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Cranford
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Cranford ch 5-7
I really enjoyed Chapter V and the part about reading old letters... beautiful reflections on the passage of time and how fleeing life is. I just looked up how old Gaskell was when she penned this, and it came out when she was 43 which seems about right. Certain things you just can't fully realise until you live a little. Otherwise, things are still a bit too wild for me here. I've been reading the novel in small doses and consulting Wiki to remind myself who's who.
What is "the strict code of gentility "? I am having difficulties in understanding the thoughts about visiting expressed in chapter 7. Is one of the effects of the Industrial Revolution , losing this "code "?
Hi LindaWorking out and coming to grips with "the codes" of how to be, act, dress, interact and survive within Victorian society is, well, confusing at best, but mostly downright weird and puzzling at times.
May I suggest A Dictionary of Victorian London: An A-Z of the Great Metropolis, Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management and http://www.victorianlondon.org/cassel... as starters. They are both fun and informative, and yes, strange at times.
There are lots of wonderful bits on the Internet as well.
I am reading The Last Chronicle of Barset by Trollope right now and am both amazed and totally lost as to all the nuances of society.
The onslaught of industrialization during the Victorian period forced its new ways upon a social system that had been in place for centuries. As the railroad's speed changed how business, commerce and social mobility occurred, and how quickly those events could now happen, so society had to try and cope with many new realities that, if not happening over night, were happening year by year rather than century by century.
Indeed, the old codes were changing to reflect an entirely new social organization.
Peter wrote: "Hi LindaWorking out and coming to grips with "the codes" of how to be, act, dress, interact and survive within Victorian society is, well, confusing at best, but mostly downright weird and puzzli..."
Indeed it is. And one must also make very clear the difference between what many today believe and the actual practice.
Most modern readers think of the Victorian age as strait-laced, decorous, with rigid moral standards. And in some ways it was. But in others, definitely not; country house parties had the names of the guests posted on their doors to, it was said, facilitate the frequent late night visits which were a common aspect of these weekend parties. There is still much controversy over what Queen Victoria and John Brown did or didn't get up to, but recently discovered letters, not to mention her producing nine children, make clear that she was not a shrinking violet of a woman.
Thanks for the titles, Peter. The Victorian Web is a source I like and use, though obviously not enough. I read a bit about Visits, and I found a helpful rule of thumb in Victorian times: "Feast Made, Feast Take". I see that reciprocity could be a factor in the social lives of the Cranford ladies; they're not just being judgmental .Mrs. Beeton's book made me appreciate how much work it was to be a wife and manage a household then, before guests arrived in their own cars and meat could be purchased at the supermarket .
As far as that term that puzzled me, "the code of gentility ", it's just etiquette ...all those rules for behavior we don't even know we follow.
Linda wrote: "Mrs. Beeton's book made me appreciate how much work it was to be a wife and manage a household then, before guests arrived in their own cars and meat could be purchased at the supermarket . "True, but even the most modest family had at least one general servant of all work, as it seems all the ladies of Cranford do.
Does this minimum ...at least one servant to do the household work...help to define those considered genteel in Cranford ?
Everyman wrote: "True, but even the most modest family had at least one general servant of all work, as it seems all the ladies of Cranford do....""general servant of all work" -- I wonder what those words encompass -- all water carried in and out, all clothes scrubbed, rinsed, hung to dry, ironed, ..., chickens beheaded, plucked, and cleaned, probably not firewood chopped, but maybe ashes removed, ....?
Everyman wrote: "Linda wrote: "Mrs. Beeton's book made me appreciate how much work it was to be a wife and manage a household then, before guests arrived in their own cars and meat could be purchased at the superma..."As Everyman correctly notes, even a modest family would likely have a maid of all work. Often she would be not much more than a child in age and would be paid next to nothing. If she lived in, her own accommodation would be curled up in the kitchen, tucked in under a staircase or some other spot. Not much of a life, but no doubt better than what she would experience in her own home environment.
