaming horror, actually revealed himself to Seraphina and Prince Lucian on the road home or whether that episode is mere legend and embellishment is still a matter of scholarly debate" (pg x). Now how can that be subjective, but he can so clearly state facts about things that exist in Seraphina's mind? That made no sense to me whatsoever.

Then the forward ends with him saying "Those are the events I will examine here" but the prologue switches back to Serpahina's first person POV. If he is going to be examining and analyzing things, it would be third person or his first person.

Long story short, I started off loving the forward, but by the end I was entirely frustrated she did it at all. Sorry. Mini rant complete =)

This line from Orma I liked: "It is permissible to be the god of your own metaphors" (pg 5)

I got these little book sprouts this week off Amazon, so now I can mark exact lines in my hardcover novels and come back to them later instead of only tagging lines in my Kindle version. I am very excited to implement them for this buddy read =)

Up to Chapter 4

I understand your frustrations about the foreword, although I ended up giving the author more credit for coming up with an innovative way of having a recap at the beginning. You make an excellent point, though- how does he know so much about things going on inside Seraphina's head, but less about actual events that occurred? And yes, that last comment of the historian's was odd. It would make sense if the author brought him back in at the end to give some historical notes or context or something in an epilogue, but from a quick glance, it looks like the epilogue is still Seraphina's POV.
What has really bothered me though is that there has still been a lot of recapping going on in these first chapters, despite the foreword. Some of it includes new information on what has changed in the situation in the past three months, but not all of it. If the author was going to do a whole info dump at the beginning, at least make it count so those of us who just read the first book don't have to be bored in the opening chapters.

Which brings me to the crux of my thoughts so far: I feel like most of the intensity that took so long to build up in the first book has dropped away again. I find the time jump a bit strange, mostly in that nothing seems to have happened on hardly any front in that time. Dragons are fighting each other, but we aren't given enough info on that, IMO. Seraphina hasn't left on her trip to find any other half-dragons, but has barely seen Lucian or done all that much advising either. They're on the verge of war, but Seraphina's life seems to have gone on mostly as normal. I would have liked things better without the time jump. For one thing, we could have seen more of Glisselda working on becoming queen, making decisions on how to prepare Goredd. For another, much more of a sense of urgency could have been maintained. The details this author sometimes chooses to include sometimes baffle me- I'd rather know more about the details of the dragon war than plenty of little stuff that has been included (even including the prologue, which didn't seem to include much we didn't already know- although it was a cute scene with Orma, and he often has good dragon-trying-to-undertand-humans lines).

All the uses of the word "ard" are confusing me slightly...

Glisselda's opinion that "Your [Eskar's] loyalty to Orma is admirable, but you owe even more to your Ardmagar." is interesting. Duty over love. But I guess, being Queen, she probably would take that view.

I have a bad feeling about (view spoiler)[Orma's source of information on half-dragons might be. (hide spoiler)]

I'm very intrigued about a lot of the other half-dragons, but having so many of their avatars introduced at once during her trip to her mind garden was not, I think, necessarily the best way to do it. There wasn't enough information about each for me to be able to keep them apart.
If I was Phina, I feel like I would have had a hard time not periodically inducing visions to check up on the grotesques in the real world, especially since (view spoiler)[she stopped Master Smasher from killing himself somehow. (hide spoiler)] I would feel like when they were upset in the garden, maybe they were upset or in trouble in real life and there was something I needed to see. (Or maybe I just think that because it's a fantasy book- after all, I don't believe in fate or things happening for a reason, so maybe I wouldn't believe in "need to see" either.) Or maybe I would have wanted to ignore them and live my life before now, but definitely at this point, I'd be checking in with all of them if I were her, if only to start helping her find them.

Do you think Dame Okra has a point/really had a premonition that (view spoiler)[Seraphina bringing together more half-dragons will not end well? Or does she have ulterior motives? (hide spoiler)] I was a bit spoiled for this book by a review. Not in detail or anything, more on the direction it's heading, but more than I wanted to know... So I'll keep my thoughts on this to myself as they are quite colored by that.

I wonder if this General Laedi is (view spoiler)[being advised by a human or half-dragon (or even is one), if his tactics/strategies are bewildering the Ardmagar this much. They certainly seem like human tactics. That would be very hypocritical of the Old Ard, but I think they just really want power as much as an end of the peace. (hide spoiler)]

I feel like Lucian is being hypocritical at this point in (view spoiler)[still not wanting to tell Selda. Not when she seems to think the engagement is very much on. And when he's the one who supposedly never lies. (hide spoiler)]

I hadn't heard of book sprouts before, but I looked them up and they're adorable! I've also used those post-it flags/tabs before for school. Regardless, hope you find a good system. :) I love being able to mark good quotes on kindle books.

Up to Chapter 4

You weren't kidding about all the extra recapping that continued throughout the first few chapters. I even feel like some of the stuff Seraphina said was already covered in the intro too.

I can't remember which chapter it was, but half of it was spent describing the grotesques in her garden. No offense to them, but I really couldn't care that much less about them. My eyes almost glazed over by the time we got to the last one lol. And like you were saying, we not only had enough information to keep them apart, but each one has their own specific location in the garden, which we already kind of covered the first time around.

I agree that all the momentum she built up to at the end of the last one is completely gone. We are back to the same old trudging through the days we saw in the first one, and if the end of chapter three is any indication, we're going to be dealing a fair amount with the romance this time around too, which I'm not all that excited about. I think her being a dragon trainer or whatever she called it like Orma was could be interesting, but so far the strategy in the war feels very far removed.

I think, considering how dragons and especially halfbloods aren't loved all that well, plus all these extra powers they are starting to have, that trying to bring them all together is maybe not the best thing in the world to attempt. But I guess we'll see!

Up to Chapter 7

My reaction to chapters 4 and 5 would be BORED. The author included all these details about Ninys, but they didn't add up to a sense of atmosphere. I probably would have been more interested in small details if the author had been talking about a real place, but for my fantasy locations, I want descriptions that paint a picture of the forrest, so to speak, not the individual trees.
This book seems to be going in a different direction, ignoring the specifics of the war to concentrate on (view spoiler)[new half-dragon characters. I can't decide how I feel about that. The sentimental part of me hopes that Seraphina manages to collect some of them into an oddball family, improving their individual lives in the process, but I don't know if it's realistic. (It makes sense why the grotesques were all introduced, since we're probably going to end up meeting a lot of them in Seraphina's real life, but it was still horribly handled.)
I'm a little disappointed that there won't be more lessons between Seraphina and the Ardmagar because that definitely could have been an interesting element. However, we would have stayed largely one remove from the war, since it would have been unrealistic to have Seraphina play a major role in war strategy and such, as her skills and training are in totally different areas. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter six was far more interesting, but SERIOUSLY? the (view spoiler)[half-dragon who lives a hermetic existence with no contact with people lived so close to the city that Abdo could see her soul light from there? When there was this whole big forrest for her to lose herself in? Well, that's convenient and fairly ridiculous, even if she did live in that city as a child and was kicked out from there.
I can't decide if it's wonderful or cruel for them to be trying to bring Blanche into society. It's a very interesting cast of characters Seraphina's trying to bring together with all sorts of baggage. I'm starting to see how bringing together a large group of people from the edges of society may be difficult and present all sorts of issues. You also make a great point about them putting targets on their backs the more of them they get together (although in some circumstances they might be safer as a group protected by the Goreddi monarchy) and the volatility of combining all their powers. (hide spoiler)]

I'm confused about the geography a bit, I don't feel that has been overly clear because (view spoiler)[I thought they were going east, but then it seemed like they mentioned the monastery where Seraphina met Od Fredricka was almost in Samsam, which is west? (hide spoiler)] I wish they had put more cities and landmarks on the map at the beginning.

I absolutely adore Abdo- his comments are on point- but I miss Lars some.

I thought Seraphina's self-reflection after (view spoiler)[ her meeting with Od Fredricka was well done. I really liked this paragraph: "I had framed my quest, this gathering of ityasaari, as an act of compassion, but it wasn't, really. Not if I set myself apart, as some hero to save them. It was impossible to see someone else's pain from that distance. Maybe I hadn't wanted to see it. Maybe I'd wanted them to see mine, or to reflect and affirm it like a mirror." (pg. 118 on kindle edition). I can relate to both sides of this, especially in terms of my attempts at online support groups for "spoonies"/people with CFS. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter Seven

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was boring! I was a little worried when you posted that I was going to be really far behind between my lack of interest in reading and all the personal stuff going on right now, so glad I'm not off track =)

I was really, really hoping for some serious dragon action in this companion novel. They are at war after all! But I'm honestly starting to wonder if the author has even written an action sequence in her life and thus is sticking with the mundane.

Not that the characters aren't necessary interesting, but whyyyyyyy? We are literally just trudging along in the mud now slowly introducing new characters. What gives?

I totally agree that if she's going to douse us in minute details, at least paint a picture of the setting. Though I admit my eyes have started to glaze over lately while reading it, I couldn't begin to describe these places they are traveling through. And no offense to the grotesques, but I don't find their meet cutes all that interesting (except maybe the plague dude. The beak thing was kind of funny and I could relate to his curiosity getting the better of him).

I like the point you make about Blanche. A bit like the moral delimma of (view spoiler)[feral children, no? Do you want to introduce them into society so that they might have a chance at a 'normal' life, or do you simply observe without interferring, as interferring changes the entire construct that they live within? (hide spoiler)].

I wish I could say I could help you make sense of the geography, but I'm pretty terrible about paying attention to those types of details in high fantasy worlds (even my own lol @.@). To me, it's all been just a bunch of mosey around in one direction or another.