Lily has provided a very good job description for the servant of all work.
Thanks, Peter. That explains a lot.Exactly, Lily. Those are the jobs described in Ms Beeton's book. The TOC was overwhelming, but someday I want to read "General Observations on the Common
Hog". (For starters) Might help me appreciate those girls in Jude the Obscure. :) Indeed, and I mean this sincerely , I can see how reading Beeton's book might make me want to reread some Victorian titles.
Lily wrote: ""general servant of all work" -- I wonder what those words encompass -- all water carried in and out, all clothes scrubbed, rinsed, hung to dry, ironed, ..., chickens beheaded, plucked, and cleaned, probably not firewood chopped, but maybe ashes removed, ....?"All that and more! Cooking, washing up, bringing in coals, scrubbing floors, shopping, you name it.
When I went over to England in 1965, my widowed grandmother, comfortably off but not at all wealthy, lived in London with a servant who had been with her husband and her for decades. Edith lived in, and did basically everything around the house except the gardening.
Linda wrote: "The TOC was overwhelming"TOC?
Expand, please.
With regards to Peter's question as to what I found most revealing about Miss Matty's family letters, was how alone her mother was in her marriage. Her husband obviously had her up on some kind of pedestal, and the letters he wrote to her were not only incomprehensible to her, but directed at some woman who did not even exist! She wrote to him for practical advise (the hog) and received what to her must have sounded like utter nonsense in return. It was as if she herself was invisible to him. What a lonely life she must have had! (And his parents sound dreadful). His letters show how he changed from the warm, simple man he was before the marriage, and how she changed from a selfish greedy girl to a loving mother.
Peter wrote: "Hi LindaWorking out and coming to grips with "the codes" of how to be, act, dress, interact and survive within Victorian society is, well, confusing at best, but mostly downright weird and puzzli..."
Thank you for the book references; I am certainly going to read them, although I think that Victorian society was so elaborate and convoluted that we will never truly understand it. It reminds me somewhat of going to live in another country, like Japan or Korea, that has centuries of customs in its society that citizens are unconsciously aware of because they have been part of their lives since birth, but that newcomers must negotiate like a minefield.
Suki wrote: "Peter wrote: "Hi LindaWorking out and coming to grips with "the codes" of how to be, act, dress, interact and survive within Victorian society is, well, confusing at best, but mostly downright we..."
Yes. Letters do reveal much, both in fiction and in our own lives. We must, as you note, always keep in mind that the Victorian society was very different from our own. It was the latest step in the ongoing evolution of the social history of England. Such is the case with every society. Societies are both organic and in the present and rooted in the collective past and memory of the place or a country.
Everyman, Here are a few chapters listed in the Table of Contents: SAUCES, GRAVIES, PICKLES, AND FORCEMEATS. GENERAL REMARKS....RECIPES....VARIOUS MODES OF COOKING MEAT....GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON QUADRUPEDS....RECIPES....GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON THE SHEEP AND LAMB...RECIPES ....GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON THE COMMON HOG....RECIPES Chapters 9-17 out of 44.
I am looking at the Free Books version of Beeton's Book of Household Management, thus the run-on CAPS.
Is it ok to say I'm overwhelmed by reading the entire TOC? Without further expansion ?
I think Everyman maybe just meant that he didn't understand what TOC stood for (as indeed I did not). I see now that it means Table of Contents.
Understood , Nicole. I was just responding to the word "expand".
Nicole wrote: "I think Everyman maybe just meant that he didn't understand what TOC stood for (as indeed I did not). I see now that it means Table of Contents."That I find hard to believe of Eman! But, then, we all have crazy holes in the knowledge that somehow has passed our way. For me, it was Eman's allusion to Mrs. Grundy this past week.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mrs-...
LOL, we live in a world of acronyms. I googled TOC and could not find an explanation that made sense, but there were lots of possibilities. Thanks for sharing the explanation.