I agree that right now Abdo is probably the saving grace of the novel. And at least the scouring the kindgom for halfbloods means (view spoiler)[we don't have to put up with a whole bunch more awkward romantic entanglement between Seph and Keggs when it seems like he's got to be marrying his cousin - yuck - just about any day now. (hide spoiler)]

Nice quote! Hadn't pondered that one much but definitely see your point. Good find! The one I highlighted in this section was:

"And we Ninysh are generally more relaxed about the Saints, too," he said, smiling apologetically. "We've needed less of their help. It's another lucky accident of history, a privilege afforded by peace." (Loc 1074 on my Kindle edition)

I thought that was a little interesting touch of social commentary on the author's part.

I will say that while I'm found the story a bit of a drag so far, Hartmann still has some beautiful prose in here. I just wish it was mixed in with more dragons kicking butt =)

That is an interesting quote- and I do wonder if societies with more struggles and more death are usually more traditionally/formally religious.

It is still well written, even if the beginning dragged- but it has improved some!


Up to Chapter 11

Well, the plot certainly thickens! This is much more interesting, IMO. Still not (view spoiler)[dragons fighting or major action sequences, but the whole mind-control issue raises some interesting questions and is in line with some of the themes of the two books, not to mention somewhat creepy. (hide spoiler)]

I can't imagine that (view spoiler)[approaching Gianni Patto would have gone well, even if it hadn't been for Jannoula. Seraphina seemed majorly over confident there ("Tiny Tom seemed like a bird in the hand.") A completely uncivilized, incredibly strong, not-to-bright-seeming mountain man might be a bit dangerous under any circumstances. (hide spoiler)]

I thought the author did a really good job of making it understandable how and why (view spoiler)[Seraphina came to trust Jannoula and give her so much access to her mind. The audiobook narrator made Jannoula's voice very guileless and almost childlike, which I thought was a nice touch. Jannoula is a scary, enigmatic villain, and I give the author props for her development so far.
I enjoyed the recounting of the whole original Jannoula episode as much as I have liked any chapter in these books. Phina must have been devastated afterward- I give her great credit for how she has recovered and kept her willingness to reach out and trust. (hide spoiler)]

Oh, I just figured out why Nedouard is a kleptomaniac- because he's like a dragon, stealing items for his hoard. That makes a lot of sense, but could have been made more clear. I wonder if any of the other half-dragons have dragon-like personality traits. So far, they seem pretty human to me, but maybe Dame Okra's prickliness and who knows with (view spoiler)[Jannoula (hide spoiler)]. Interesting that Od Fredricka also seems to have great artistic skill like Phina and Blanche and Lars great skill and creativity with mechanical devices.

I'm really curious who (view spoiler)[Orma's source on half-dragons is now. I thought it was Jannoula (that was how I had been somewhat spoiled- that she was a major villain in this book), but after learning all the details of her and Phina's history, it seems unlikely that Orma could be won over by her. Unless she can control saarantrai, I guess. Even then, it seems she's spending a lot of time in other half-dragons' minds, so I'm not sure she'd have time or what the point of influencing Orma would be. (hide spoiler)]

What do you think is the basis of our personalities? Do we start off with an innate predisposition or is it all nurture/memories? I'm pretty sure I think that we have at least some personality from birth, not dependent on genetics, but rather our spirit. (My mom, a pediatrician, says she finds babies to have definite personalities that they usually keep growing up.) Obviously that base personality can change based on our experiences and the effects of the world on us.
Thus, I don't know if I think (view spoiler)[Jannoula could so easily switch Dame Okra's personality. Even if her struggles changed her and Jannoula was able to erase those memories or something, the force of habit would be hard to overcome. But the mind is an incredibly complex thing, so I can accept it as a fantasy premise. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter Eleven

I'm still kind of on the fence about the plot. While we at least seem to have some direction now with the introduction of (view spoiler)[Jannoula (hide spoiler)], I felt it was crazy that the introduction was a half an hour of reading backstory. Though I do agree with you that the author did a very good job with the introduction. Just thought it could have been condensed some. My mind started to wander a bit. I also feel like if (view spoiler)[Jannoula had such an important role with the mind garden, and with controlling Seraphina's mind there for a while, that we would have heard more about her in the first novel. Did we? I don't remember any mention of her before, but maybe it was one of the things that I missed. (hide spoiler)] The author has also failed to hook me still. The plot is slow, a bit tangential, and the main plot we're following just isn't all that interesting to me so far.

Yeah, I think Seraphina has annoyed me a little with her overconfidence. I noted it not particularly in the scene you pointed out but in this one:

'It had never occurred to me, not once, that in seeking out the ityasaari there might be a price to pay beyond the time, effort, and resources finding them.'

To which I noted 'Seriously?' She did not think that, just maybe, it was going to be a little harder than sunshine and rainbows?

Good catch with Nedouard! Had not even thought of that, but it makes total sense.

After the history we got, I also don't think (view spoiler)[Orma would have anything to do with Jannoula. If anything, I think he would be writing Seraphina to get to work on locking her back up in an even bigger, even stronger prison in someone's mind (hide spoiler)].

I think, like everything else, it's a bit of nature/nurture. I think everyone's personalty is a bit predisposition, but how we react with our surroundings and with other people, and how we are raised - and the personalities of the people we spend the most time with - help shape our personalty as it develops.

I agree. Dame Okra seems like such a strong willed, no nonsense person. I would have thought out of all of them, (view spoiler)[Jannoula would have had the most difficulty overtaking her mind and controlling her. I also don't think she could simply flick a switch and change Okra's personality, unless Okra had really been willing. But given what we've seen of her so far, I find that kind of doubtful (hide spoiler)].

Elise wrote: "Up to Chapter Eleven

I'm still kind of on the fence about the plot. While we at least seem to have some direction now with the introduction of [spoilers removed], I felt it was crazy that the intr..."

Yes, there were some mentions of (view spoiler)[Jannoula in the first book (there was a description of the wee cottage and it was mentioned it was used to lock up Jannoula, and when Abdo starts showing he is aware of Seraphina and becomes sentient in her mind garden, it's mentioned that she's very afraid because of her past experiences with Jannoula trying to take over her mind), but I had a similar thought that if she had played such a crucial role in Seraphina's life, as they were extremely close for a time, she should have been mentioned more. I had figured because of the references in the first book that Jannoula would play some role in this book, but I didn't see it revolving largely around her until I read that review. (hide spoiler)]

That quote does really show Seraphina's naiveté, at least when it comes to certain things, like the other ityasaari. There is usually a price of some kind to be paid for almost anything worthwhile, in my experience. Yes, due to (view spoiler)[Jannoula, the cost so far is higher than might have been expected, but as you saw first, the views of Southlanders towards half-dragons was going to make it difficult. (hide spoiler)] And thinking that (view spoiler)[absolutely every one she found would be convinced to join her? (hide spoiler)] That's some seriously unrealistic expectations.

I agree about Dame Okra- I also wonder how (view spoiler)[Jannoula got to her. Hopefully that will be explained because otherwise it definitely seems out of character. Unless... maybe because Dame Okra doesn't have the same mental gifts as Abdo or Seraphina, she wasn't really able to fight back? Regardless, Jannoula's abilities stretch belief a bit, for all that this is fantasy. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter 18

And... we've lost all momentum again, if we had ever really gained any. I really don't have much to comment on.

I am (view spoiler)[worried about Abdo, since he's one of the reasons I'm keeping reading. And a bit about Orma, since I really like him as a character too and obviously don't want him to be excised. (hide spoiler)]

We also have the looming threat of (view spoiler)[the return of Kiggs to the story. I can't imagine that away from the palace and Selda, he and Phina will be able to restrain themselves. Something will happen and there will be regret and hurt and... I do not like this situation at all. (hide spoiler)]

Oh, actually, looking back over, there were a few interesting developments in this section, hidden in all the boring stuff:
(view spoiler)[Josef having staged a coup and taken the throne. I wonder what Jannoula's part in all of this and her goal are.
Orma deciding the saints were all half-dragons. Very interesting. I can't believe he had Seraphina try to link her minds with other ityasaari to create the unseen wall/net thing based on the fact that a saint could supposedly do it... But it did work, which is strong support of his theory, I guess. (hide spoiler)]

If you decide you want to DNF this one, I won't blame you at all. Just let me know and I'll probably try to finish it quickly.

Had some more thoughts about Chapters 11-17:

I thought it was really interesting how the dragons' inherent skin color is dark. Interesting bit of social commentary on the part of the author, possibly referring to how humanity originated in Africa in our world.

Did Seraphina seem stupider in this section than usual? I mean, (view spoiler)[not realizing that Jannoula had taken over Abdo... that seemed like a stretch for anyone intelligent. We've commented on her naiveté so far and overconfidence, but she usually seems faster on the uptake than that. (hide spoiler)]

I really have a hard time imagining (view spoiler)[a transgender woman like Camba in this world. From the beginning, the feel of the world has been maybe 1500s or 1600s to me, if I had to give it a date. It's seemed somewhat more advanced as we've gone along or maybe just more unique and unlike any time period in our world's history. But if this world is anything like our past, women must have so many fewer rights than men. It's not that I can't imagine a society accepting of transgender people, and I can certainly see transgender men existing. I just can't imagine someone giving up all the freedoms, rights, and privileges being born male would have given you, even if that person was inherently female. (hide spoiler)]

I'm surprised that none of the Porphyrian ityasaari (view spoiler)[have spouses or significant others. It makes sense that the Southlander ones have to hide and are generally reviled, but I'm amazed that not one of the accepted Porphyrian ones do. Well, I guess Lars does, or at least did (that was so sad, what Jannoula made him do!). The ityasaari probably can't have children, but they could adopt- do none of them want a family? I was glad to see that at least Camba's family had stuck by her throughout everything. (hide spoiler)]

I am almost caught up, I swear! I haven't read your posts yet because I don't want to spoil anything, but I'm almost done with 17. Hoping to post tonight or tomorrow =)

Elise wrote: "I am almost caught up, I swear! I haven't read your posts yet because I don't want to spoil anything, but I'm almost done with 17. Hoping to post tonight or tomorrow =)"

No worries!