Linda wrote: "Everyman, Here are a few chapters listed in the Table of Contents: SAUCES, GRAVIES, PICKLES, AND FORCEMEATS. GENERAL REMARKS....RECIPES....VARIOUS MODES OF COOKING MEAT....GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON Q..."Ah. Yes.
Nicole wrote: "I think Everyman maybe just meant that he didn't understand what TOC stood for (as indeed I did not). I see now that it means Table of Contents."You're right. And I should have known, but the context didn't make it that clear to me. Blame it on having spent the day on the mainland at the eye doctor's and my eyes still being dilated and my brain a bit fried (as it always is when I have to go off island, which only happens a dozen or so times a year).
For those who haven't found it yet, here's an online version of Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management. Though it doesn't, sadly, include the illustrations, or at least not all of them. http://www.mrsbeeton.com/
It says 1861, which I think was the first edition; it's been edited many times since then, but is still in print.
Gutenberg also has it to download in various ebook formats, but again without illustrations.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10136
We talked a bit about the duties of a servant of all work. Here's what Mrs. Beeton says of her duties: (Too long for one post, will be continued in following posts)DUTIES OF THE MAID-OF-ALL-WORK.
2340. The general servant, or maid-of-all-work, is perhaps the only one of her class deserving of commiseration: her life is a solitary one, and in, some places, her work is never done. She is also subject to rougher treatment than either the house or kitchen-maid, especially in her earlier career: she starts in life, probably a girl of thirteen, with some small tradesman's wife as her mistress, just a step above her in the social scale; and although the class contains among them many excellent, kind-hearted women, it also contains some very rough specimens of the feminine gender, and to some of these it occasionally falls to give our maid-of-all-work her first lessons in her multifarious occupations: the mistress's commands are the measure of the maid-of-all-work's duties. By the time she has become a tolerable servant, she is probably engaged in some respectable tradesman's house, where she has to rise with the lark, for she has to do in her own person all the work which in larger establishments is performed by cook, kitchen-maid, and housemaid, and occasionally the part of a footman's duty, which consists in carrying messages.
2341. The general servant's duties commence by opening the shutters (and windows, if the weather permits) of all the lower apartments in the house; she should then brush up her kitchen-range, light the fire, clear away the ashes, clean the hearth, and polish with a leather the bright parts of the range, doing all as rapidly and as vigorously as possible, that no more time be wasted than is necessary. After putting on the kettle, she should then proceed to the dining-room or parlour to get it in order for breakfast. She should first roll up the rug, take up the fender, shake and fold up the table-cloth, then sweep the room, carrying the dirt towards the fireplace; a coarse cloth should then be laid down over the carpet, and she should proceed to clean the grate, having all her utensils close to her. When the grate is finished, the ashes cleared away, the hearth cleaned, and the fender put back in its place, she must dust the furniture, not omitting the legs of the tables and chairs; and if there are any ornaments or things on the sideboard, she must not dust round them, but lift them up on to another place, dust well where they have been standing, and then replace the things. Nothing annoys a particular mistress so much as to find, when she comes down stairs, different articles of furniture looking as if they had never been dusted. If the servant is at all methodical, and gets into a habit of doing a room in a certain way, she will scarcely ever leave her duties neglected. After the rug is put down, the table-cloth arranged, and everything in order, she should lay the cloth for breakfast, and then shut the dining-room door.
2342. The hall must now be swept, the mats shaken, the door-step cleaned, and any brass knockers or handles polished up with the leather. If the family breakfast very early, the tidying of the hall must then be deferred till after that meal. After cleaning the boots that are absolutely required, the servant should now wash her hands and face, put on a clean white apron, and be ready for her mistress when she comes down stairs. In families where there is much work to do before breakfast, the master of the house frequently has two pairs of boots in wear, so that they may be properly cleaned when the servant has more time to do them, in the daytime. This arrangement is, perhaps, scarcely necessary in the summer-time, when there are no grates to clean every morning; but in the dark days of winter it is only kind and thoughtful to lighten a servant-of-all-work's duties as much as possible.
[Illustration: BLACKING-BRUSH BOX.]
2343. She will now carry the urn into the dining-room, where her mistress will make the tea or coffee, and sometimes will boil the eggs, to insure them being done to her liking. In the mean time the servant cooks, if required, the bacon, kidneys, fish, &c.;—if cold meat is to be served, she must always send it to table on a clean dish, and nicely garnished with tufts of parsley, if this is obtainable.
2344. After she has had her own breakfast, and whilst the family are finishing theirs, she should go upstairs into the bedrooms, open all the windows, strip the clothes off the beds, and leave them to air whilst she is clearing away the breakfast things. She should then take up the crumbs in a dustpan from under the table, put the chairs in their places, and sweep up the hearth.
2345. The breakfast things washed up, the kitchen should be tidied, so that it may be neat when her mistress comes in to give the orders for the day: after receiving these orders, the servant should go upstairs again, with a jug of boiling water, the slop-pail, and two cloths. After emptying the slops, and scalding the vessels with the boiling water, and wiping them thoroughly dry, she should wipe the top of the wash-table and arrange it all in order. She then proceeds to make the beds, in which occupation she is generally assisted by the mistress, or, if she have any daughters, by one of them. Before commencing to make the bed, the servant should put on a large bed-apron, kept for this purpose only, which should be made very wide, to button round the waist and meet behind, while it should be made as long as the dress. By adopting this plan, the blacks and dirt on servants' dresses (which at all times it is impossible to help) will not rub off on to the bed-clothes, mattresses, and bed furniture. When the beds are made, the rooms should be dusted, the stairs lightly swept down, hall furniture, closets, &c., dusted. The lady of the house, where there is but one servant kept, frequently takes charge of the drawing-room herself, that is to say, dusting it; the servant sweeping, cleaning windows, looking-glasses, grates, and rough work of that sort. If there are many ornaments and knick-knacks about the room, it is certainly better for the mistress to dust these herself, as a maid-of-all-work's hands are not always in a condition to handle delicate ornaments.
2346. Now she has gone the rounds of the house and seen that all is in order, the servant goes to her kitchen to see about the cooking of the dinner, in which very often her mistress will assist her. She should put on a coarse apron with a bib to do her dirty work in, which may be easily replaced by a white one if required.
2347. Half an hour before dinner is ready, she should lay the cloth, that everything may be in readiness when she is dishing up the dinner, and take all into the dining-room that is likely to be required, in the way of knives, forks, spoons, bread, salt, water, &c. &c. By exercising a little forethought, much confusion and trouble may be saved both to mistress and servant, by getting everything ready for the dinner in good time.
2348. After taking in the dinner, when every one is seated, she removes the covers, hands the plates round, and pours out the beer; and should be careful to hand everything on the left side of the person she is waiting on.
2349. We need scarcely say that a maid-of-all-work cannot stay in the dining-room during the whole of dinner-time, as she must dish up her pudding, or whatever is served after the first course. When she sees every one helped, she should leave the room to make her preparations for the next course; and anything that is required, such as bread, &c., people may assist themselves to in the absence of the servant.
2350. When the dinner things are cleared away, the servant should sweep up the crumbs in the dining-room, sweep the hearth, and lightly dust the furniture, then sit down to her own dinner.
[Illustration: KNIFE-CLEANING MACHINE]
2351. After this, she washes up and puts away the dinner things, sweeps the kitchen, dusts and tidies it, and puts on the kettle for tea. She should now, before dressing herself for the afternoon, clean her knives, boots, and shoes, and do any other dirty work in the scullery that may be necessary. Knife-cleaning machines are rapidly taking the place, in most households, of the old knife-board. The saving of labour by the knife-cleaner is very great, and its performance of the work is very satisfactory. Small and large machines are manufactured, some cleaning only four knives, whilst others clean as many as twelve at once. Nothing can be more simple than the process of machine knife-cleaning; and although, in a very limited household, the substitution of the machine for the board may not be necessary, yet we should advise all housekeepers, to whom the outlay is not a difficulty, to avail themselves of the services of a machine. We have already spoken of its management in the "Duties of the Footman," No. 2177.