Up to Chapter Eighteen (finally!)

I thought it was interesting before how Seraphina did not realize it would cause trouble to bring the ityasaari together. But then in chapter eighteen she has this thought:

'If Earl Josef was at the Erlmyt, if he learned that the Librarian was my fellow half-dragon... I hardly dared contemplate the trouble that might cause.' (Loc 2676)

Just the fact that people are half-dragon is a big deal, so that quote from the previous section is still rubbing me wrong, and goes back to what you were saying about her seeming stupider than usual.

I liked Abdo's mind speak rib at her later down the road when he said (view spoiler)['Not everything she does is about you. She's been visiting Ingar for years. They must have their own things to talk about' (Loc 3190) (hide spoiler)]. It does kind of feel like Seraphina is taking on this grand adventure of bringing together her grotesques from her garden. And she does tend to act like everything (view spoiler)[Jannoula does is about her (hide spoiler)].

The part that really pissed me off was when Seraphina asked poor ole Abdo to (view spoiler)[let Jannoula take over him so that Seraphina could talk to her. She even admits 'I realized as I spoke the words that this was a terrible idea, but I was itching to pick a fight with Jannoula myself' (Loc 3692). (hide spoiler)] What a b word! Hasn't Abdo been through enough already? Her likability plummeted through the floor after that one.

You have some great observations about the half-dragons. I hadn't thought about it, but it really doesn't make much sense (view spoiler)[that all of them have nothing to tie them to where they are and that they almost all follow her without any sort of persuasion needed. (hide spoiler)]

The whole (view spoiler)[picking your pronoun/gender out of like fourteen different ones was a little much for me. I realize it's probably a bit of social commentary, but it definitely feels out of place in the story. And I agree on the transgender point too, especially for a half-dragon who is already regarded below the social norm and carrying a stigma and has to live as if they are worse than the humans because they are "unnatural". (hide spoiler)]

I am also not looking forward to the return of (view spoiler)[Kiggs. Seraphina's conversations with the queen have already been so awkward with guilty everytime Seraphina misinterprets, but you something she says, but you just know that as selfish as Seraphina's shown herself to be lately that it isn't going to matter at all once their reunite. Ugh. (hide spoiler)]

Though it certainly hasn't been my favorite, I hate to DNF a book. I'm gonna keep plowing along =) I want to know where the heck (view spoiler)[Orma is!!!! (hide spoiler)] He's barely played a role at all in this story =(

Just FYI, I need to finish this book by next Friday because I leave for vacation (plus I promised to fulfill a goal with this book for my team challenge by then). So I'm going to pick up my pace a little bit.


Yeah, in addition to what we've also discussed, Seraphina has also seemed self-absorbed in this book. Not necessarily focused on the impact on others or the bigger picture. I liked Abdo calling her on it as well, even if it was only on one tiny aspect. Even (view spoiler)[her wanting Abdo to let Jannoula through so Phina could take out her anger on the source of her problems was born of self-centeredness I think. I didn't blame her for this quite as much as you did, though, in that she realized right away her mistake, and I can understand needing to vent anger. (hide spoiler)]

Exactly- Seraphina is a half-dragon, but she has a job she loves and other things tying her to Lavondaville. The (view spoiler)[others had some minor things- Nedouard had his work with the sick, Blanche her machines, etc. But not as major of ties as I feel some of them should have had, even if others were more outcasts. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, definitely some more social commentary there. Choosing your pronoun out of a number of options could have been interesting concept, and I occasionally think we view gender as too black or white, but I agree that I'm not sure if it belonged here as it seemed jarring with the setting.