2352. When the servant is dressed, she takes in the tea, and after tea turns down the beds, sees that the water-jugs and bottles are full, closes the windows, and draws down the blinds. If the weather is very warm, these are usually left open until the last thing at night, to cool the rooms.
2353. The routine of a general servant's duties depends upon the kind of situation she occupies; but a systematic maid-of-all-work should so contrive to divide her work, that every day in the week may have its proper share. By this means she is able to keep the house clean with less fatigue to herself than if she left all the cleaning to do at the end of the week. Supposing there are five bedrooms in the house, two sitting-rooms, kitchen, scullery, and the usual domestic offices:—on Monday she should thoroughly clean the drawing-room; on Tuesday, two of the bedrooms; on Wednesday, two more; on Thursday, the other bedroom and stairs; on Friday morning she should sweep the dining-room very thoroughly, clean the hall, and in the afternoon her kitchen tins and bright utensils. By arranging her work in this manner, no undue proportion will fall to Saturday's share, and she will then have this day for cleaning plate, cleaning her kitchen, and arranging everything in nice order. The regular work must, of course, be performed in the usual manner, as we have endeavoured to describe.
2354. Before retiring to bed, she will do well to clean up glasses, plates, &c. which have been used for the evening meal, and prepare for her morning's work by placing her wood near the fire, on the hob, to dry, taking care there is no danger of it igniting, before she leaves the kitchen for the night. Before retiring, she will have to lock and bolt the doors, unless the master undertakes this office himself.
Remaining duties of maid of all work2355. If the washing, or even a portion of it, is done at home, it will be impossible for the maid-of-all-work to do her household duties thoroughly, during the time it is about, unless she have some assistance. Usually, if all the washing is done at home, the mistress hires some one to assist at the wash-tub, and sees to little matters herself, in the way of dusting, clearing away breakfast things, folding, starching, and ironing the fine things. With a little management much can be accomplished, provided the mistress be industrious, energetic, and willing to lend a helping hand. Let washing-week be not the excuse for having everything in a muddle; and although "things" cannot be cleaned so thoroughly, and so much time spent upon them, as ordinarily, yet the house may be kept tidy and clear from litter without a great deal of exertion either on the part of the mistress or servant. We will conclude our remarks with an extract from an admirably-written book, called "Home Truths for Home Peace." The authoress says, with respect to the great wash—"Amongst all the occasions in which it is most difficult and glorious to keep muddle out of a family, 'the great wash' stands pre-eminent; and as very little money is now saved by having everything done at home, many ladies, with the option of taking another servant or putting out the chief part of the washing, have thankfully adopted the latter course." She goes on to say—"When a gentleman who dines at home can't bear washing in the house, but gladly pays for its being done elsewhere, the lady should gratefully submit to his wishes, and put out anything in her whole establishment rather than put out a good and generous husband."
2356. A bustling and active girl will always find time to do a little needlework for herself, if she lives with consistent and reasonable people. In the summer evenings she should manage to sit down for two or three hours, and for a short time in the afternoon in leisure days. A general servant's duties are so multifarious, that unless she be quick and active, she will not be able to accomplish this. To discharge these various duties properly is a difficult task, and sometimes a thankless office; but it must be remembered that a good maid-of-all-work will make a good servant in any capacity, and may be safely taken not only without fear of failure, but with every probability of giving satisfaction to her employer.
Anybody now feel like they would have enjoyed being employed as a maid of all work in Cranford??
Everyman wrote: "Anybody now feel like they would have enjoyed being employed as a maid of all work in Cranford??"Everyman
Certainly not. Thanks for this detailed post.
Thanks for posting some of Beeton. Her text is ordered very tidily, and I like how she adds her spin/advice. Scenes from a few books came to mind as I read, eg Mr Cratchit's daughter getting the day off so she can be with her family...not so easy at the house employing her.