Up to Chapter 24

Well, the whole (view spoiler)[Seraphina and Kiggs interaction wasn't as bad as I expected in that they managed to restrain themselves. But with them mostly being apart and then not able to be together in this book, I'm forgetting why I liked them as a couple. I wish Kiggs had told Selda before he came to see Phina so we could have seen their romance develop some. At this point, guilt seems to be strangling their budding relationship. (hide spoiler)]

I'm confused about (view spoiler)[what Phina's garden shrinking is supposed to mean. If it's symbolic, I'm not really understanding it, unless it's just meant to indicate that she's actually creating a life for herself in the real world and not just living inside her head all the time. I'm predicting that it's going to turn out to be very convenient when these great powers Pende and others tell her she has manifest, but I am curious about what form they will take. (hide spoiler)]

I think Seraphina is showing her stupidity and overconfidence again in (view spoiler)[deciding to go help rescue Orma. What is she going to be able to contribute in a conflict of dragons versus dragons? She'll just be a liability. Yes, those undeveloped powers I mentioned will probably come into play, but Seraphina has no way of knowing they exist or will show themselves. Not that I don't understand her desire to go, I really do- I would want to be there as well. But, again, this seems self-centered. Sometimes having to sit back and wait is harder than taking action, but I think she should be working with Camba to see if she can learn to unhook people. That would be how she could contribute the most. Especially since the ityasaari in Goredd are going to need someone to unhook them as well. Hopefully Orma's rescue will finally bring some excitement and action, though. (hide spoiler)]

I do feel bad for Seraphina that she found (view spoiler)[this harmonious and companionable family of sorts of ityasaari, but she can't really be a part of it. It's always really hard to be on the outside looking in, especially since this is what she's always wanted. She planned to create a group with herself at the center, but it already exists, and she'll always be largely an outsider. (hide spoiler)]

I had a fairly positive view of Porphyry- it was at least a very interesting fictional society to consider with its inclusivity and ginormous library- until (view spoiler)[they were willing to sell their cooperation to the Ardmagar, and basically sell their ityasaari as well. That seemed in conflict with the principles the society had shown up until then, and yet in keeping with the basis of its roots in trade. Basically, I find Porphyry a bit inconsistent. (hide spoiler)]

Oh- but I don't want you to feel rushed! Take your time, and I'll do my best to discuss with you while I'm traveling :)

I'm also wondering if (view spoiler)[it was the censors who imprisoned Jannoula. That could potentially explain her involvement with the coup in Sansam- she's trying to start a human/dragon war, hoping to punish the dragons for what they did to her. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter 30

You're right- this author couldn't write real actions scenes if her life depended on it. I'm guessing that she's not very good at them from the small bits of action we've gotten (or doesn't like writing them, so doesn't practice them, resulting in her not being good at them)- she seems to know it and not even try. I don't know if that's better or worse. Actually, I do- it's worse, IMO. I'd rather have a subpar action scene than none at all. We get (view spoiler)[dragons fighting in theory in Lab 4, but don't get to actually witness any of it, except one small fight between quigs and a dragon. I feel fairly cheated again.
I also wish there were more descriptions of dragons in their natural form. Reading about this book on wikipedia, is seems it was originally going to be comics. The author decided to have the dragons have human shapes they could turn into to make them easier to draw. I wonder if that's a big part of the problem- the author just can't picture the dragons in their original forms fully enough to describe them doing something as complex as fighting.
I can't imagine the way things are going to wrap up will be much different, with almost all action off screen. So much for it being a war book. I'm also predicting an ending that is just too unrealistically sweet with everyone largely working out their differences, but we'll see when we come to it. (hide spoiler)]

The (view spoiler)[level of technology the dragons and quigs were using was another detail that jarred me out of the story. I would have been fine with some of it- we know they're much more technologically advanced than the humans of the time and have managed to keep that part of their societies separate, but a NUCLEAR REACTOR?? That's crazy advanced. And I don't know much about nuclear energy, but I'm guessing having beings that blast fire around the reactor and beings that emit sparks running and doing the maintenance on it would probably be a bad plan? (Plus, the quigutl description of it was so awful that it took me quite awhile afterwards to catch on to what was meant. I don't know why we needed the technical details anyway beyond them using a generator- a regular one of which I could have handled.) And a computer? (Searching paper files would have served the story just as well I think.)
Unless the dragons having this technology is going to come into play later in the story somehow, I don't know why we couldn't have left the technology at thniks and some electricity. (hide spoiler)]

I had forgotten all about Not sure how Seraphina is going to stop her, unless she's going to fight her mind to mind. She pities her too much at this point to kill her (plus, the author's aversion to action would prevent that from being the solution). I would not have the same qualms, although I would worry about what would happen to those she is controlling if she died. But Nedouard describes her as a sociopath, she has caused so much death and destruction and pain on a global scale already, she likes to literally take over people's minds... I can't see her being redeemable or even reasonable. So if assured that the ityasaari under her control would recover if she died and unless another option quickly presented itself, I would probably try to kill her if I were Seraphina. Although there would be fall out to consider, like with Samsam.
Oh, and you think that maybe, just maybe, Jannoula told Glisselda about Kiggs and Seraphina? I knew that not telling Selda would come back to bite them big time (although maybe not quite this big). However, I thought Glisselda was smart enough to realize that just because she's angy with Kiggs and Seraphina and doesn't feel she can trust them anymore, that still doesn't mean she should trust Jannoula or let her free in the city. I don't understand that extra step in Selda's reasoning because like Kiggs says, she's savvy. Hopefully it will be explained in a way that's in line with Selda's character.

Up to Chapter 24

Sorry I've fallen behind. I'm doing my best to go as fast as I can but I lacked the motivation a lot this weekend (getting Torch Against the Night did not help matters lol)

Seraphina and Keggs's interaction was actually (view spoiler)[kind of a let down. I agree that now I'm not even sure why I liked them in the first place. Now their relationship just revolves around the queen. And while I'm glad they weren't going around behind her back, now it seems like there is no point to them at all! So basically exactly what you said. Should have been out in the open by now in order to move forward. (hide spoiler)]

Speaking of things not moving forward, I think that's generally how I feel about this novel. The plot is kind of a mess. We've been tracking down the half dragons instead of helping with the war efforts, and now we're (view spoiler)[shifting gears again to get Orma and hopefully help him before they wipe his mind. (hide spoiler)] I'm honestly not sure what Hartman's point to this story was now.

I'm thinking along the same lines regarding her mind garden. As she (view spoiler)[interacts in the real world, it shrinks in her mind. Imaginary turns real. I think - if she interacts with them all in real life - maybe her mind garden will disappear. But I'm still not satisfied which what the author's said so far about tending to her mind garden versus have the memories from her mother. She barely tends to her garden at all anymore, and yet she hasn't gone around passing out anymore. Seems like a large plot gap that Hartman mentioned between characters once but never actually explained (hide spoiler)].

Please don't apologize! Read at your own pace. I just always get a little stressed before going on trips, so I want to have finished reading this to reduce the amount on my plate. Not that I'm not enjoying reading it with you, and I will continue to discuss for as long as it takes for you to finish it. Hope you're really enjoying A Torch Against the Night!!!

I don't want to give anything away, but I will say that things come together and the point of the story becomes more clear before chapter 30. Hartman did have an idea of where she was going, it seems, but like with the first book, it took FOREVER to get there.

Yeah, I'm confused about that aspect of her mind garden as well. (view spoiler)[Was it ever really necessary to stop the visions? It seems so, but maybe the tending of it was never necessary? If the tending was necessary, why isn't it anymore? I'm also surprised she hasn't started having visions of Pende and Gianni Patto again now that they are no longer in her mind garden/connected to her. Definitely some plot holes there if those questions aren't answered. (hide spoiler)]

I forgot to add one thought- I found this quote interesting in Chapter 26:
"If you followed logic all the way back to its origin, did you inevitably end up at a point of illogic, and article of faith? Even an indisputable fact must be chosen as the place to start reasoning, given weight by a mind that believed in its worth." (72%)
This seemed like kind of the culmination of the themes of logic and faith in the book. I admit that I'm not quite enough of a philosopher to be able to grasp it entirely, but it does make even my more scientific mind ponder. After all, it's in coming up with a hypothesis to test where I feel the real genius of science often lies, which combines a leap of faith with logic. I do think it is frequently impossible to completely, 100% divorce belief from logic, as hard as we may try to be impartial.


Up to Chapter 34

Well, (view spoiler)[this is not looking so good. I really thought Phina and Kiggs could have gone in with more of a plan; they really seemed to be flying by the seat of their pants and not in a good way.

What is going on with Selda? It seems my assumptions about how Jannoula manipulated her were wrong because she hasn't come across as mad at Phina, more like Jannoula is holding something over her. I've even wondered if Selda is in love with Phina herself, given how Jannoula phrased things at that breakfast and Selda's reaction.

Really, I'm kind of confused on several fronts. I don't understand what Kiggs is doing, I don't understand how Jannoula's powers seem to have advanced- it's like she has constant control of many of the ityasaari at the same time now or like they're in a trance. Is Jannoula supposed to have wiped Ingar's memory? I don't understand how his mind pearl works exactly or how Jannoula's powers over the ityasaari now work- such as why they work on some differently than others. (hide spoiler)] This whole section has felt somewhat vague, rushed, and cobbled together.

Finished

Basically, I thought this ending was a huge mess. I like (view spoiler)[my fantasy to have definite rules and a well developed magic system describing how things work. Here, stuff was happening all over the place with no explanation. Things were framed too metaphorically instead of using actual descriptions. I think everything that happens with Seraphina and her powers at the end- exiting her mind and... I don't even know how to describe it- was supposed to be profound somehow, but that's certainly not how I felt. I was just confused and overwhelmed with all the new elements the author was throwing at us.

Regarding Pandowdy, it wasn't quite a deus ex machina, because the author had included him as part of her mind garden from the very beginning, but I was disappointed that he basically came in and saved the day completely. Did Seraphina and Abdo really end up doing much at all in the grand scheme of things of defeating Jannoula? It seemed a bit like cheating.