I've used TOC all my working life, (editorial) it never occurred to me until now that it wouldn't be familiar to book people in general. But then, I live in my own happy bubble most of the time. :)
Everyman wrote: "When I went over to England in 1965, my widowed grandmother, comfortably off but not at all wealthy, lived in London with a servant who had been with her husband and her for decades. Edith lived in, and did basically everything around the house except the gardening."Out of interest what was the relationship like between your grandmother and her maid? Although it is obviously a different era, I find the dynamics between the servants and the household quietly fascinating. It often isn't explored too much in the Victorian novels as they tend to focus on one class or the other, but it is interesting to think about living for long periods of someone who must know all the intimate details of your life, but has incredibly strict rules about how to interact with you.
In the early chapters we see Miss Matty who is portrayed I think as harmless and good natured, has the power to forbid her maid from having a boyfriend (although obviously the maids in her case ignore this rule, but perhaps couldn't when her more authoritative sister was in control?).
Then in this section of the novel, we see Miss Barker feels she has to cover the close relationship she has with her maid, even though her visiters, and our mysterious narrator, are aware of it.
I found the section with the letters very moving. The picture of Miss Matty going through them by candlelight with her friend as she perhaps feels her own death is nearing and that no one will care for them after she goes, so she wishes to dispose of them herself, is so sad. Burning the last traces of her parents and siblings seems so difficult.I always feel personally nostalgic that the letter writing age appears to be over now, something written in a person's own hand that has survived over the ages is such a powerful conduit to history and the continuity of the human spirit.
On the technical side, the letter writing technique allows us to see flashes of voices not filtered through the narrator's perception. At this stage of the novel I am curious but accepting of the narrator as a younger person who writes as if she's connected to the Cranford world, but because she is a visitor can make wry comments and observations that the ladies themselves probably never would. There are so many small beautiful moments, such as Miss Matty refusing to tell the narrator about many of Peter's exploits because she thinks the narrotor would find them amusing. I think this speaks a lot about their relationship.
Clari wrote: "Everyman wrote: "When I went over to England in 1965, my widowed grandmother, comfortably off but not at all wealthy, lived in London with a servant who had been with her husband and her for decade..."Hi Clari
The episode with Miss Matty and her maid is certainly done with both sympathy and insight. I also found the manner that chapter 6 ended to be both quite touching and revealing. In the ending we have a focus on sounds, real or perceived. Matty says she is worried that "it fidgets me that we have never put on a mourning for [Peter]" and at times she thinks she hears "his step coming up the street, and my heart begins to flutter and beat; but the sound always goes past - and Peter never comes." At the very end of the chapter we are told that there were other curious sounds. In this instance, Matty, referring to Martha who is not home, says "I heard a strange noise just as I was opening the door ... it sounded like ... kissing."
Sounds play a very important part in this chapter. It might be wise to listen carefully ...
Clari wrote: "I found the section with the letters very moving. The picture of Miss Matty going through them by candlelight with her friend as she perhaps feels her own death is nearing and that no one will care..."Hi again, Clari
I agree. The art of writing letters, the joy of receiving letters, and the worlds of insight and revelation found within letters seems fast fading in our electronic march into the future. You are so right in how letters can give us "flashes of voices."
Peter wrote: "The art of writing letters, the joy of receiving letters, and the worlds of insight and revelation found within letters seems fast fading in our electronic march into the future. You are so right in how letters can give us "flashes of voices." ..."Don't know if this is true, but somehow it feels to me as if our current modes, except for facebook like slogan posts, lend themselves more to expression of anger, sarcasm, and even humor than did letter writing. Does kindness, tenderness, courtesy,... demand we slow down, that we reflect? Or can it be out there, too, quick and in the face?
Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "The art of writing letters, the joy of receiving letters, and the worlds of insight and revelation found within letters seems fast fading in our electronic march into the future. You ..."Hi Lily
I think the world of short bursts of characters from a keypad that can then be broadcast to everyone in the world leads to less thought and reflection. Then there is the issue of anonymity which allows trolls to flourish tends to disrupt the act of sending messages as well. I think electronic transmissions that take the place handwritten letters tend to be, on the whole, done in more haste and with less thought and reflection. A letter writer in the 19C looked upon their letter as important since communication among people was less frequent, and therefore demanded more thought than the rapid fire missives of many people today today.
The entire range of human emotions can be found in letters and it seems to me that letters demand the writer reflect more on what is being said.
Of course I paint these comments with a wide brush, but when I read 19C letters that exist between people who are not "famous" and compare them to what I see and read on line today, our earlier ancestors seem to win the day in the art of writing.
Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "The art of writing letters, the joy of receiving letters, and the worlds of insight and revelation found within letters seems fast fading in our electronic march into the future. You ..."I don't know if it is off subject or not, but hopefully still interesting, one of the growing areas of research in science is empathy. Evolutionary scientists believe that empathy is one of the basic qualities we are born with, I think I recall 95% of people(ignoring psychopaths) have it inately. But there is concern that across the 20th century the focus became too much on the individual particularly in Western culture, and that technology is contributing this focus on self, we aren't using it to connect but to boost our own ego and sense of identity. Increasingly you see people sitting together and instead of talking they are all staring at their electronic gadgets.
This is leading some psychologists to encourage, as you mention, slowing down, focusing on the people immediately around you, teaching the skills of 'active listening', and also thinking beyond our surroundings to the people who pick our food, make our clothes, collect our rubbishes, in an attempt to reengage us as a society rather than a group of individuals.
Peter wrote: "Of course I paint these comments with a wide brush, but when I read 19C letters that exist between people who are not "famous" and compare them to what I see and read on line today, our earlier ancestors seem to win the day in the art of writing..."This is an interesting point, Peter. My father in law is insistant that people have gone backwards based on comparing letters of ordinary letters home from soldiers in WWI to what people in their twenties post on twitter nowadays.
It could be just language is mutating, as it always does, and speed is now favoured over eloquence, or our intellectual skills are being pushed in different areas, the arts are seen as luxury and science and maths necessarry. But it does open the whole linguistic debate over how much our langauge reflects who we are as a society.
Which is seen nicely in this novel where Miss Matty believes her sister's letters are of incredible literature merit, whereas the narrator as trouble to keep focused during them. Our personal prejudices is always at play in what we favour and are drawn to :)
Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "Of course I paint these comments with a wide brush, but when I read 19C letters that exist between people who are not "famous" and compare them to what I see and read on line today, o..."Hi Clari
I do not think you are off topic at all. Indeed, I think the comments are central to the novel. You use the word "empathy." I find this word to be a central motif in the novel. Whether it be Matty destroying letters, the town's seemingly quaint or silly social rules of conduct, the fact that as the novel progresses our yet-unnamed narrator is slowly becoming more aware and understanding of the people around her or the fact that Peter's attempt to be funny by dressing up as someone else is seen as a horrible breach of etiquette and lack of understanding and that one should never mock or even attempt to be or portray someone else, the novel is embued with examples of how we should properly interact with others.
We do not, regretfully, have the scope of time to reflect deeply on letters vs. electronic posts but your point on letters from the war is both fascinating and insightful.
Mod
The letters are killing me, though. Poor Peter about killed me. And then his father's grief and regret. Oh, oh! I agree with Clari's comments about the poignancy of Miss Matty reading through and burning each at her time of life.
What a lovely book this is turning out to be!
Clari wrote: Out of interest what was the relationship like between your grandmother and her maid? ."Well, I was only 17 at the time and not very astute about unfamiliar relationships, but I would say the main thing was a sense of co-dependency. Each needed the other. But it was still definitely a mistress/servant relationship.