Speaking of, so what was Pandowdy doing with Jannoula at the end? Taking her to "study being a saint"? As if she needed any more knowledge or power. If this was a euphemism (like making her live in the swamps? yeah, that would help things), I didn't get it. She needed to die, personally. She is way too powerful considering all she wants is death and destruction for anyone and everyone. And most importantly, she showed absolutely no signs of being redeemable. I understand that Seraphina felt guilty for possibly exacerbating Jannoula's situation previously (although I don't think Phina had anything to feel guilty for), but that's no reason to allow Jannoula to live.

The rest of the ending was so melancholy! Seraphina is left basically all alone.
Selda and Kiggs get married- WHAT?!? This was upsetting. First off, they're cousins and repeatedly refer to each other as "like my brother/sister". Secondly, now Seraphina has no hope of ever coming in anything but third place to Kiggs after Goredd and Selda. The messed up relationship situation the three of them have been in this whole book continues indefinitely, just with Selda knowing about it. Not healthy. Unless, was it supposed to be like a polyamorous relationship? Because I was a bit confused by Seraphina's reaction to Selda's kiss. I personally can't fathom non-monagamous relationships, but I can actually see that potentially working out better than Phina and Kiggs trying to be together while Kiggs is married to Selda. Regardless, despite the fact that I had largely lost interest in Phina and Kiggs as a couple, I was very disappointed by this turn of events. It felt like we were strung along for two very long books for a happy romantic ending that didn't happen.
Then there's all the other ityasaari leaving. I was sad that NONE of the others chose to stay in Goredd (except Lars, I'll get to him in a minute). It seemed like a very unsatisfying ending for Abdo as well, personally (except for him learning to speak with his mind- I was so upset about his hand after realizing that meant he couldn't use sign language to talk to non-ityasaari anymore). And Lars- despite the huge age difference between him and Viridius, I wanted them to make up; plus, he just seemed to have lost all of his wonderful personality. Basically, none of the characters got the endings I thought they deserved.
And Orma. Poor Orma. That last scene was heartbreaking. What I don't understand is why he would have made the trigger for his mind pearl difficult. Why not just have seeing Seraphina be the trigger? That seemed like a definite plot hole, if the author wanted to leave things unsatisfyingly and sorrowfully open ended.
It took so long for us to get to this point, and I am extremely disappointed. There weren't loose ends exactly, just a lot of things that felt unfinished. Plus, I guess I'm just a happy endings sort of person. (hide spoiler)]

Overall, this sequel was nothing like I hoped it would be. Occasionally pretty prose and thought provoking passages are about all I can say in its favor. Other good qualities in the first book seemed lacking in this one, and it certainly didn't live up to the potential the first book suggested might be developed here.

Up to Chapter 31

Sorry again for falling so far behind. I'm not gonna lie, I'm starting to seriously struggle with this one. But I will finish it, dang it! (BTW, have a fabulous trip!) =)

I think I finally see where the plot might be going after Keggs tells her the story of the inside-out house. But it's been kind of a mess getting there. And the fact that (view spoiler)[Seraphina just up and decides she's going to go to the castle to try to work it out with the queen after the queen banishes Keggs just made me roll my eyes and think 'Here goes Seraphina again, making everything about her and not thinking through anything at all'. Especially when she says all Jannoula has wanted all along is for Seraphina to join her, so that's why she's been doing everything she's done so far. (hide spoiler)] She's starting to get old as a main character. I hate to say it, but it seems like every few chapters now she does something that really makes me like her a little less.

I have also noticed a lack of description with this novel. I know you mentioned it earlier with the detail for the places they explore. But in chapter twenty-six when Seraphina is working with the quigutls, I realized for the first time that I really don't have a mental image for what they look like at all! And they've come up quite a bit since the start of the first novel. I also noticed that I haven't been as impressed with the prose in this novel. Everything feels a bit disjointed, like Hartman was rushed to write it, since the start. Although I do like the quote you picked out about logic. I think sometimes belief drives logic, i.e. we look to explore the facts behind things we are interested in/things we believe (from a scientific standpoint, I'm thinking recently with the discoveries they have made with the multiverse, and how they think that our universe is a "patch" in the multiverse, which they found based on scientists wanting to get a better understanding of the singularity of the start of the Big Bang. I.E., since they believed the Big Bang to be true, they went in search for the logical explanation for it to have occurred).

I also noticed around Chapter 27 that - like you - the use of the word 'ard' and thus its meaning has been confusing.

A few other notes:

The "action" scene in chapter Twenty-Seven was just ridiculous, again suggesting Hartman doesn't have much experience there.

Seraphina and Keggs in the last chapter just seemed to come out of the blue after what happened last time they were together. Was not a big fan of how that whole scene just went down.

I did like this line: "It's that the more hurt she causes, the less I want to save her." (Loc 5891). I've experienced that myself a few times in my life. How you want to think the best of people, and help them be better. But if they aren't willing to make any effort at all, sometimes you can lose the will to want to try to help.

Sorry I haven't been more insightful. I've found myself starting to skim read it a bit.