Renee wrote: "The letters are killing me, though. Poor Peter about killed me. And then his father's grief and regret..."I was hoping it would actually be Peter that Matty heard at the end of the chapter, whereas normally I shy away from such overt sentimentality in the book, but I really want Matty to be happy.
Everyman wrote: "Well, I was only 17 at the time and not very astute about unfamiliar relationships, but I woul..."Thanks for the reply, Everyman, it can be such an interesting dynamic in novels, from Jeeves and Wooster, where Jeeves is so obviously in charge of his 'Master' to Margaret Atwood's 'Alias Grace'. In this novel I feel Martha and Matty have quite a nice relationship, although Martha obviously is working hours that make us in the twentieth first century shudder at and perhaps can only be supported by a strict class system.
Clari wrote: "Martha obviously is working hours that make us in the twentieth first century shudder at..."Not of you're an associate attorney hoping to make partner. [g]
In my rereading I found a subtle clue to the narrator's identity in chapter 5. “An old gentleman of my acquaintance, who took the intelligence of the failure of a Joint-Stock Bank, in which some of his money was invested, with stoical mildness..."
I know, opaque subtle, but still, there is much more of the narrator in the earliest chapters than I realized.
Linda wrote: "In my rereading I found a subtle clue to the narrator's identity in chapter 5. “An old gentleman of my acquaintance, who took the intelligence of the failure of a Joint-Stock Bank, in which some ..."
It is interesting the clues and subtleties that you miss on a first read. Is your enjoyment of the novel different the second time around?
Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: "Martha obviously is working hours that make us in the twentieth first century shudder at..."Not of you're an associate attorney hoping to make partner. [g]"
Hopefully the associate attorney will be rewarded more than a Victorian maid though! :)
Clari, There are two differences that jump out at me as I read it again. First, it's no longer slow-going in the beginning. I am attuned to every detail. Second, I feel more acutely the narrator's presence. This seems due, not so much to knowing her identity, as to knowing the depths of Miss Matty's character.
At the tea party Miss Barker gives the narrator some illustrated books "“observing, as she put a little table and a candle for my especial benefit, that she knew young people liked to look at pictures. "The narrator sounds like the child who would visit her aunts and not the young woman who writes Miss Matty.
What's the time frame in this novel, and are the events in linear order? Just throwing out this question.
Linda wrote: "At the tea party Miss Barker gives the narrator some illustrated books "“observing, as she put a little table and a candle for my especial benefit, that she knew young people liked to look at pictu..."Your question on the time frame is an interesting one. It is also one that I don't have an immediate answer to. Sorry.
Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
A Dictionary of Victorian London: An A-Z of the Great Metropolis (other topics)Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management (other topics)
The Last Chronicle of Barset (other topics)
In a letter to John Forster on 9 March 1852 Dickens wrote "Don't you think Mrs. Gaskell charming? With one considered thing that looks like a want of natural perception, I think it masterly." While this specific letter is referring to Gaskell's novel Ruth, there is no question that Dickens finds pleasure with both Gaskell and her work.
In this week's chapters Miss Matty goes through a selection of the family letters with the narrator who comments "I never knew what sad work the reading of old letters was before that evening." The letters referred to chronicle a part of Miss Matty's life, just as the novel Cranford is, in part, a history of Gaskell's childhood memories of her life.
What did you find most revealing, most interesting, and most shocking upon reading the letters of Matty's family?
Can you think of other letters from authors you are aware of that reveal their feelings about their work, their personal lives or the society the lived in?
What are your initial impressions of "Poor Peter" and Deborah?
As we read through the novel it becomes apparent that the clothes people own, how they care for those clothes, and how they wear them reveals much about their character. For example, Peter's wearing of another's clothes both suggests his playful nature and triggers a series of events that flow through the novel. How did you respond to the the cycle of clothing that begins with his wearing of another's clothes and ends with his mother being buried wearing a shawl that he sent her?
We are off to a good start in our hunt for clues regarding the narrative voice in the novel. Do we learn anything more about who she is or her background in this week's reading?
Let's hear your own ideas and insights too!